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Realistic,
Again 100% correct on every issue. Is it the haves vs the have-nots, the top 20% vs the lower 80%, Management vs pilots. I think it is all of the above. We do have some pretty senior pilots who agree with 100% of what you say, but they are either the minority (or the silent majority) and their voice is not heard. They are just shouted down by the vocal minority and then the lower 80% are ignored, told to "shut up and color", and berated that they should never have been hired because they won't bury their head in the sand.
The promisses made by management to all of us have not been met. Yes times are tough, but better health insurance, the ablity to take PTO when we want it, productive schedules with a good quality of life, and a token cost of living raise (which might reduce profit sharng a point or two), would have been the correct steps for management to show the JB values.
Right now a Capt might have to work an additional 30 minutes to pay for the health care increase, an FO might have to work an additional hour. But a FA would have to work and additional 2-3 hours and a ramper or Customer service agent would have to work almost an extra day per month to pay for the increases. Outraguous to think of with out receivend a cost of living raise. What will it be next year? And the year after that?
Management has made lots of promises and has failed to deliver on most of them, they need to wake up (and maybe you all too!). I know that there is a difference between what the contract says, and what management has said verbally, but have you ever heard of a verbal contract? But where are their values to honor their promises? It is a few on this board (with JB) that have stopped drinking the blue coolaid and pump it in via an IV, that really need to wake up and see the real world. They say how did you ever get on the property? My question to them is the same, How did YOU ever get on the property? You have been here longer and had years to prove your worth (or lack of) to your fellow pilots. But it is your values that should be questions not Realistics' or mine, or the others that speak up about the issues. Your "passion" has no basis in fact and it is "all about me". Your "caring" for others is non existant, again it is "all about me" or you would work get things changed. The "fun" you have is at others expense. As for "integrity" and "safety", I'll give you a pass on them so far. However i'll bet that if things do improve in the next year or so, these "Blue Bloods" will actually take the credit for it. Amazing.
Realistic, right on... Keep up the good fight. There are some of us that feel your pain and agree with you.
FNG
Again 100% correct on every issue. Is it the haves vs the have-nots, the top 20% vs the lower 80%, Management vs pilots. I think it is all of the above. We do have some pretty senior pilots who agree with 100% of what you say, but they are either the minority (or the silent majority) and their voice is not heard. They are just shouted down by the vocal minority and then the lower 80% are ignored, told to "shut up and color", and berated that they should never have been hired because they won't bury their head in the sand.
The promisses made by management to all of us have not been met. Yes times are tough, but better health insurance, the ablity to take PTO when we want it, productive schedules with a good quality of life, and a token cost of living raise (which might reduce profit sharng a point or two), would have been the correct steps for management to show the JB values.
Right now a Capt might have to work an additional 30 minutes to pay for the health care increase, an FO might have to work an additional hour. But a FA would have to work and additional 2-3 hours and a ramper or Customer service agent would have to work almost an extra day per month to pay for the increases. Outraguous to think of with out receivend a cost of living raise. What will it be next year? And the year after that?
Management has made lots of promises and has failed to deliver on most of them, they need to wake up (and maybe you all too!). I know that there is a difference between what the contract says, and what management has said verbally, but have you ever heard of a verbal contract? But where are their values to honor their promises? It is a few on this board (with JB) that have stopped drinking the blue coolaid and pump it in via an IV, that really need to wake up and see the real world. They say how did you ever get on the property? My question to them is the same, How did YOU ever get on the property? You have been here longer and had years to prove your worth (or lack of) to your fellow pilots. But it is your values that should be questions not Realistics' or mine, or the others that speak up about the issues. Your "passion" has no basis in fact and it is "all about me". Your "caring" for others is non existant, again it is "all about me" or you would work get things changed. The "fun" you have is at others expense. As for "integrity" and "safety", I'll give you a pass on them so far. However i'll bet that if things do improve in the next year or so, these "Blue Bloods" will actually take the credit for it. Amazing.
Realistic, right on... Keep up the good fight. There are some of us that feel your pain and agree with you.
FNG
thruthemurk
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Dizel8
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Well "realistic" so those are the problems you perceive, what are are your solutions. What will make you feel better about the pairings, what do you think the company should do about the rising cost of health care ( a national problem), how much should compensation be, how many people should be on reserve, howe much PTO do you want???
Just curious, because if you can see the problems, have you thought of any solutions.
Further, sort of interested in where you were before and why you chose to join jetblue?
FNG says:"You have been here longer and had years to prove your worth (or lack of) to your fellow pilots. But it is your values that should be questions not Realistics' or mine, or the others that speak up about the issues. Your "passion" has no basis in fact and it is "all about me". Your "caring" for others is non existant, again it is "all about me" or you would work get things changed. The "fun" you have is at others expense. As for "integrity" and "safety", I'll give you a pass on them so far. However i'll bet that if things do improve in the next year or so, these "Blue Bloods" will actually take the credit for it. Amazing."
So much anger, wow. Kind of curious what the "senior boys" have done to you, are we on a special program here or did our cost of health insurance rise like yours. Yes, my schedule may be better than yours, but we agree that is what seniority allows. I fly my 80 hours a month, sometimes less, sometimes more and if you take a look at the schedules, you will see, that not all the "senior boys are "cleaning up". I know plenty of junior as well as senior pilots, that make more than me, but I value my free time and they want more money. Such is my choice and theirs.
As for proving our values, I think we have done that all along the way. As for myself, I treat my fellow crewmembers with respect regardless of position, I voice my issues to the company as they arise and I offered my financial help after 9/11. Now, I talk to those in the "sewing circle" and haven't met a bunch of guys or gals that I would rather work with.
When we were NewAir, jetboy or jetwho where were you? Just like some legacy pilots are blaming jetblue, is it possible that you are blaming the "senior boys" for issues that has nothing to do with them and more to do with the tough times in the airline business. Perhaps you could ask Neeleman about the rising cost of say health insurance and how he feels about having to raise our cost.
Just curious, because if you can see the problems, have you thought of any solutions.
Further, sort of interested in where you were before and why you chose to join jetblue?
