B737 design flaw, pilot error induced by B737 design

[Jim Smyth]

Did ya hear it on the takeoff roll? NO? Are you above 10,000 ft? HMMMM...

I heard it on the takeoff roll and kept going..Then you know damn well what that horn is!

Did not hear it on the take off roll,uneventful takeoff,below 10,000 and the horn goes off,probably not gonna fall out off the sky or pass out from lack of o2. Level off and deal with it. once again, 50/50 chance of getting it right. Am I on the ground or in the air? Oh, and what do you mean by "especially the first time"? how many times has this happened to you?

There have been many professional aviators that have gotten this scenario wrong over the years. Some have paid with there lives and had a bunch of people behind the cockpit door follow them to nirvana when the wrong decision was made.

I have had this problem multiple times over the last 26 years. At the Takeoff roll (bad takeoff warning horn), after breaking ground when the air/ground safety puts you in the air mode, before 10,000 feet, at cruise.........you name it. Its never a good feeling where ever it happens and it sometimes doesn't go by the book. What gets you is when its just after Takeoff, your in bad weather, at night with a brand new FO that just became frosty the snowman and it feels like your head is going to implode! Oh yea, ding,ding,ding........its the flight attendants wanting to know whats going on, was that a frequency change, Huh? What, Over, oh theres mountain's out there, what, huh? It can turn real fugly.....................fast!

Your turn will come and hopefully you will become Chuck Yeager when it does and you make the right decision.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNRXJEE3Nz8

 

[ron burgundy]

There have been many professional aviators that have gotten this scenario wrong over the years. Some have paid with there lives and had a bunch of people behind the cockpit door follow them to nirvana when the wrong decision was made.

I have had this problem multiple times over the last 26 years. At the Takeoff roll (bad takeoff warning horn), after breaking ground when the air/ground safety puts you in the air mode, before 10,000 feet, at cruise.........you name it. Its never a good feeling where ever it happens and it sometimes doesn't go by the book. What gets you is when its just after Takeoff, your in bad weather, at night with a brand new FO that just became frosty the snowman and it feels like your head is going to implode! Oh yea, ding,ding,ding........its the flight attendants wanting to know whats going on, was that a frequency change, Huh? What, Over, oh theres mountain's out there, what, huh? It can turn real fugly.....................fast!

Your turn will come and hopefully you will become Chuck Yeager when it does and you make the right decision.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNRXJEE3Nz8

I've already had my turn..It worked out fine. I got lucky again I guess.

 

[pipe]

Did ya hear it on the takeoff roll? NO? Are you above 10,000 ft? HMMMM...

I heard it on the takeoff roll and kept going..Then you know damn well what that horn is!

Did not hear it on the take off roll,uneventful takeoff,below 10,000 and the horn goes off,probably not gonna fall out off the sky or pass out from lack of o2. Level off and deal with it. once again, 50/50 chance of getting it right. Am I on the ground or in the air? Oh, and what do you mean by "especially the first time"? how many times has this happened to you?

Great. It is an easy problem to troubleshoot.

There is no valid reason that it should have to be a troubleshooting event though. Change the damn horn!!! There is no excuse on planet earth that the NG aircraft (at the very least) don't just state "landing gear" "flaps" "pressurization", etc. Even the freaking MD-80 has been able to do most of that for a quarter of a century. Even 727's with RAAS can tell you what runway you're about to enter.

Boeing is wrong on this one. Problem is, I'd bet that their lawyers are concerned that fixing it will be viewed by other scumbag lawyers as an admission of guilt that will get them absolutely smoked in a bunch of liability suits.

The system could be fixed very, very easily. The problem is, you won't be able to blame the pilots any more if there is a pressurization problem resulting in an accident.

PIPE

 

[luckytohaveajob]

The system could be fixed very, very easily. The problem is, you won't be able to blame the pilots any more if there is a pressurization problem resulting in an accident.
PIPE

Unfortunately, Boeing's lawyers will point to the old facts and the new additional training and say the pilots should have known better. Then Boeing will hire expert witnesses who are over 60 who just medical ed out the likes of Ron Burgundy. All the jury will hear from Boeing is how incompetent the pilots are as opposed to what a flawed system Boeing has insisted on producing.

