Bashing The Legacies

[CaptainMark]

deleted again

 

[GuppyWN]

Mark, I can tell by your posts that you are bitter that SWA didn't hire you. It's OK, bro. Life can't be that bad at FedEX.

Gup

 

[CaptainMark]

Mark, I can tell by your posts that you are bitter that SWA didn't hire you. It's OK, bro. Life can't be that bad at FedEX.

Gup

gee..where do i sign up for that commuter job..a pay cut..no retirement..and to fly little airplanes...if you look at my avatar you'll see a 737 stuck in one of my tires!!! all in fun GUP..be safe

 

[ivauir]

Maybe this should be a new thread, I don't know. We touched on it here, so here goes:

Why continue to give people low fares? Are they not low enough? SWA's average fare last year was less than $100. $100 bucks! That is ridiculous.

We are not the ones offering our product below our cost.

.... You can grow indefinitly and have very little to worry about. Your only enemy (if you have one) is yourselves. Case in point: Your leadership is worried about costs and is out looking for savings (yes that is their job) and some have advanced the theory of pay cuts for you. I have not heard anyone in our leaership say ANYTHING about pay cuts. That could change overnight, but so far it has not some up. I say no way, don't take pay cuts. I'm glad you make the big bucks and hope to see it emulated in CAL pilot contracts of the future. Although it stands in sharp contrast to the overall SWA pilot sentiment toward legacy pilots, I will not be invigorated in the least if SWA pilots end up taking a pay cut. Don't do it. Raise the fares and take the money. I promise, we will all go along with you, even NWA. Lets start charging people for this flying stuff like it matters to us.

... Why does the SWA group so easily buy into the idea that we should work longer to make a good retirement? Heck with that. Lets get the dollars now and then decide if we want to work. Then it is an actual "choice" or alternative, when you don't have to do work longer.

Not every SWA pilots supports changing the age 60 rule (I don't).

I understand your concerns, but I think (right now) SWA is a ray of sunshine in an otherwise cloudy industry. The ppl are well paid, the stock holders get a good return on their money, and the public is well served. We have raised fares last year and I imagine we will again this year, but probably not in the way you imagine. We will raise them enough to continue to generate a good return on our investment, no more.

All of this could change tomorrow, and maybe the company will ask for a pay cut in the upcoming section 6, but so far they haven't. We'll al just have to wait and see how that plays out.

I keep hoping that the legacy pilots will stop seeing us as the enemy: instead of asking SWA pilots why we don't do it more like legacy pilots, ask your manegement why they don't do it more like SWA manegment. Why deserve to be paid so much more than SWA manegment?

 

[Flopgut]

Yes I know you are not below cost. And we have a horrible problem with our mgts at legacies. Bad mgt is so ingrained in our businesses that I'm sure it is going to continue to be a problem for a good while. Keeping age 60 as a retirement age is one thing I see as a solution to this. We need new people interacting with the company in the pilot personel ranks. Pushing new standards and philosophies from the bottom up. Our most senior pilots CAL have been through some tough times and they have seen the airline get better, but they have never really seen an airline be successful. So how they define success doesn't actually meet with real success. They are good folks, I wish em well, but they need to go.

SWA attacks the market like an outsider. Demonstratively superior with regard to price. Your company is sound but things are changing. They are looking for savings and finding a little, but you guys wrote the book on that, so what else are you going to do? Figuratively speaking: you can only taxi that much faster! You have to go to the revenue side and you might as well do that before anyone talks about a pay cut.

Beyond that, what I'm saying is: Airfares are embarrassingly cheap! I don't care what airline it is, this is the silliest crap in the whole economy! How about, before the pendullum swings, we all decide to change the fares to, not just change with inflation, but SURGE into numbers that make it look like we aren't a bunch of intinerant workers.

 

[Gorilla]

We (pilots) are our own worst enemy. Maybe we should abuse Exxon; airline revenues from last year would have been black but for the cost of fuel. The TEN BILLION in ONE LOUSY QUARTER achieved by Exxon came right off our books as well as at the mogas pumps. Our industry is too stupid to price its product appropriately.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

I have always wondered why the government doesn't implement a mandatory fuel surcharge. I believe Europe has this.