FNG says:"You have been here longer and had years to prove your worth (or lack of) to your fellow pilots. But it is your values that should be questions not Realistics' or mine, or the others that speak up about the issues. Your "passion" has no basis in fact and it is "all about me". Your "caring" for others is non existant, again it is "all about me" or you would work get things changed. The "fun" you have is at others expense. As for "integrity" and "safety", I'll give you a pass on them so far. However i'll bet that if things do improve in the next year or so, these "Blue Bloods" will actually take the credit for it. Amazing."
So much anger, wow. Kind of curious what the "senior boys" have done to you, are we on a special program here or did our cost of health insurance rise like yours. Yes, my schedule may be better than yours, but we agree that is what seniority allows. I fly my 80 hours a month, sometimes less, sometimes more and if you take a look at the schedules, you will see, that not all the "senior boys are "cleaning up". I know plenty of junior as well as senior pilots, that make more than me, but I value my free time and they want more money. Such is my choice and theirs.
As for proving our values, I think we have done that all along the way. As for myself, I treat my fellow crewmembers with respect regardless of position, I voice my issues to the company as they arise and I offered my financial help after 9/11. Now, I talk to those in the "sewing circle" and haven't met a bunch of guys or gals that I would rather work with.
When we were NewAir, jetboy or jetwho where were you? Just like some legacy pilots are blaming jetblue, is it possible that you are blaming the "senior boys" for issues that has nothing to do with them and more to do with the tough times in the airline business. Perhaps you could ask Neeleman about the rising cost of say health insurance and how he feels about having to raise our cost.
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Interesting perspective...but I honestly don't know any "promises" the company has made that they haven't followed through with, an exception being Al Spain's early statements that our pay would mimic Southwest's pay. And the company backed away from that statement at the outset of this downturn in profits. Do I wish we had followed that promise? You bet.
So, what are these many company promises that have been reneged on? FNG320, I'm amazed at your vitriol toward JetBlue...Is there something else bothering you? Trust me, I don't think this company is perfect--far from it. But management has not backed down from tackling the tough issues, and they are willing to discuss just about anything. At long last the reserve and scheduling system is being evaluated and changed...and the 4P work will yield great results (once they hit the street).
Fiscal recovery will hopefully yield a much better health care plan for us; I too agree that we have to get those costs under control. But we have to do so within a reasonable cost/profit structure. Remember that a company that loses money--and ceases to exist--will provide exactly zero benefits, period.
We made 2 million dollars last quarter...so it is not like we are making a killing right now. At least we are in the black; how could we pay everything you want and subsequently sustain losses like the other majors and stay in busines? Should we pay for everything and go out of business or increase pay and benefits within constraints and keep our jobs?
Eagleflip said:
Interesting perspective...but I honestly don't know any "promises" the company has made that they haven't followed through with, an exception being Al Spain's early statements that our pay would mimic Southwest's pay. And the company backed away from that statement at the outset of this downturn in profits. Do I wish we had followed that promise? You bet.
So, what are these many company promises that have been reneged on? FNG320, I'm amazed at your vitriol toward JetBlue...Is there something else bothering you? Trust me, I don't think this company is perfect--far from it. But management has not backed down from tackling the tough issues, and they are willing to discuss just about anything. At long last the reserve and scheduling system is being evaluated and changed...and the 4P work will yield great results (once they hit the street).
Fiscal recovery will hopefully yield a much better health care plan for us; I too agree that we have to get those costs under control. But we have to do so within a reasonable cost/profit structure. Remember that a company that loses money--and ceases to exist--will provide exactly zero benefits, period.
We made 2 million dollars last quarter...so it is not like we are making a killing right now. At least we are in the black; how could we pay everything you want and subsequently sustain losses like the other majors and stay in busines? Should we pay for everything and go out of business or increase pay and benefits within constraints and keep our jobs?
Eagle Flip'
I guess you can't read or do math. But let me try to spell it out for you. What promises have been broken (plus go read the benefits pages and publications).
1. Pay raise - Promised to the pilots by David, Al, Ann Rhodes, and other. A promise is a promise. Do you realize that the pay at JB has gone down upwards of 10 percent since this pay scale started. You have lost 10% of your buying power. Don't count the longevity raises, they are not cost of living raises. But even if you did, you have lost 2-3 percent in purchasing power.
2. PTO - PTO is a joke as it currently stands. The process is broken. Its a benefit you can't use. There are large periods of time where there are insuffient reserves to allow PTO (like half the year). Talk to the guys at LGB. If you add up all the PTO that the pilots earn, they only staff enough reserves to allow the pilots to take 2/3rds of the PTO they earn, and that is if they use every single reserve and have no minimum. Every single base has periods like this. It has happened every summer. Build the company on the backs of the employees. I've talked to guys in all the bases that don't even try to take PTO cause they know they can't get it. So they get sick. Right? Wrong? Sometimes these guys have no choice since the company doesn't fix the problems. ("we will fix the problem" promised every year)
3. A company with 6000+ employees should be able to figure out a better health care system. Lets get rid of the multiple systems and get a single systems/HMO that will work for everyone and still be less than what we currently have.
It would take approximately 1-2 % decrease in the profit margin to afford a 2-3% cost of living raise for every employee at JetBlue. This would help offset the problem #1 and #3 above. At least then, the employee (all of them) would feel that the company is thinking about them. IT may not be what the pilot group was promsied, but it would be a token of faith to us. I'd rather have the pay raise than the profit sharing. Profit shairing that goes into a 401K doesn't help guys/gals pay the bills. You need to review the SEC filings and look at the total cost in all these areas and then the profits and you should then be able to see the light yourself.
As for PTO, hire the number of people it takes to run it properly. If it means hiring 10% more people to do it, then do it. Will that hurt profits, yes, but again it should only reduce margins a another point. You don't seem to realize that the 8.9% margin JB got last year was made by withholding from the paychecks and benefits what was promised to all of us.
Again, I'm on my soap box pointing out things that you should realize but won't acknowledge. Good luck to you and to all of us.
FNG
Promises might be a little too concrete for today's business world so let's call them "possible enticements":
1. White Pages issue 1 - "The House" - Flexible schedules, PTO, Open Time, pay for performance, premium pay, stock options, profit sharing. My particular house has a foundation with some framing, so I've set up a tent out back. I guess we're still building - so we can reserve judgement for a year or two. The cinic in me says dejavu. Even so, I don't like the idea of describing compensation as a "total package" when that total package may not be complete for everybody.
