Banner towing in unmodified AC

[gsrcrsx68]

Anybody ever tow a banner in either an unmodified plane or a very lighty modified plane? I like to tow small banners (big nylon flag type) with a 152, no banner exchanging. Just up, deploy banner and either drop it or land with it in tow. Thoughts?

Anyone ever applied for a waiver to tow a banner? How long does it take?

 

[gsrcrsx68]

Oh and Paco, I know...your gonna build an international banner towing company of volunteer aviators who will tow banners for free on their days off from their airline jobs.

 

[LR25]

Its not usual to land with a banner, only when it gets hung up. I have flown a T-41, military C-172, but it seemed to have enough HP to do the job. Also pulled with a Standard 150HP Super Cub, it did fine usualy, but if were hot, full gas and a large banner (letters) it sometimes didnt want to climb to good.

 

[momalley81]

There's not much a 150hp Super Cub won't tow. Depending of course on endurence and weather. 235 horse Pawnee will tow a decent banner, but you aren't going to stay up very long without some extra gas. I've seen guys towing with standard 182's and Stinson 108's as well. Cessna Bird Dogs make good tow planes, stock as well. Biggest problem you'll have is limited endurence without extra gas. Though a PA-11 Cub with a O-290 can stay up for around 3-4 hours with the standard fuel, and you'll still be able to tow medium sized letter banners and smaller billboards.

You are still going to need some sort of hitch though. Landing with the banner can get dicey with some larger billboards, especially with tailwheel aircraft. And wear and tear on the banner is bad enough just picking them up, can't imagine dragging one across pavement on takeoff. As for "deploying" it in flight? Not a chance; enough goes wrong just chucking a hook out the door.


Can't help you with the waiver though. Best bet is to call your FSDO and see what they want. I've seen 3 differant waivers, all with differant limitations for 3 differant regions.

 

[missionarypilot]

I couldn't imagine trying to throw out even a letter banner in flight!!! Agree with above post...enough peole have had flight controls jammed just from throwing a hook out the window. And landing with it in tow is usually in emergencies only..as in the banner won't release. I can't imagine doing that as normal procedure.

 

[ReverseSensing]

O-320 172's will tow a banner adequately, as long as it's not too big (I think we went up to 20 4' letters) or too high/hot. These had the hitch mod, but it doesn't seem like a very extensive mod.

 

[avbug]

I've installed tow systems in 172's and 182's for banner and glider towing. I've towed with airplanes as small as 150's.

Why on earth would you land with a banner, or a tow rope for that matter? That's a ridiculous idea.

Jamming controls when tossing a hook? One would have to be an absolute idiot to do that. Toss down and you'll never have that problem. You'd have to try hard to toss it up to get it over the stab, and even then to jam the controls...lots of people have jammed controls when throwing the hook? Who, exactly?

Towing without a release? What are you going to do if you have a problem? You need to have a release. I don't think the FAA will be happy about that.

Waiver? Get some experience towing banners; take a job and work a summer, then think about it.

 

[LAZYB]

Towed in the LA area for a couple of years.

C-150s - 2 with O-360, 1 with O-320. All had climb props, oil cooler, and drooped wing tip aux fuel tanks. Had 5-6 hr endurance as I recall.

Did a **ll of a job.

Not all that expensive to get into.

 

[BGSM]

banner

I suggest doing a little more research, yes you need a waiver the a/c will be a restricted cat. If you haven't towed before you will need training and the FAA most likely will require and watch you do a few pick ups and release. I owned a banner company and have towed with a super cub, PA-25 and flew night signs with a c-172. You cant tow over games anymore since the NFL and NCAA basically bought the airspace Good luck

 

[missionarypilot]

Jamming controls when tossing a hook? One would have to be an absolute idiot to do that. Toss down and you'll never have that problem. You'd have to try hard to toss it up to get it over the stab, and even then to jam the controls...lots of people have jammed controls when throwing the hook? Who, exactly?

Well that's the whole reason they make rudder horn guards...on taildraggers like Super Cubs if the cable isn't routed correctly it could catch on the rudder guard. I know a guy who threw his hook out too soon and it bounced off the ground and over the horizontal stab. I know another guy who somehow got the hook caught on the rudder horn...when he picked up the banner he said he got full rudder deflection...but landed safely. Same guy said another guy working with him got killed because of hook & cable getting caught in flight controls. Most other banner towers I've talked to have some sort of "trick" for making sure the hook drops down & back...whether it be rudder horn guards or a little safety wire. Obviously it has happened enough that people are trying to prevent it. I'll see if I can find some NTSB reports.
Personally I just make sure to throw the hook down...and then watch it swing back up on the other side. I've had no problems yet...

 

[avbug]

I know a guy who threw his hook out too soon and it bounced off the ground and over the horizontal stab. I know another guy who somehow got the hook caught on the rudder horn...when he picked up the banner he said he got full rudder deflection...but landed safely. Same guy said another guy working with him got killed because of hook & cable getting caught in flight controls.

