barrel roll in a piper

[Flyin Tony]

Anyone *know of anyone* that has done a barrel roll in a piper? Does this put lots of stress on the plane? Its not like im going to go out and do it!!!! So no flame

 

[TrafficInSight]

I'm sure it's been done... I'm sure people have gotten away with it. I've seen a photo. That makes it stupid AND unoriginal

 

[Lead Sled]

Anyone *know of anyone* that has done a barrel roll in a piper? Does this put lots of stress on the plane? Its not like im going to go out and do it!!!! So no flame

Tony, you can roll any airplane and IF yo do it properly it's a 1-G manuever. (I'm sure everyone's seen the photo of Bob Hoover pouring a glass of iced tea while he's rolling his Shrike Commander.) The problem is not everyone can do it properly and you can easily end up putting stresses on the airplane that it wasn't designed for - hence the requirement for aerobatic certification and parachutes.

'Sled

 

[avernas]

Never done it personally, but have heard some stories of it. Apparently, it does not put much stress on the plane at all if you do it right, just remember to pitch down a little when inverted to keep the nose up.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Done it, legally. Just depends on when & how the Piper was certified. There are quite a few Cubs still flying that you could "legally" roll.

Please don't follow Avernas' advice since these are not negative G machines. Just pitch the nose up a good 10 degrees and keep her coming around. She'll fall through 10 degrees below the horizon and just let the airplane resume natural stability wings level. Not a whole lot of fun, but eh.'

Your time and money are better spent actually learning something in a Citabria with a decent acro instructor. No real need to turn anything upside down and you'll probably ruin someone else's gyros. In the T-34 it cost us around $800 to fix the airplane after someone did acro with the gyro power on.

 

[Traumahawk]

Never done it personally, but have heard some stories of it. Apparently, it does not put much stress on the plane at all if you do it right, just remember to pitch down a little when inverted to keep the nose up.

????

Yea if you'd like the engine to maybe sputter and the breather to really start "breathing". People have a tendency to "fixate" "overdo" and even "exxagerate" directions when doing things like aerobatics that they are unfamiliar with. These directions aren't for a properly done aileron roll or barrel roll.

I would say pitch it up and roll the aeileron in the direction desired positively and HOLD IT IN until its time to roll out while the nose slowly falls back down....but on second thought, i'd just tell them to go find a citabria, pitts, or even a 152 aerobat if they wanna screw around.

I mean, who knows how many people have "tried" to do it and f--ed up and pulled though etc.... Bend a tin can enough times..........

T-hawk

 

[VNugget]

PA-28 roll, split-S, loop

 

[typhoonpilot]

Anyone *know of anyone* that has done a barrel roll in a piper? Does this put lots of stress on the plane? Its not like im going to go out and do it!!!! So no flame

I think what you meant to ask was, " has anyone done an aileron roll in a Piper ? ". The answer is, I'm sure they have. An aileron roll, done properly, is a very mild manuever compared to a spin. I've done three turn spins in the Tomahawk ( this was before the tails started falling off ), which is generally a 3G manuever on the recovery.

Not that I ever did it , but when I worked for a Mooney dealer an aileron roll was generally part of a sales demo flight. The prospective customer would always come back raving about how strong the airplane was. Most pilots don't seem to understand the "G" forces, or lack thereof, involved in a well performed roll.

Note, this doesn't make doing rolls in non-aerobatic aircraft legal or smart unless you follow all the guidelines in the FARs andf know exactly what you are doing. It is very important to learn aerobatics in a proper aerobatic aircraft. Don't go out trying to roll the next Piper you fly just because someone says it can be done.


Typhoonpilot

 

[DrewBlows]

Don't do aerobatics in an airplane not certified to do so.

There are two reasons for this. First, I may rent that airplane after you (unlikely). Second, someone I know may rent that airplane after you. At best, you shortened the life of the gyros, at worst I have to attend a funeral. If you want to do aerobatics, there are plenty of citabria's out there, get an instructor and learn how to do it, just like you got an instructor to learn how to land, fly cross-country, and fly and ILS.

Rant over.

 

[Flyin Tony]

Who said I was going to????

 

[avernas]

Please don't follow Avernas' advice since these are not negative G machines. Just pitch the nose up a good 10 degrees and keep her coming around. She'll fall through 10 degrees below the horizon and just let the airplane resume natural stability wings level. Not a whole lot of fun, but eh.'

Thanks for correcting my misinformation. I guess I'd better stick to posting on things I know more about.

avernas

 

[FN FAL]

Thanks for correcting my misinformation. I guess I'd better stick to posting on things I know more about.

avernas

It's not your fault...how could know anything, you only have 1,100 hours.