2. Southwest pay - We all know this one.
3. I and many others were told during the interview process that insurance would improve. If this company only wants healthy families, then they should have told us that in the interview and many people would have elected not to quit their jobs at companies who could provide insurance. Whether you think so or not, countless companies still make the committment to provide adequate health care regardless of the catch phrases and sound bites that companies use to scare their employees into massive cuts. It's a matter of where you wish to set the bar. If we choose to be the lowest bidder in the industry then let's have that outlined on the website and during the interviews. If we want a company full of private contractors who "share" the burden of various business costs then lets not sugar coat it.
What would I fix (and please keep in mind that you asked this question and I am not implying at all that I'm an expert or a fortune teller - it is only my opinion so save the flaming.)
The most important change requires a history lesson on preferential bidding which is best saved for another thread. For now, I will only say that preferential bidding can do several things that are detremental to mid and low seniority pilots. No one will question that planned absences are eleminated with pref bidding, and so if a company chooses - they can eliminate open time. Open time then becomes a perk for schedule flexibility and a large cost because you need reserves to cover it. In the world of preferential bidding a company can choose how much or how little open time to provide. If they want to ratchet it down to near zero, they can. At low levels, you have no oportunity for additional premium pay or swapping or PTO. But low levels help the bottom line because you have less premium pay going out and you don't need as many reserves. The most dangerous aspect of pref bidding is when it creates a bent curve with regard to seniority and schedules. Meaning, you have very good schedules at the top, mediocre schedules in the middle, and really bad schedules at the bottom. Without going into the whys - I will just say that this was a big concern with unions when pref was pitched ten years ago. In the bid line era, you had a fairly linear distribution of schedule - but you had the bane of airlines everywhere - tons and tons of open time. Pref bidding can be tweaked and there are many human inputs to help even out curve problems. Also, some programs are better than others at looking after the entire seniority list. But here's the real problem at jetBlue: when you take a pref bidding program that is giving you a sloped curve and you combine it with a pay system that provides reward (premium pay) for very good schedules and nothing for very bad schedules you end up with a pay system that provides very high pay for a few, mediocre pay for the majority, and crappy pay for the junior. Should a pilot have to wait three or four or five years to start enjoying premium pay? If a pilot is religated to 75 hours of reserve for the remainder of his career (LGB, FLL) should his pay be so much lower than a pilot who may have been hired only a year before?
My first suggestion?
1. Keep pref bidding - you'll never eliminate this weed from the industry anyway - but eliminate premium pay. Take the money that is garnered from this change and spread it into the base pay system. The company will fight tooth and nail because they want insentive pay - senior pilots will fight tooth and nail because they like to get 18 hours of premium pay every month. I don't expect this to change in our current environment.
If we did this, then the difference between a 70 hour line and a 90 hour line becomes much less painful.
2. Staff at higher levels. Have the reserves to support large amounts of open time, PTO, and swapping. Also, reserves should not be expected to double duty, fly as FO's, trans-con deadhead, or do trans-con turns. There should be sufficient reserves to insure that extraordinary shenanigans are not required.
3. Take stock options completely out of any discussion of pay or benefits. They should not be viewed in any way as an offset to compensation.
4. Every pilot committee going forward should have term limits - especially the scheduling committee. Committee members should be elected. Temperment and philosophy should be selected by the pilot group.
5. Get an HMO. It costs money - we know. Take it out of the $90 million worth of HUDS we signed up for. I've got the same premium as most employees with an HMO. So why don't I have one?
We've all been told that this company was built for the tough times. The question is: when good times come, where does the return come from? Do good times mean we will get better schedules or more premium pay or more flexibility? I don't know. Probably not with the current system and certainly not without higher staffing levels. Do good times mean we will get better insurance? I'm pretty sure this won't happen. Do good times mean we will get a return on our options? Maybe - not everybody. Do good times mean we will get a raise? Not very much if we've made the committment to our shareholders that we will have the lowest costs in the industry.
We do know that good times mean that we will get a nice contribution to our 401Ks. This is great, but as far as I can tell - without changes to our contracts or changes to our staffing or changes to our scheduling rules - this is our only tangible return route for good times.
When our last contract was pitched, I was reluctant but I was able to get on board with the model as stated. The insurance surprise and the fact that I don't seem to be realizing all that our model implies is where I got off the bus. That, and the fact that I feel that I'm worth a bit more for the services I provide. Probably just vanity but those student loans, the flight instructing, and the regionals make for a pretty impresive internship along with 16 years of - "NON SUFFICIENT FUNDS" Of course we could all make the case ourselves that a monkey could do what we do.
Don't worry - I'm not cancer. I can be dissatisfied and still be a good pilot. I can also plug away with the situation exactly the way it is today until I retire. So, in the end, I guess jetBlue has done a pretty good job of gauging how low to set the bar.
1. White Pages issue 1 - "The House" - Flexible schedules, PTO, Open Time, pay for performance, premium pay, stock options, profit sharing. My particular house has a foundation with some framing, so I've set up a tent out back. I guess we're still building - so we can reserve judgement for a year or two. The cinic in me says dejavu. Even so, I don't like the idea of describing compensation as a "total package" when that total package may not be complete for everybody.
2. Southwest pay - We all know this one.
3. I and many others were told during the interview process that insurance would improve. If this company only wants healthy families, then they should have told us that in the interview and many people would have elected not to quit their jobs at companies who could provide insurance. Whether you think so or not, countless companies still make the committment to provide adequate health care regardless of the catch phrases and sound bites that companies use to scare their employees into massive cuts. It's a matter of where you wish to set the bar. If we choose to be the lowest bidder in the industry then let's have that outlined on the website and during the interviews. If we want a company full of private contractors who "share" the burden of various business costs then lets not sugar coat it.
What would I fix (and please keep in mind that you asked this question and I am not implying at all that I'm an expert or a fortune teller - it is only my opinion so save the flaming.)