Like I said, one would have to be a complete idiot to do those things. Throwing the hook close enough to the ground that it could bounce? Idiotic. Tossing and getting it looped through the rudder horn? Foolish, but possible...but failing to look back and check it and failing to have a ground crew and signals to confirm that he's got a clear good hook prior to the pickup...inexcusable. Friend of a friend...especially the friend who did something stupid having a friend who did something stupid...seems they're grouping together. Stand clear of that group.

 

[momalley81]

Like I said, one would have to be a complete idiot to do those things. Throwing the hook close enough to the ground that it could bounce? Idiotic. Tossing and getting it looped through the rudder horn? Foolish, but possible...but failing to look back and check it and failing to have a ground crew and signals to confirm that he's got a clear good hook prior to the pickup...inexcusable. Friend of a friend...especially the friend who did something stupid having a friend who did something stupid...seems they're grouping together. Stand clear of that group.

The worst I ever had was tossing it out wrong in the cub, and not getting it caught on the rudder horn, but on the tailwheel. Worst part about that one was, from the front you really couldn't see it, your first indication of course, was the rudder hitting the stop.

Most common way I found to foul the controls though was on the pick, coming in too low and bouncing the hook off the ground. Know more than one guy that wrapped one around the elevator doing that. Don't know how it would have worked out if he managed to catch the banner when he did.

Of course, if you routed the hooks wrong, you could garuntee that it'd get fouled on the rudder horn.

And what is this "ground crew" you speak of?

 

[avbug]

Of whom you speak.

The folks to make the banner, lay it out, string it up, and who should be waiting by the poles to notify of a proper run-in and pickup. We used the signal that whomever was assigned by the poles would lay down on the ground if something were amiss.

I don't recall ever bouncing a hook off the ground. One should know how far the hook hangs down, and keep the hook slightly below the pole altitude. The hook should never touch the ground. The hook needn't hang down very low, and needn't intercept the pickup loop or line much more than a foot to thee feet above the hook for an accurate and reliable catch and tow.

Routing the hook wrong is fairly hard to do...even harder than striking the empennage or wrapping a rope around the controls.

 

[ReverseSensing]

Of whom you speak.

“This is the sort of English up with which I will not put.” --Winston Churchill

 

[momalley81]

Of whom you speak.

The folks to make the banner, lay it out, string it up, and who should be waiting by the poles to notify of a proper run-in and pickup. We used the signal that whomever was assigned by the poles would lay down on the ground if something were amiss.

I don't recall ever bouncing a hook off the ground. One should know how far the hook hangs down, and keep the hook slightly below the pole altitude. The hook should never touch the ground. The hook needn't hang down very low, and needn't intercept the pickup loop or line much more than a foot to thee feet above the hook for an accurate and reliable catch and tow.

Routing the hook wrong is fairly hard to do...even harder than striking the empennage or wrapping a rope around the controls.

Oh. Those guys. We didn't have them. Pilots built the banner at the beginning of the day, and took it apart and the end, either socking it up for tomorrow, or breaking it down to tranport.

I think the fact that the pickup poles were 5' letter sticks might have had something to do with bouncing hooks. Rope ended up being around 3-4' above the ground. It wasn't an every day occurance, but it happened occasionally.

I'm sure you don't have to try and imagine what happens when you stick low time pilots out there with minimal training. Weirdest was the guy that somehow managed to hook the banner on his nosewheel. Just a LITTLE bit low.

 

[missionarypilot]

Like I said, one would have to be a complete idiot to do those things. Throwing the hook close enough to the ground that it could bounce? Idiotic. Tossing and getting it looped through the rudder horn? Foolish, but possible...but failing to look back and check it and failing to have a ground crew and signals to confirm that he's got a clear good hook prior to the pickup...inexcusable. Friend of a friend...especially the friend who did something stupid having a friend who did something stupid...seems they're grouping together. Stand clear of that group.

Yes the guy who bounced the hook off the ground admitted it was a "stupid mistake." But I think you referring to the only way of getting controls jammed by the hook/cable as "idiotic" is WAY oversimplified. I guess they only make rudder guards for the "idiotic" pilots. And in the FAA's advisory on banner towing they have two paragraphs on avoiding entanglement:

GRAPPLE HOOK DEPLOYMENT. ​

[FONT=EOBIMB+TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman]A crucial event during banner tow operations is the deployment of the grapple hook. The grapple hook should be released in such a manner that it, or the grapple line, does not snarl in aircraft control surfaces or landing gear, to include the tailwheel, in conventional gear configurations. The hook line must be observed to have clearance before every low approach. If the grapple line becomes snarled on the tailwheel or a control surface, a reduction in the capability of the pilot to control the airplane may occur. In a worst case scenario, movement of the rudder or elevator control surface may be limited or even jammed. Further, the pilot may not be able to release the grapple line because of the entanglement. The best cure is prevention. [/FONT]​