I hear stories all the time...guy rolled this 310, guy rolled this 182, guy rolled this navajo. Funny thing is, none of these ass wipes are out at the dz on the weekends jumping out of planes and showing their balls.

Instead, they are playing games with airframes not designed to do what they are doing and later on you pay the price when the airframe fails.

I say go ahead and whip the plane over...when the tail comes off or you fold the wings off, I'll be here to laugh about it. Gourd head...I triple dare ya.

 

[FN FAL]

Oh, and if you're really good, you'll be a check airman and fill out a check ride slip before you go AND talk about the illegal stuff on the CVR...

NTSB Identification: CHI93MA143 .
The docket is stored on NTSB microfiche number 50100.
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Wednesday, April 28, 1993 in SHELTON, NE
Probable Cause Approval Date: 5/10/1994
Aircraft: BEECH C99, registration: N115GP
Injuries: 2 Fatal.
THE FLIGHT WAS A PART 135 SIX-MONTH PROFICIENCY CHECK FOR THE PILOT IN THE LEFT SEAT. BOTH PILOTS WERE CHECK AIRMEN FOR THE COMMUTER AIR CARRIER. THE FLIGHT TOOK OFF AT 2343 AFTER CESSATION OF COMPANY REVENUE OPERATIONS. THE COCKPIT VOICE RECORDER RECORDED CONVERSATION OF BOTH PILOTS DISCUSSING AEROBATICS. THE PILOT IN THE LEFT SEAT STARTED TO DESCRIBE THE PERFORMANCE OF A PROHIBITED MANEUVER (APPARENTLY A BARREL ROLL). THE RECORDING ENDED BEFORE DESCRIPTION OF THE MANEUVER WAS COMPLETED. THE AIRPLANE IMPACTED IN A NOSE LEVEL ATTITUDE WITH THE LEFT WING SLIGHTLY DOWN. THERE WAS EVIDENCE THE MANEUVER WAS PERFORMED AT AN ALTITUDE INSUFFICIENT TO ASSURE RECOVERY OF THE AIRPLANE. A FILLED OUT GRADE SHEET FOR THE FLIGHT BEING FLOWN WAS FOUND IN THE CHECK AIRMAN'S MAILBOX. (FOR FURTHER INFORMATION, SEE NTSB SUMMARY REPORT NTSB/AAR-94/01/SUM)

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:

THE DELIBERATE DISREGARD FOR THE FEDERAL AVIATION REGULATIONS, GP EXPRESS PROCEDURES, AND PRUDENT CONCERN FOR SAFETY BY THE TWO PILOTS IN THEIR DECISION TO EXECUTE AN AEROBATIC MANEUVER DURING A SCHEDULED CHECK RIDE FLIGHT, AND THE FAILURE OF GP EXPRESS MANAGEMENT TO ESTABLISH AND MAINTAIN A COMMITMENT TO INSTILL PROFESSIONALISM IN THEIR PILOTS CONSISTENT WITH THE HIGHEST LEVELS OF SAFETY NECESSARY FOR AN AIRLINE OPERATING SCHEDULED PASSENGER SERVICE.

Full narrative availableNTSB Identification: CHI93MA143 .

 

[typhoonpilot]

Just to add a little more info on the effect on gyros:

Unavoidable precession is caused by aircraft maneuvering and by the internal friction of attitude and directional gyros. This causes slow "drifting" and thus erroneous readings. When deflective forces are too strong or are applied very rapidly, most older gyro rotors topple over, rather than merely precess. This is called "tumbling" or "spilling" the gyro and should be avoided because it damages bearings and renders the instrument useless until the gyro is erected again. Some of the older gyros have caging devices to hold the gimbals in place. Even though caging causes greater than normal wear, older gyros should be caged during aerobatic maneuvers to avoid damage to the instrument. The gyro may be erected or reset by a caging knob. Many gyro instruments manufactured today have higher attitude limitations than the older types. These instruments do not "tumble" when the gyro limits are exceeded, but, however, do not reflect pitch attitude beyond 85 degrees nose up or nose down from level flight. Beyond these limits the newer gyros give incorrect readings. These gyros have a self-erecting mechanism that eliminates the need for caging.

TP

 

[Bluestreak]

Here's another:

NTSB Identification: ATL95FA078 .
The docket is stored in the Docket Management System (DMS). Please contact Public Inquiries
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Saturday, April 08, 1995 in COVINGTON, TN
Probable Cause Approval Date: 9/24/1995
Aircraft: PIPER PA-34-200T, registration: N6390C
Injuries: 2 Fatal.