The most important change requires a history lesson on preferential bidding which is best saved for another thread. For now, I will only say that preferential bidding can do several things that are detremental to mid and low seniority pilots. No one will question that planned absences are eleminated with pref bidding, and so if a company chooses - they can eliminate open time. Open time then becomes a perk for schedule flexibility and a large cost because you need reserves to cover it. In the world of preferential bidding a company can choose how much or how little open time to provide. If they want to ratchet it down to near zero, they can. At low levels, you have no oportunity for additional premium pay or swapping or PTO. But low levels help the bottom line because you have less premium pay going out and you don't need as many reserves. The most dangerous aspect of pref bidding is when it creates a bent curve with regard to seniority and schedules. Meaning, you have very good schedules at the top, mediocre schedules in the middle, and really bad schedules at the bottom. Without going into the whys - I will just say that this was a big concern with unions when pref was pitched ten years ago. In the bid line era, you had a fairly linear distribution of schedule - but you had the bane of airlines everywhere - tons and tons of open time. Pref bidding can be tweaked and there are many human inputs to help even out curve problems. Also, some programs are better than others at looking after the entire seniority list. But here's the real problem at jetBlue: when you take a pref bidding program that is giving you a sloped curve and you combine it with a pay system that provides reward (premium pay) for very good schedules and nothing for very bad schedules you end up with a pay system that provides very high pay for a few, mediocre pay for the majority, and crappy pay for the junior. Should a pilot have to wait three or four or five years to start enjoying premium pay? If a pilot is religated to 75 hours of reserve for the remainder of his career (LGB, FLL) should his pay be so much lower than a pilot who may have been hired only a year before?
My first suggestion?
1. Keep pref bidding - you'll never eliminate this weed from the industry anyway - but eliminate premium pay. Take the money that is garnered from this change and spread it into the base pay system. The company will fight tooth and nail because they want insentive pay - senior pilots will fight tooth and nail because they like to get 18 hours of premium pay every month. I don't expect this to change in our current environment.
If we did this, then the difference between a 70 hour line and a 90 hour line becomes much less painful.
2. Staff at higher levels. Have the reserves to support large amounts of open time, PTO, and swapping. Also, reserves should not be expected to double duty, fly as FO's, trans-con deadhead, or do trans-con turns. There should be sufficient reserves to insure that extraordinary shenanigans are not required.
3. Take stock options completely out of any discussion of pay or benefits. They should not be viewed in any way as an offset to compensation.
4. Every pilot committee going forward should have term limits - especially the scheduling committee. Committee members should be elected. Temperment and philosophy should be selected by the pilot group.
5. Get an HMO. It costs money - we know. Take it out of the $90 million worth of HUDS we signed up for. I've got the same premium as most employees with an HMO. So why don't I have one?
We've all been told that this company was built for the tough times. The question is: when good times come, where does the return come from? Do good times mean we will get better schedules or more premium pay or more flexibility? I don't know. Probably not with the current system and certainly not without higher staffing levels. Do good times mean we will get better insurance? I'm pretty sure this won't happen. Do good times mean we will get a return on our options? Maybe - not everybody. Do good times mean we will get a raise? Not very much if we've made the committment to our shareholders that we will have the lowest costs in the industry.
We do know that good times mean that we will get a nice contribution to our 401Ks. This is great, but as far as I can tell - without changes to our contracts or changes to our staffing or changes to our scheduling rules - this is our only tangible return route for good times.
When our last contract was pitched, I was reluctant but I was able to get on board with the model as stated. The insurance surprise and the fact that I don't seem to be realizing all that our model implies is where I got off the bus. That, and the fact that I feel that I'm worth a bit more for the services I provide. Probably just vanity but those student loans, the flight instructing, and the regionals make for a pretty impresive internship along with 16 years of - "NON SUFFICIENT FUNDS" Of course we could all make the case ourselves that a monkey could do what we do.
Don't worry - I'm not cancer. I can be dissatisfied and still be a good pilot. I can also plug away with the situation exactly the way it is today until I retire. So, in the end, I guess jetBlue has done a pretty good job of gauging how low to set the bar.
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OK, I've got to jump in on this one....
-I've also heard the Southwest pay thing, but only from other line pukes like me, did one of you hear it from "David, Al, Ann Rhodes, and others" or just from other pilots who heard it from someone who heard it from someone..... I just wanted to be sure that it actually came from one of them before I got all bent out of shape about it. I was there when one of them said that INITIALLY they used the Southwest pay scales to decide JB rates, but they never wanted to tie the rates to Southwest. I wonder if anybody has ever heard the Soutwest pay thing directly from the horses mouth, otherwise I wouldn't call it a promise.
- I think the healthcare issue is getting worse, too. When I interviewed, they didn't say anything about improving it, though, I was wondering how long ago they made you that promise. Everything I hear on the news is that healthcare is getting worse for everyone, maybe they shouldn't have made you a promise at the interview, but I don't think they're blowing smoke on that one.
- Realisitc, you said "Should a pilot have to wait three or four or five years to start enjoying premium pay? If a pilot is religated to 75 hours of reserve for the remainder of his career (LGB, FLL) should his pay be so much lower than a pilot who may have been hired only a year before?"
If the guy hired only a year before decides he wants to go to JFK so he won't have to sit reserve for the rest of his life, then, yes. If you've been here for any amount of time, you know the situation at those bases, it does suck for the junior guys there, and yes, they could staff it more, but if you've been here for any amount of time, you know the situation. I'm from So. Cal. I have a lot of friends and family there, it would be an on-line commute, and I wouldn't need a crash pad, but I haven't bid over there, because I'd be on reserve. It's a choice that everyone has to make. If you know reserve over there $ucks and you can't take PTO, then don't go there. Bidding to one of those places in hopes that things will improve is a bit naive, it's like moving to a city because you heard Jetblue may be flying there soon, then bitching about it when they don't.
- I don't know where you got the "facts" about preferential bidding, but I'm one of the lower seniority guys in my seat, probably bottom 15% of lineholders, and I regularly get 85-90 hour credit months with 14-16 days off. Again, it's a choice you make when you bid, if you don't want redeyes, or like long layovers somewhere or weekends off, and are about my seniority, you can expect pretty crappy lines.
- You talk about how they can cut 1-2% off our profit margins for better healthcare, then 1-2% for pay raises, then 1-2% more for better staffing, you see where this is leading? You think the stock is in the crapper now, wait unitl we post a loss. Yeah, there are a lot of people whose options are worthless, I'm one of them, but I still get tangible benefits of the CSPP every 6 months, and I'd like to see us keep making a profit.