The American legal system will once again not provide justice. Boeing will once again claim its innocence and walk. Boeing has taken this approach countless times. Admitting there is a problem and taking responsibility is a major problem for Boeing. Boeing claims it is perfect so it must be. Haven't you read the slogans or heard the commercials?

Take the nitrogen systems in the fuel tanks. Installed but not activated. Those inactive systems will sit idle until every -200/-300/-500 is parked or the numbers are so few, the FAA doesn't care and requires the systems installations in order to put some little operator out of business.

Another example is the B737 rudder PCU actuator. After four fatal accidents, the FAA gave Boeing eight years to fix the problem. The last unmoded B737 are just getting the fix today. The entire time table was based on a statistical calculation it couldn't happen until the fixes could be installed during an eight year period. Thankfully no additional lives were lost with a known problem and fix.

System issues on the 6000+ B737 fleet are not about safety. Instead they are political. And until the body count motivates the politics, the B737's deficiencies will continue to be present.

 

[Singlecoil]

I agree, they should definitely change the horn. I should point out that the nitrogen systems are now being activated, however. I have flown at least one that was operational.

 

[JT12345]

At WN we've had several crews climb with the take-off warning horn sounding. Didn't figure it out till the FA's called and told them the "gear" was down.

It's happened to every 737 operator out there. Why? Cause it's a stupid system. Who puts a dual use horn in an airplane? I mean really. We've got a box that can tell us to pull up. A box can tell us to go around. A box can tell us if we're going to hit somebody. Surely we can have a box tell us:

"hey dumbass turn the packs back on" or
"hey dumbass put the flaps out" or
"hey dumbass release the brakes before taking off"

Gup

There are a few other panels on the 737 that get confusing even for the seasoned 737 pilot.

If would have been great for an airplane with a Glass cockpit to have the option for messages on those Glass displays like every other glass airplane, but for the NG that is not the case. Which airline can we blame for that? lol

It is more about training costs and selling airplanes than safety obviously.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

I understand SWA is switching the NG glass to tapes and using the original Boeing design with the full PFD/MFD terminology as opposed to the bastardized inboard display unit/outboard display unit crap. End of the round dial.

Its funny how SWA screwed up the airplane and is the first to change it back when they need the full functionality.

Its another SWA conspiracy to defeat the competition! Conspiracy I say!

 

[igneousy2]

It's been 11 months since your last recurrent...you HAVE been a diligent pilot...you haven't F*cked it up yet...You haven't even heard the fricken horn since you were a new-hire because you have never forgot to turn the packs back on and you have never forgot to release the parking brake in 15 years. You are a super all star pilot at all of your recurrents...unfortunately your training department has not chosen to include this one scenario out of hundreds to review for you during your once a year event.

Now you're busier than shi* on one of those crazy departures out of EWR on a hot summer night with thunderstorms all around. You're light in a 700 so you're screaming up at 6000/fpm...

Now for the first time in 15 years you hear a sound that you have not heard in forever as you rocket past 10,000.

It is an intermitent horn! Now how did that go again...if it's an intermitent horn then put the gear down...or was it a steady horn...

You've got 15 seconds to act because in just a little bit you're gonna give half the pax a heart attack when they see the rubber jungle. Also...you better be careful you don't snap the neck of your C flight attendant as you send the airplane into negative-g's as you push it over trying to stop the asscent.

This is ridicules...the only people that could even possibly argue this is a safe system are instructors that have been in the school house too long that seem to think that when crap happens on the line it happens in neat little packages just like training...and engineers because when they go and talk to "PILOTS" they invariably go and talk to those in the school houses of the various airlines.

This is ridicules...there should be a DIFFERENT horn...there should be a voice...AND there should be a light. This is a no brainer-this airplane should never have been certified in this way in the first place.

I have a suggestion for Boeing too save them money so they don't need to do too much additional installation...disable the flight attendant call bell and use the bell as the distinct cabin altitude warning...We realy don't need that thing anyway.

Later

 

[igneousy2]

.....

 

[gupdoc]

New delivery Next Gens are coming with warning lights installed on the panel. They are not yet activated, but it's in the works.