THE COMMERCIAL PILOT WAS MAKING WHAT WAS REPORTED TO BE HIS LAST FLIGHT IN THE AIRPLANE, BECAUSE HE WAS TAKING A JOB AS A COMMUTER PILOT. A CFI, WHO TALKED WITH THE PILOT BEFORE DEPARTURE, REPORTED THAT THE PILOT SAID HE WAS GOING TO 'ROLL THE AIRPLANE.' WITNESSES REPORTED THAT THE RIGHT WING FOLDED BACK, WITH A LOUD BOOMING NOISE. NO INFLIGHT SMOKE OR FIRE WAS REPORTED. AN EXAMINATION OF THE WRECKAGE REVEALED THAT THE LEFT STABILATOR FAILED IN POSITIVE OVERLOAD (FAILED DOWN). THE RIGHT WING FAILED AT THE WING ROOT, AND ALSO OUTBOARD OF THE RIGHT ENGINE. THE LEFT WING FAILED OUTBOARD OF THE LEFT ENGINE. WING SPAR EXAMINATION REVEALED THAT THERE WAS UPWARD (POSITIVE) BENDING, BUT FAILURE WAS IN THE DOWNWARD DIRECTION. ALL FRACTURE SURFACES SHOWED EVIDENCE OF OVERLOAD; THERE WAS NO EVIDENCE OF FATIGUE OBSERVED. THE PILOT'S OPERATING HANDBOOK INCLUDES THE LIMITATION THAT ALL INTENTIONAL AEROBATIC MANEUVERS ARE PROHIBITED IN THIS AIRPLANE. The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:

THE PILOT EXCEEDED THE DESIGN STRESS LIMITS OF THE AIRCRAFT AND SUBSEQUENT OVERLOAD FAILURES OF THE STABILATOR AND WING SPARS.

Another Test Pilot wannabe.

 

[Stukadriver]

If you ever get the itch to do acro in something that isn't certified for it, just watch the video of the 1983 Partenavia crash in Plainview, TX. The version I saw showed the guy telling a reporter who was riding with him the day before the airshow something to the effect of how normal category aircraft are perfectly capable of doing aerobatic manuvers. The next day, he ripped the wings off outboard of the engines and twisted the empennage while trying to perform a loop.

http://www.airdisaster.com/forums/printthread.php?t=69798

 

[Lead Sled]

If you ever get the itch to do acro in something that isn't certified for it, just watch the video of the 1983 Partenavia crash in Plainview, TX.

I knew that guy pretty well - we was my Turbo Commander instructor. I strongly believe every pilot ought to have a certain minimum level of aerobatic proficiency - namely spins and rolls. One company that I worked for in the past, sent us for periodic aerobatic training to help us in the event that we were to ever have an encounter with extreme upset caused by, for example, a bad wake turbulence encounter. (This was the suspected cause of a couple of fatal corporate accidents a few years ago.) This training is becoming increasingly popular with corporate operators. Also, according to the guy who provided our training, some 121 operators are starting to get on the bandwagon as well. (Many schools call it "Extreme Unusual Attitude Recovery Training". Don't want no "hotshot" corporate or airline pilots out there. It is what it is however.)

The aircraft that many of these schools use are what you'd expect - Decathelons and Pitts. However, courses are also taught in T-34s and the various surplus eastern European jet trainers that are out there. (You don't see many Piper Cherokees Tony, so don't get any ideas.)

It is nice to have “automatic” reactions should you ever tangle with the wake turbulence of a “heavy”. At a certain point, a pilots normal reaction of pulling pack on the yoke to avoid the ground will be exactly what you don't want to do.

'Sled

 

[AA717driver]

Man, this stuff scares the he!! outta me!

I'm going to stick with seeing how much freezing rain my 172 can carry. Hey, I've got 10,000 hours. What could possibly go wrong...? TC

 

[say again]

Man, this stuff scares the he!! outta me!

I'm going to stick with seeing how much freezing rain my 172 can carry. Hey, I've got 10,000 hours. What could possibly go wrong...? TC

The famous last words speak again.

Do you guys remember the 707( or DC-8) doing a barrel role? Now that was f-ing awesome!!! If done properly, it's an elegant manuever. The thing is, most people don't do it properly with grave circumstances.

If you're going to do it, go up with an experienced aerobatic pilot in a CERTIFIED aircraft. Have fun and enjoy.

 

[mizzouguy]

I knew someone who did that and the wings came off killing him and his 2 friends and almost hitting a boat. The video is pretty impressive.