I'm not naive enough to think everything here is perfect, but it does upset me when I hear people ranting about how they've been lied to and how promises have been broken, when the only tangible information they have about these promises is a rumor they heard from a buddy. Maybe it's a good sign that there are all these conspiracy theories running around. There are thousands of guys out there spending all their time looking for a flying job, and we don't have to worry about that, so we use our time to come up with wild-ass rumors and other things to bitch about. I guess it's in our nature.
I'm pretty new to the industry. I'm not one of these guys who's been flying 121 for 25 years and is on their 7th airline, so most of you probably think I don't know squat. But one thing I have noticed in my short time here, this business is full of choices: where to live, what equipment to fly, what seat to fly, where to fly it from. Having come from the military, where you had very few choices, I like this job better. You actually get the chance to look at your options, weigh the pros and cons and make an informed decision. The only problem is that when you make your bed, you have to sleep in it.
I'm done.....
-I've also heard the Southwest pay thing, but only from other line pukes like me, did one of you hear it from "David, Al, Ann Rhodes, and others" or just from other pilots who heard it from someone who heard it from someone..... I just wanted to be sure that it actually came from one of them before I got all bent out of shape about it. I was there when one of them said that INITIALLY they used the Southwest pay scales to decide JB rates, but they never wanted to tie the rates to Southwest. I wonder if anybody has ever heard the Soutwest pay thing directly from the horses mouth, otherwise I wouldn't call it a promise.
- I think the healthcare issue is getting worse, too. When I interviewed, they didn't say anything about improving it, though, I was wondering how long ago they made you that promise. Everything I hear on the news is that healthcare is getting worse for everyone, maybe they shouldn't have made you a promise at the interview, but I don't think they're blowing smoke on that one.
- Realisitc, you said "Should a pilot have to wait three or four or five years to start enjoying premium pay? If a pilot is religated to 75 hours of reserve for the remainder of his career (LGB, FLL) should his pay be so much lower than a pilot who may have been hired only a year before?"
If the guy hired only a year before decides he wants to go to JFK so he won't have to sit reserve for the rest of his life, then, yes. If you've been here for any amount of time, you know the situation at those bases, it does suck for the junior guys there, and yes, they could staff it more, but if you've been here for any amount of time, you know the situation. I'm from So. Cal. I have a lot of friends and family there, it would be an on-line commute, and I wouldn't need a crash pad, but I haven't bid over there, because I'd be on reserve. It's a choice that everyone has to make. If you know reserve over there $ucks and you can't take PTO, then don't go there. Bidding to one of those places in hopes that things will improve is a bit naive, it's like moving to a city because you heard Jetblue may be flying there soon, then bitching about it when they don't.
- I don't know where you got the "facts" about preferential bidding, but I'm one of the lower seniority guys in my seat, probably bottom 15% of lineholders, and I regularly get 85-90 hour credit months with 14-16 days off. Again, it's a choice you make when you bid, if you don't want redeyes, or like long layovers somewhere or weekends off, and are about my seniority, you can expect pretty crappy lines.
- You talk about how they can cut 1-2% off our profit margins for better healthcare, then 1-2% for pay raises, then 1-2% more for better staffing, you see where this is leading? You think the stock is in the crapper now, wait unitl we post a loss. Yeah, there are a lot of people whose options are worthless, I'm one of them, but I still get tangible benefits of the CSPP every 6 months, and I'd like to see us keep making a profit.
I'm not naive enough to think everything here is perfect, but it does upset me when I hear people ranting about how they've been lied to and how promises have been broken, when the only tangible information they have about these promises is a rumor they heard from a buddy. Maybe it's a good sign that there are all these conspiracy theories running around. There are thousands of guys out there spending all their time looking for a flying job, and we don't have to worry about that, so we use our time to come up with wild-ass rumors and other things to bitch about. I guess it's in our nature.
I'm pretty new to the industry. I'm not one of these guys who's been flying 121 for 25 years and is on their 7th airline, so most of you probably think I don't know squat. But one thing I have noticed in my short time here, this business is full of choices: where to live, what equipment to fly, what seat to fly, where to fly it from. Having come from the military, where you had very few choices, I like this job better. You actually get the chance to look at your options, weigh the pros and cons and make an informed decision. The only problem is that when you make your bed, you have to sleep in it.
I'm done.....
Hi Realistic,
In regards to your comments about pref bidding...you are completely correct.
You guys use the same system we do at NWA...except looking over a B6 bud's bid, I see they have crippled the system a huge amount. Limited bid groups, removed commands, and no doubt a huge amount of tweaking to the internal settings.
All I can say is bummer. Its a great system, and has lead to a HUGE QoL at NWA for the mid and junior folks. In fact, some of the senior pilots complain that it is TOO helpful to junior pilots.
In any event, with a complex system like CLASS, you really have to have people who are on your side watching the settings and the administration and not worry if it will cause a quarter tick in the stock price.
Nu
In regards to your comments about pref bidding...you are completely correct.
You guys use the same system we do at NWA...except looking over a B6 bud's bid, I see they have crippled the system a huge amount. Limited bid groups, removed commands, and no doubt a huge amount of tweaking to the internal settings.
All I can say is bummer. Its a great system, and has lead to a HUGE QoL at NWA for the mid and junior folks. In fact, some of the senior pilots complain that it is TOO helpful to junior pilots.
In any event, with a complex system like CLASS, you really have to have people who are on your side watching the settings and the administration and not worry if it will cause a quarter tick in the stock price.
Nu
Here's something to ponder when we talk about premium pay:
Annual Income - 4th Year 320 Captains
NWA
70 Hours 90 Hours Difference
$141,960 $182,520 28%
UAL
$ 99,960 $128,520 28%
Frontier
$107,520 $138,240 28%
AWA
$102,480 $131,760 28%
JBLU
$ 99,179 $141,684 43%
Take a very powerful pref bidding tool and put in the hands of a few people who don't think that each pilot at this airline is necessarily deserving of a good line (like the "slackers" in LGB) and you get the Have's and the Have-Not's.
Regardless of the line leveling that's going on right now (take a look at #237 and higher in LGB, or #300 and higher in FLL) it's going to take longer and longer for a pilot to get a line and to upgrade and to get out of the 80 hour range. Which means that if you want the brass ring you have to spend fewer days with your family work more redeyes and basically bust your ass. Bust your ass for ten years and you're going to get pretty tired of it. These old bodies weren't meant to do what we do to them. What I'm saying is - people are going to burn out trying to achieve premium pay because there is such a tremendous disinsentive to fly less. I'm already burnt out and I just got here 3 years ago - of course that could have been the 10 legs a day I used to do in the J-Sled that did it.