 

[Boeingman]

Keeping age 60 as a retirement age is one thing I see as a solution to this. We need new people interacting with the company in the pilot personel ranks. Pushing new standards and philosophies from the bottom up. Our most senior pilots CAL have been through some tough times and they have seen the airline get better, but they have never really seen an airline be successful. So how they define success doesn't actually meet with real success. They are good folks, I wish em well, but they need to go.

Here you go again with your diatribe of senior CAL folks being the problem ad nauseam. Let me tell you pal, I have run into more of the junior, recently returned furloughed pilots who voted yes out of fear for the recent contract than the senior guys I know. Who has denegrated whom?

Did you look at the seniority of the guys on the NC? Are these guys the types of new thinking you want? Come up with some better arguments fro your age 60 ideals and philosophies.

 

[Falconjet]

Move

I have always wondered why the government doesn't implement a mandatory fuel surcharge. I believe Europe has this.

Why don't you move to "Europe" and find out?

FJ

 

[Flopgut]

Here you go again with your diatribe of senior CAL folks being the problem ad nauseam. Let me tell you pal, I have run into more of the junior, recently returned furloughed pilots who voted yes out of fear for the recent contract than the senior guys I know. Who has denegrated whom?

Did you look at the seniority of the guys on the NC? Are these guys the types of new thinking you want? Come up with some better arguments fro your age 60 ideals and philosophies.

The NC (as a whole) is junior to you I suppose. They are senior to me. Logically then, continued retirements will move folks my seniority closer to the NC and other policy level positions. This is a good thing. I promise, I have a much better vision for your career than you have for mine. I have seen a successful business and I have seen a successful union, we aren't even close! To be fair, it is very hard to take someone from PE, NYA, TI, striker or non-striker and explain to them how a successful company/union functions and it is not their fault. About all you can do with someone that went through all that is let them retire. The 25 (or so) year folks are doing OK in the CARP and they get a 100% lump sum.

At CAL we are lucky things are going as well as they are. The only way to fairly characterize our airline is to view it a startup from the second BK. In that respect, we are doing pretty good. But we can do better and retirements are one big thing that will help.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

I've been told our new procedures at Southwest (checklist usage) maybe used at other carriers, we did most of that work with our SNORT team along with NASA.

Those checklist procedures were at ATA when they got the 737-800. Well before SNORT got them all ironed out. Not something new.


That said, I am very impressed with how SWA has slowly been adapting and improving flight ops training. Transition from a 737-200 oriented way of flying to a 737-700 way has been steady and very professional.

 

[Boeingman]

The NC (as a whole) is junior to you I suppose. They are senior to me. Logically then, continued retirements will move folks my seniority closer to the NC and other policy level positions. This is a good thing. I promise, I have a much better vision for your career than you have for mine. I have seen a successful business and I have seen a successful union, we aren't even close! To be fair, it is very hard to take someone from PE, NYA, TI, striker or non-striker and explain to them how a successful company/union functions and it is not their fault. About all you can do with someone that went through all that is let them retire. The 25 (or so) year folks are doing OK in the CARP and they get a 100% lump sum.

At CAL we are lucky things are going as well as they are. The only way to fairly characterize our airline is to view it a startup from the second BK. In that respect, we are doing pretty good. But we can do better and retirements are one big thing that will help.

But you're missing my earlier points on two fronts. One some very junior people that you espouse to replace us "old" guys with, I see doing as much damage today due to ignorance and fear. Two, you lose points in your quest to put out to pasture the senior guys with your age 60 beliefs by convaluding the argument that a changing of the guard will rightside things. See prior point.

New blood is not automatically good blood. Frankly, I am kind of worried about the airline I am leaving soon (hint I am not for age 60 extension) seeing the attiutdes of the junior folks on property. My vision for the juniors guys is probably in line with yours. I however vehemently disagree with your ideals on how to accomplish that vis a vis tunring this into your crusade to keep age 60. They are not one in the same.

 

[Flopgut]

But you're missing my earlier points on two fronts. One some very junior people that you espouse to replace us "old" guys with, I see doing as much damage today due to ignorance and fear. Two, you lose points in your quest to put out to pasture the senior guys with your age 60 beliefs by convaluding the argument that a changing of the guard will rightside things. See prior point.