[FONT=EOBIMB+TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman]


[/FONT]

PREVENTION OF GRAPPLE LINE ENTANGLEMENT. ​

[FONT=EOBIMB+TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman]Depending upon aircraft configuration, several devices can be used to help avoid entanglement. [/FONT]​

[FONT=EOBIMB+TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman]

The tow hitch end of the grapple line can be stiffened to prevent it from looping around the tailwheel or the empennage as the line is deployed. Stiffening of the line may be accomplished by working a 2-foot length of stiff plastic garden hose over the line. The hose is then carefully heat formed over the knots at the ring. See Figure 2-1, Examples of a Plastic Garden Hose Installation.
Devices, such as spring keepers, can be used to hold the grapple line away from the tailwheel or the tail control surfaces until the grapple line is released. The spring keeper is attached to the bottom of the horizontal stabilizer or the empennage bracing wire into which the grapple line is connected.
The configuration of some aircraft may not permit the use of keepers to hold the grapple line away from the airframe. As an alternate method, the use of a rudder guard or Vee bar (if a multiple rope system is used), may be helpful. This device is attached to the aft fuselage and serves to guide the grapple line away from the tailwheel or control surface horns during deployment. See Figure 2-2, Examples of a Vee Bar.
The pilot should avoid uncoordinated or abrupt maneuvers during grapple line deployment. Trained ground support personnel should be available during banner pickup operations, and be briefed to observe the aircraft and inform the pilot if the line appears to be trailing abnormally. Picking up a banner with a loosely, snarled line will only tighten it and complicate the problem.
Obviously, as the FAA puts it, the best cure for this is prevention. Personally, I've never had a problem, and I don't want to. I also couldn't imagine getting so slow as to stall/spin close to the ground, but it happens all the time.​

Routing the hook wrong is fairly hard to do...even harder than striking the empennage or wrapping a rope around the controls.
Agree. All of these possiblities are very improbable occurences, but all it takes is once. I haven't been towing for that long, but I know I listen to the guys who have done it for thousands of hours. Let's face it: it's inherently risky stuff, but with the right preparations and attention to maintenance and detail (like how you route and throw out the hook) you can lower the risk significantly.
And I don't have ground crew either...but I ALWAYS check to make sure the hook is trailing behind me.​

[/FONT]

 

[avbug]

GRAPPLE HOOK DEPLOYMENT. ​

[FONT=EOBIMB+TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman]A crucial event during banner tow operations is the deployment of the grapple hook. The grapple hook should be released in such a manner that it, or the grapple line, does not snarl in aircraft control surfaces or landing gear, to include the tailwheel, in conventional gear configurations. The hook line must be observed to have clearance before every low approach. If the grapple line becomes snarled on the tailwheel or a control surface, a reduction in the capability of the pilot to control the airplane may occur. In a worst case scenario, movement of the rudder or elevator control surface may be limited or even jammed. Further, the pilot may not be able to release the grapple line because of the entanglement. The best cure is prevention. [/FONT]​

In other words, don't be an idiot.

Obviously, as the FAA puts it, the best cure for this is prevention. Personally, I've never had a problem, and I don't want to. I also couldn't imagine getting so slow as to stall/spin close to the ground, but it happens all the time.

No shortage of people doing idiotic things out there. We see it every day. Still doesn't change the fact that it's preventable, and idiotic.

The pilot should avoid uncoordinated or abrupt maneuvers during grapple line deployment. Trained ground support personnel should be available during banner pickup operations, and be briefed to observe the aircraft and inform the pilot if the line appears to be trailing abnormally.

Ground crews and personnel should be available. According to the FAA, that is. You don't use them.

But I think you referring to the only way of getting controls jammed by the hook/cable as "idiotic" is WAY oversimplified. I guess they only make rudder guards for the "idiotic" pilots.

Correct. Pretty much the same reason that people buy airplanes with ballistic parachutes, and Cirrus sells so many airplanes. But that's an entirely different discussion.

Let's face it: it's inherently risky stuff,

Surely you gest. Risky stuff?

If it's risky, then you're doing it wrong, and need to stop, immediately.

As pilots, we're all about finding and eliminating risk. Hazards become risks when we put them in play. They don't exist as risks until we do that, and accordingly, the real risk is the person who makes or allows something to be a "risk."

We did have a poster here a year or so ago who went on at great length about how death defying banner towing is. It's the most dangerous thing he could imagine. He'd done it one summer and was quite the expert on all that the business is not. I started and ran my own banner business, and never found that to be the case...it's probably been the closest thing I've done in an airplane to being a "sleeper" job. I can't say if anybody had ever asked me, that I'd have remotely thought to call it "risky."

If it were "risky," I would have found a way to make it not risky, or I wouldn't have been doing it. As it was, it was never risky. If your operation is, stop, review the FAA guidlines, get yourself a kid to help on the ground, and find out what's creating that risk.

And eliminate it.

It's in your best interest.