In another year, it might be 2 years on reserve followed by 2 years of line leveling at 75 hours. That means 4 years after upgrade to even get the chance to bust your ass to eek out that 85 hours.
In my opinion - this pay system was a give-away to the pre-IPO guys.
They cleaned up on their stock options - fine. I won't say another word.
BUT I WANT MY BASE PAY BACK! - now there's a good slogan.
Note:
I've found that there are a lot of jetBlue pilots asking about a good forum for discussions such as these. While this site has a good interface, I think that it's more geared toward job seekers. I would like to recommend that we carry this dialogue over to: airlinepilotcentral.com which used to be airlinepilotpay.com (it will still redirect you). I would also ask all of you to recommend to other jetBlue pilots, that they at least lurk on some of these sites even if they don't want to post. Communications between the pilot group is essential. Particularly with a new survey coming out.
I'll see you all at the other site.
Annual Income - 4th Year 320 Captains
NWA
70 Hours 90 Hours Difference
$141,960 $182,520 28%
UAL
$ 99,960 $128,520 28%
Frontier
$107,520 $138,240 28%
AWA
$102,480 $131,760 28%
JBLU
$ 99,179 $141,684 43%
Take a very powerful pref bidding tool and put in the hands of a few people who don't think that each pilot at this airline is necessarily deserving of a good line (like the "slackers" in LGB) and you get the Have's and the Have-Not's.
Regardless of the line leveling that's going on right now (take a look at #237 and higher in LGB, or #300 and higher in FLL) it's going to take longer and longer for a pilot to get a line and to upgrade and to get out of the 80 hour range. Which means that if you want the brass ring you have to spend fewer days with your family work more redeyes and basically bust your ass. Bust your ass for ten years and you're going to get pretty tired of it. These old bodies weren't meant to do what we do to them. What I'm saying is - people are going to burn out trying to achieve premium pay because there is such a tremendous disinsentive to fly less. I'm already burnt out and I just got here 3 years ago - of course that could have been the 10 legs a day I used to do in the J-Sled that did it.
In another year, it might be 2 years on reserve followed by 2 years of line leveling at 75 hours. That means 4 years after upgrade to even get the chance to bust your ass to eek out that 85 hours.
In my opinion - this pay system was a give-away to the pre-IPO guys.
They cleaned up on their stock options - fine. I won't say another word.
BUT I WANT MY BASE PAY BACK! - now there's a good slogan.
Note:
I've found that there are a lot of jetBlue pilots asking about a good forum for discussions such as these. While this site has a good interface, I think that it's more geared toward job seekers. I would like to recommend that we carry this dialogue over to: airlinepilotcentral.com which used to be airlinepilotpay.com (it will still redirect you). I would also ask all of you to recommend to other jetBlue pilots, that they at least lurk on some of these sites even if they don't want to post. Communications between the pilot group is essential. Particularly with a new survey coming out.
I'll see you all at the other site.
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And finally, let's consider the word performance when we consider pay for performance.
Is performance 10 redeyes a month? Is performance missing every weekend with your family for the next 6 years? Is performance deadheading to JFK to fly an airplane OAK to LGB and just squeeking in at 15:55 of duty? Is performance taking 12 days off because that's what you have to do to reach the 80 hour "average" mark? Is performance sitting in that cursed van to Kew? Is performance being released from reserve at 5:00 am so you can fly a redeye that night?
or
Is performance flying single day trips on bankers hours with 18 days off? What I am asking is: do these few pilots contribute 43% more to this company than the reserve who's being asked to turn his sleep clock on and off like a machine?
Of course, you should be paid more for flying 90 hours but we're not talking about a shallow curve of 28% here. We're talking about 43%!
If 80 hours is the assumed point where we hit average then the pilot who's stuck on reserve or the pilot who's being line capped is being punished with very real dollars - or - the pilot killing himself to fly redeyes month after month who decides to take a break and fly day trips will be punished for his efforts. Is it fair that when we throttle back for our own well-being or for family reasons, that our pay should fall off so precipitously?
Most of our pilots from 100 and up are always going to defend a system where the junior pilots are paid less than industry average to subsidize a salary at the top that is higher than industry average. Most of the middle 300 captains will be a mixed group depending upon who's burnt out. The bottom 100 captains would more than likely support a change to this system. Certainly, if you're an FO at jetBlue you would be misguided to support a system that may be many years from paying you $120,000 annually and this interval is only going to get longer - and - when you do scratch your way to 320 Captain making 85 hours - how long till YOU burn out. Will it cost you your marriage or your family? Will you spend all of your time either working or recovering from work - using those proven AMP techniques?
It would be interesting to put this to a vote sometime down the road.
I encourage anyone who feels that a change to an industry standard slope of 28% to voice your opinion clearly and loudly to your fellow pilots, to management, and most definately in the new satisfaction survey.
This system will not stand indefinately. Nobody can realistically say that, ten years from now, this system isn't gone. Because by then it will seem so unfair that the outcry will be undeniable. Let's get it changed sooner rather than later.
Don't worry, it won't hurt jetBlue's productivity. There's no open time anyway and just as they can level our lines at 72 hours they can jack them up to 88. Pref bidding can decide to grant open time or to award it all out. Pref bidding is the ultimate determiner of productivity.
This pay system is a boondoggle and it should be abolished.
Is performance 10 redeyes a month? Is performance missing every weekend with your family for the next 6 years? Is performance deadheading to JFK to fly an airplane OAK to LGB and just squeeking in at 15:55 of duty? Is performance taking 12 days off because that's what you have to do to reach the 80 hour "average" mark? Is performance sitting in that cursed van to Kew? Is performance being released from reserve at 5:00 am so you can fly a redeye that night?
or
Is performance flying single day trips on bankers hours with 18 days off? What I am asking is: do these few pilots contribute 43% more to this company than the reserve who's being asked to turn his sleep clock on and off like a machine?
Of course, you should be paid more for flying 90 hours but we're not talking about a shallow curve of 28% here. We're talking about 43%!