New blood is not automatically good blood. Frankly, I am kind of worried about the airline I am leaving soon (hint I am not for age 60 extension) seeing the attiutdes of the junior folks on property. My vision for the juniors guys is probably in line with yours. I however vehemently disagree with your ideals on how to accomplish that vis a vis tunring this into your crusade to keep age 60. They are not one in the same.

I agree they are not the same. New blood is not automatically good. There are some senior guys I'd really like to see stay, or for that matter, come back from retirement. And there are plenty of junior bozos. However, while I agree this is about more than no age change for better times, think about to what extent the opposite is true. An age change to 65 automatically MAROONS a legion of junior guys to the bottom who want to contribute but will not advance for the want of seniority. You know as well as I do you don't move up around here until you have been a captain for a while. Then next Chester is going to have to come from my generation (If there is going to be anyone that good again) and our next good group of IAH union leadership is probably not going to come from anyone currently among contenders for the positions.

 

[RVFlier1]

All in the same boat

I was hired in '98 to the back seat of the 727 for a legacy carrier, I won't mention it's name but the initials are Northwest Airlines - went to the Airbus, then 9-11 - went to the DC9, then last year things started looking up and went back to the Airbus, now back on the DC9. I'm not unmindful that there are a lot of people in a worse off position than I am, but at my age (42) this is giving me ulcers - the uncertainty that this company or ANY airline or flying job for that matter will be strong enough to be around when I'm ready to retire. Richard Branson is set to start Virgin America next year, just what we need, another low cost competitor. China is up and coming, so how much longer before foreign ownship comes into this complicated equation? And you have to have known that it would only be a matter of time before Jet Blue began losing money - and they reported that today. How soon before they go to their employees and try to do what NWA mngmt is doing to us? How soon before SWA starts losing money and goes to their employees to subsidize passenger flying? We earn every penny we make. What other job is your job in jeapordy in terms of having to pass a rigid medical exam once or twice a year, or having an incident because of bad weather helped by the fact that the company is making you work a 13 hour day with 5 or 6 legs and 4 plane changes and then a minimal nights rest and still asking you to work for less pay and benefits? Or NWA saying "we care about our employees. We will give them every consideration to rehire them at this new airline we're forming for half or less the pay after it took them 10, 15 or more years to get where they are now."
Doctors and lawyers put in many years and dollars to get their degrees and make good pay and have good security as their reward. Learning to fly is just as or is more expensive than Med or law school, but the reward or justification to put in the time and expense to become a pilot is all but gone. I'm sorry to be such a whiner here, but where does it end? Am I the only one who sees it this way? The greedy CEO's and mngmt of these companies truly step on and use their employees and the public to line their own beds and get their golden parachutes and are so well compensated that they just don't care what happens in the long run to others. I don't know if there is an answer, if NWA pilots strike, yes the company closes it's doors forever, but top managment is set, do they really care about that? They will be well compensated and will have job offers worth millions waiting for them, while the lowly grunts will start over at minimum wages again at age 53. Plus people with billions of $$ laying around will say "Hey, now is a great time to start a new discount airline and line my bed!" etc etc. I feel as long as people demand low prices like Wal Mart advertises, there's not an answer out there for this problem.

 

[SWA/FO]

gee..where do i sign up for that commuter job..a pay cut..no retirement..and to fly little airplanes...if you look at my avatar you'll see a 737 stuck in one of my tires!!! all in fun GUP..be safe

You got any new material? Try to come up with something new on your next sort. You'll have pleanty of time.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