If 80 hours is the assumed point where we hit average then the pilot who's stuck on reserve or the pilot who's being line capped is being punished with very real dollars - or - the pilot killing himself to fly redeyes month after month who decides to take a break and fly day trips will be punished for his efforts. Is it fair that when we throttle back for our own well-being or for family reasons, that our pay should fall off so precipitously?
Most of our pilots from 100 and up are always going to defend a system where the junior pilots are paid less than industry average to subsidize a salary at the top that is higher than industry average. Most of the middle 300 captains will be a mixed group depending upon who's burnt out. The bottom 100 captains would more than likely support a change to this system. Certainly, if you're an FO at jetBlue you would be misguided to support a system that may be many years from paying you $120,000 annually and this interval is only going to get longer - and - when you do scratch your way to 320 Captain making 85 hours - how long till YOU burn out. Will it cost you your marriage or your family? Will you spend all of your time either working or recovering from work - using those proven AMP techniques?
It would be interesting to put this to a vote sometime down the road.
I encourage anyone who feels that a change to an industry standard slope of 28% to voice your opinion clearly and loudly to your fellow pilots, to management, and most definately in the new satisfaction survey.
This system will not stand indefinately. Nobody can realistically say that, ten years from now, this system isn't gone. Because by then it will seem so unfair that the outcry will be undeniable. Let's get it changed sooner rather than later.
Don't worry, it won't hurt jetBlue's productivity. There's no open time anyway and just as they can level our lines at 72 hours they can jack them up to 88. Pref bidding can decide to grant open time or to award it all out. Pref bidding is the ultimate determiner of productivity.
This pay system is a boondoggle and it should be abolished.
Dizel8
Douglas metal
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2003
- Posts
- 2,817
Let's just pay everyone straight salary,all lines will be built by the company to 76.5 hrs mixing good and bad trips and we will use rotating seniority for bidding.
Maybe we should even consider having single pay scale for CA and FO, after all, we do the same job for the same company.Of course, I would like to propose this company wide, one payscale for all, I mean what make the pilots so much more important than a ramper, both are needed to get the flight out.
That would seem pretty fair to me.
Maybe we should even consider having single pay scale for CA and FO, after all, we do the same job for the same company.Of course, I would like to propose this company wide, one payscale for all, I mean what make the pilots so much more important than a ramper, both are needed to get the flight out.
That would seem pretty fair to me.
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iflynights
Active member
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2004
- Posts
- 28
Realistic/FNG,
I agree with your perceptions 100%. I would be reaching my two year mark with Jetblue, but I decided to move elsewhere after the 190 pay was released. The pilots were outraged and got management's attention, but in the end, the rates remained the same. This showed me that management has a 6th value that they don't tell us about, keep costs low by "paying rock bottom wages". Their "compensation package" or "blended rate" is purely BS. Who wants to have to fly 90 hours a month to get paid well? They also pulled a Bush ploy and turn it into a "We should have kept the evergreen agreement" rather than the real problem of "this pay is terrible and a kick in the teeth to your pilots and the industry in general." They talked about the "blended rate" again and told you how much money a first or second year guy could make if he bid the 190. And it seemed that most people bought it!
The top 200 are definitely steeped in blue koolaid. Their stock options are still worth quite a bit, almost everyone elses options are worthless. Jetblue pilots are the probably the most productive anywhere (maybe Southwest?). You work hard there, and even put on the blue gloves to help clean airplanes to save the company money. Management says they have to keep costs low to keep profit sharing up, but I personally care more about BASE PAY than profit sharing!
Upgrades are slowing, the way I see it is that you have to nearly double the fleet to upgrade (very small amount of retirements and the airplanes are being used to capacity). So, if you are hired today, it will take nearly 5 years to make A320 captain. That is alot of time at very weak FO pay or very weak 190 pay. I don't see a motivated crew force in the future.
I decided to leave Jetblue after I loss trust in management. After all, you have no contract, just a five year agreement. This agreement was made to deter unionization, something I think Jetblue needs (just my opinion). Management has built a strong following with the top 200, many of which couldn't get jobs at a major airline when they were hiring everyone and their brother (apologies to the few who were visionairies and saw an opportunity).
Realistic/FNG, I hope you guys can make some changes there. Remember, Jetblue is all about COST. You are the essential part of the equation and management will distract with their white papers and the like, but in the end, they are focused on paying you as little as they can get away with. If more people jump ship and increase training costs, they may actually feel generous and give you a raise. Good luck
I agree with your perceptions 100%. I would be reaching my two year mark with Jetblue, but I decided to move elsewhere after the 190 pay was released. The pilots were outraged and got management's attention, but in the end, the rates remained the same. This showed me that management has a 6th value that they don't tell us about, keep costs low by "paying rock bottom wages". Their "compensation package" or "blended rate" is purely BS. Who wants to have to fly 90 hours a month to get paid well? They also pulled a Bush ploy and turn it into a "We should have kept the evergreen agreement" rather than the real problem of "this pay is terrible and a kick in the teeth to your pilots and the industry in general." They talked about the "blended rate" again and told you how much money a first or second year guy could make if he bid the 190. And it seemed that most people bought it!
The top 200 are definitely steeped in blue koolaid. Their stock options are still worth quite a bit, almost everyone elses options are worthless. Jetblue pilots are the probably the most productive anywhere (maybe Southwest?). You work hard there, and even put on the blue gloves to help clean airplanes to save the company money. Management says they have to keep costs low to keep profit sharing up, but I personally care more about BASE PAY than profit sharing!
Upgrades are slowing, the way I see it is that you have to nearly double the fleet to upgrade (very small amount of retirements and the airplanes are being used to capacity). So, if you are hired today, it will take nearly 5 years to make A320 captain. That is alot of time at very weak FO pay or very weak 190 pay. I don't see a motivated crew force in the future.
I decided to leave Jetblue after I loss trust in management. After all, you have no contract, just a five year agreement. This agreement was made to deter unionization, something I think Jetblue needs (just my opinion). Management has built a strong following with the top 200, many of which couldn't get jobs at a major airline when they were hiring everyone and their brother (apologies to the few who were visionairies and saw an opportunity).