I was hired in '98 to the back seat of the 727 for a legacy carrier, I won't mention it's name but the initials are Northwest Airlines - went to the Airbus, then 9-11 - went to the DC9, then last year things started looking up and went back to the Airbus, now back on the DC9. I'm not unmindful that there are a lot of people in a worse off position than I am, but at my age (42) this is giving me ulcers - the uncertainty that this company or ANY airline or flying job for that matter will be strong enough to be around when I'm ready to retire. Richard Branson is set to start Virgin America next year, just what we need, another low cost competitor. China is up and coming, so how much longer before foreign ownship comes into this complicated equation? And you have to have known that it would only be a matter of time before Jet Blue began losing money - and they reported that today. How soon before they go to their employees and try to do what NWA mngmt is doing to us? How soon before SWA starts losing money and goes to their employees to subsidize passenger flying? We earn every penny we make. What other job is your job in jeapordy in terms of having to pass a rigid medical exam once or twice a year, or having an incident because of bad weather helped by the fact that the company is making you work a 13 hour day with 5 or 6 legs and 4 plane changes and then a minimal nights rest and still asking you to work for less pay and benefits? Or NWA saying "we care about our employees. We will give them every consideration to rehire them at this new airline we're forming for half or less the pay after it took them 10, 15 or more years to get where they are now."
Doctors and lawyers put in many years and dollars to get their degrees and make good pay and have good security as their reward. Learning to fly is just as or is more expensive than Med or law school, but the reward or justification to put in the time and expense to become a pilot is all but gone. I'm sorry to be such a whiner here, but where does it end? Am I the only one who sees it this way? The greedy CEO's and mngmt of these companies truly step on and use their employees and the public to line their own beds and get their golden parachutes and are so well compensated that they just don't care what happens in the long run to others. I don't know if there is an answer, if NWA pilots strike, yes the company closes it's doors forever, but top managment is set, do they really care about that? They will be well compensated and will have job offers worth millions waiting for them, while the lowly grunts will start over at minimum wages again at age 53. Plus people with billions of $$ laying around will say "Hey, now is a great time to start a new discount airline and line my bed!" etc etc. I feel as long as people demand low prices like Wal Mart advertises, there's not an answer out there for this problem.

Brand Scope fixes all of these problems.

 

[CaptainMark]

You got any new material? Try to come up with something new on your next sort. You'll have pleanty of time.

edited for improper joke...

 

[Flopgut]

I was hired in '98 to the back seat of the 727 for a legacy carrier, I won't mention it's name but the initials are Northwest Airlines - went to the Airbus, then 9-11 - went to the DC9, then last year things started looking up and went back to the Airbus, now back on the DC9. I'm not unmindful that there are a lot of people in a worse off position than I am, but at my age (42) this is giving me ulcers -quote]


Good post. My health is about toast. At this point, I just hope my first heart attack doesn't kill me. This business has become a sick, wicked master. Check out the latest from Duane:

January 31, 2006​

ALPA's President, Capt. Duane E. Woerth, issued the following statement on the Air Transportation Stabilization Board's prediction of a $300 million profit for 2006. Congress authorized the ATSB to provide loan guarantees to airlines struggling in the aftermath of the 9/11 terrorist attacks. "Tonight, President Bush will report on the State of the Union. One thing he will not mention, however, is how his administration has failed to support the airline industry and its workers.
"The latest proof is the ATSB's disclosure of an outrageous anticipated profit of $300 million. This profit is an insult to every airline employee who has contributed to the billions in pay concessions and has endured severe reductions or total loss of their pensions, all while working longer hours and paying more for health care.
"Congress charged the ATSB with reinforcing the airline industry as it recovered from the devastating blows wrought by the 9/11 terrorist attacks. The shutdown of the U.S. airspace system and dramatic fall-off in air traffic in the wake of 9/11 created an economic disaster for the industry.
"Like other disasters, both natural and economic, Americans turned to the federal government for assistance. Congress authorized the ATSB to issue $10 billion in loan guarantees to help the reeling airline industry, especially United Airlines and American Airlines, who lost four aircraft and 33 valiant employees on that horrific day. The ATSB has utterly failed to deliver. It has withheld 84 percent of these funds, making only $1.6 billion in loan guarantees to a handful of carriers.
"On top of its failure, the ATSB is now crowing about turning a profit on their inaction. It is the height of cynical hypocrisy for them to boast about a profit largely based on the ATSB's remarketing of these loans, as well as the sale of airline stock and warrants they received from the few airlines that did obtain a guarantee. Imagine what their profit would have been had they aided United in its darkest hours and now owned UAL stock. The political appointees who oversaw this program should hide in shame."

He is actually showing some testes, and he is right! At some point we have to do something. Form a guild, consortium or cartel or something for everyone that flies 121. See that air fares supplement all carrier's pilot contracts and retirements. This ATSB stuff is just about the same sort of thing that got Boston Harbor filled with tea!

 

[SWA/FO]

CaptainMark,

I thought 121 Pilots could not fly past 60 years old? Oh, Your a Fed Ex pilot in your 30's, man you look tired.....Enjoy your SORT. Maybe you and brokeback usnfdx can share a lazy-boy.

 

[AAflyer]

CaptainMark,

I thought 121 Pilots could not fly past 60 years old? Oh, Your a Fed Ex pilot in your 40's, man you look tired.....Enjoy your SORT. Maybe you and brokeback usnfdx can share a lazy-boy.

Uhhh, I thought it was your airline that pilots couldn't wait to take their cloths of in.

AA

 

[USNFDX]

CaptainMark,

I thought 121 Pilots could not fly past 60 years old? Oh, Your a Fed Ex pilot in your 40's, man you look tired.....Enjoy your SORT. Maybe you and brokeback usnfdx can share a lazy-boy.

SWA/FO I was talking to one my SWA buds the other day. You are an "embarrassment" to them. They really wish you would just shut the blank up. Apparently they cringed with each post. It really is amazing...1200+ posts, you talk a lot but never actually post anything useful.

But hey, if it makes you feel better .......

SWA/FO is 100% correct. Southwest Airlines is the absolute best airline ever, no the best company ever. There is no better place on Earth, no make that the Universe to work...nothing even close! They have the best pay, best work rules, the best airplanes, the best management, the best pilots, the prettiest airplanes, the world's greatest destinations, the best baggage handlers, best peanuts, the best TV show, the best procedures, the best toilet paper, and the absolute best F/O in SWA/FO................What I'd miss? Oh yeah military guys, particularly NAVY guys suck and have no place flying these big and complex commercial jets!

There, we agree with you on everything, no need for another 1200 posts

 

[CaptainMark]

CaptainMark,

I thought 121 Pilots could not fly past 60 years old? Oh, Your a Fed Ex pilot in your 40's, man you look tired.....Enjoy your SORT. Maybe you and brokeback usnfdx can share a lazy-boy.

sorry dude..i am only 36..you are just an old FO..now go preflight your tiny jet!!!

 

[SWA/FO]

Now, I'm old? But I don't look 60.

I've edited the above statement to correct it to your current age. Thanks..

SWA/FO I was talking to one my SWA buds the other day. You are an "embarrassment" to them. They really wish you would just shut the blank up. Apparently they cringed with each post

Finally some true fans... You guys still would not like me if my name was UAL/FO or FDX/FE......thats alright, I really don't care. I call it like it is....if your sensitive boyfriends can't handle it, let me know and I'll take them off my fan club list.

 

[CaptainMark]

i don't mind swafo...we go back and forth..but this idiot mnapha killed southwest on the other thread..i cannot believe you have not responded...his quote is below

he wrote:
Jesus nowonder why SWA is parking in gas stations and highways nowadays!!

 

[Hvy]

gee..where do i sign up for that commuter job..a pay cut..no retirement..and to fly little airplanes...if you look at my avatar you'll see a 737 stuck in one of my tires!!! all in fun GUP..be safe

Ahhh...so that's what it is. I thought that you had ran over a minivan.

 

[Hvy]

Now, I'm old? But I don't look 60.

I've edited the above statement to correct it to your current age. Thanks..



Finally some true fans... You guys still would not like me if my name was UAL/FO or FDX/FE......thats alright, I really don't care. I call it like it is....if your sensitive boyfriends can't handle it, let me know and I'll take them off my fan club list.

Nope...you're just a jerk.

 

[SWA/FO]

You don't even know me hvy.. What have I said on this thread that has hurt your feelings? Please tell me! I think your too sensitive.

 

[SWA/FO]

captianMark,

I can't be everywhere... I'll have to look into this post. My SWAPA army will show up soon, with some help........ok, maybe not?

 

[Hvy]

You don't even know me hvy.. What have I said on this thread that has hurt your feelings? Please tell me! I think your too sensitive.

Nor would I care to be acquainted with you. That being said, nothing you could possibly say would "hurt my feelings." Your posts speak for themselves as to the type of person you are. If someone made similar posts as UAL/FO or GuppyUAL I would be embarrassed to think that they were representative of our company. I'm sure that your fellow SWA guys feel the same way about you. Part of that 5% someone was mentioning earlier.

 

[Flopgut]

Guys, I was trying to have a legitimate meltdown here...Remember?....ATSB: Bad...Discuss...