Realistic/FNG, I hope you guys can make some changes there. Remember, Jetblue is all about COST. You are the essential part of the equation and management will distract with their white papers and the like, but in the end, they are focused on paying you as little as they can get away with. If more people jump ship and increase training costs, they may actually feel generous and give you a raise. Good luck
"Let's just pay everyone straight salary,all lines will be built by the company to 76.5 hrs mixing good and bad trips and we will use rotating seniority for bidding."
"Maybe we should even consider having single pay scale for CA and FO, after all, we do the same job for the same company.Of course, I would like to propose this company wide, one payscale for all, I mean what make the pilots so much more important than a ramper, both are needed to get the flight out."
Here's an interesting ploy that is used time and again. Try to restate something in such an exagerated and extreme manner that it seems ludicrous. This only works with simple minds however and pilots do not have simple minds.
I am simply proposing a 28% slope. How do you get from that to your outragous proposal?
"Maybe we should even consider having single pay scale for CA and FO, after all, we do the same job for the same company.Of course, I would like to propose this company wide, one payscale for all, I mean what make the pilots so much more important than a ramper, both are needed to get the flight out."
Here's an interesting ploy that is used time and again. Try to restate something in such an exagerated and extreme manner that it seems ludicrous. This only works with simple minds however and pilots do not have simple minds.
I am simply proposing a 28% slope. How do you get from that to your outragous proposal?
Dizel8
Douglas metal
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2003
- Posts
- 2,817
"many of which couldn't get jobs at a major airline when they were hiring everyone and their brother"
Wow, way to stab your ex fellow employees in the back, sure hope you will never need their help.
"Here's an interesting ploy that is used time and again. Try to restate something in such an exagerated and extreme manner that it seems ludicrous. This only works with simple minds however and pilots do not have simple minds.
I am simply proposing a 28% slope. How do you get from that to your outragous proposal?"
Well, when FNG320 says just to sacrifice long term viability to run a company to the satisfaction of the employees, one must consider that pretty simple. The math he runs is way to simplistic.
What makes a 28% slope better than treating every one fairly, so why not take it to the most egalitarian and pay all the same. Why pay the pilots on the 190 less than the 320, since we are all supporting the same company. Of course, things being what they are, that would probably mean a paycut for the 320 pilots and a raise on the 190,from what it is now. UPS does that IIRC, AWA, Alaska, YX does that, why not jetBlue?
If you are treating everyone the same, why is that outrageous, if anything, it is even better than what you propose and it would be fair to all, wouldn't it? In your scenario, you would still be stuck with the "have and have nots", although the difference would be less, it is still there!
Now, you may think I am being tongue in cheek or exagerating for purpose, but I am not. So it seems to me, that you for some odd reason is okay with a certain amount of inequity, what I cannot figure out is why?
Wow, way to stab your ex fellow employees in the back, sure hope you will never need their help.
"Here's an interesting ploy that is used time and again. Try to restate something in such an exagerated and extreme manner that it seems ludicrous. This only works with simple minds however and pilots do not have simple minds.
I am simply proposing a 28% slope. How do you get from that to your outragous proposal?"
Well, when FNG320 says just to sacrifice long term viability to run a company to the satisfaction of the employees, one must consider that pretty simple. The math he runs is way to simplistic.
What makes a 28% slope better than treating every one fairly, so why not take it to the most egalitarian and pay all the same. Why pay the pilots on the 190 less than the 320, since we are all supporting the same company. Of course, things being what they are, that would probably mean a paycut for the 320 pilots and a raise on the 190,from what it is now. UPS does that IIRC, AWA, Alaska, YX does that, why not jetBlue?
If you are treating everyone the same, why is that outrageous, if anything, it is even better than what you propose and it would be fair to all, wouldn't it? In your scenario, you would still be stuck with the "have and have nots", although the difference would be less, it is still there!
Now, you may think I am being tongue in cheek or exagerating for purpose, but I am not. So it seems to me, that you for some odd reason is okay with a certain amount of inequity, what I cannot figure out is why?
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8vATE
Cruel, Nice, Whatever
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2002
- Posts
- 538
The simple solution is to pay everyone what THEY think they deserve..
Cost of living increases should be demanded!
Even though RASM has declined drastically....
Hire more so everyone can take unlimited PTO...
(even though you can bid PTO vacation, and have two FLICA PTO windows to use.. one seniority driven and one first come-first serve)
There shouldn't be any incentive to be productive.. so eliminate the 150% pay.. lets be more inefficient!
Seniority is an UNFAIR and UNJUST system to determine upgrades and schedules... Lets use brown-nosing!
Let our costs jack up to where we can't finance capital improvements or aircraft acquisitions....
Sorry you guys feel cheated or lied to.....
I believe the system needs to be tweaked.. but I doubt you will EVER see old legacy numbers, benefits and work rules....
Just take a quick look at UAL's current pay rates....
This is a dysfunctional industry....
If you're not happy with your future... go do something else...
Talk to me after you've worked at a stagnant and shrinking company for 10 years... after you've taken pay CUTS... after you've been on reserve for 10 years.... after you've been furloughed...
This place isn't perfect...
But how about being rational, and taking some responsibility for the decisions you've made... like accepting employment here and deciding to upgrade at first chance or living at an offline city to commute....?
I guess the glass is always half empty to some people...
Cost of living increases should be demanded!
Even though RASM has declined drastically....
Hire more so everyone can take unlimited PTO...
(even though you can bid PTO vacation, and have two FLICA PTO windows to use.. one seniority driven and one first come-first serve)
There shouldn't be any incentive to be productive.. so eliminate the 150% pay.. lets be more inefficient!
Seniority is an UNFAIR and UNJUST system to determine upgrades and schedules... Lets use brown-nosing!
Let our costs jack up to where we can't finance capital improvements or aircraft acquisitions....
Sorry you guys feel cheated or lied to.....
I believe the system needs to be tweaked.. but I doubt you will EVER see old legacy numbers, benefits and work rules....
Just take a quick look at UAL's current pay rates....
This is a dysfunctional industry....
If you're not happy with your future... go do something else...
Talk to me after you've worked at a stagnant and shrinking company for 10 years... after you've taken pay CUTS... after you've been on reserve for 10 years.... after you've been furloughed...
This place isn't perfect...
But how about being rational, and taking some responsibility for the decisions you've made... like accepting employment here and deciding to upgrade at first chance or living at an offline city to commute....?
I guess the glass is always half empty to some people...
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