AWA/US Air --integration plan

[xanderman]

What about the real Parker....?

It is my opinion, based on what Doug has stated many times, that any kind of DOH or staple is NOT going to happen. Period! It simply costs too much money. Too many unnecessary training events. U east guys can sit there and sound like a bunch of aXXholes if they want but it will not do them any good!

Oh yeah! I almost forgot,"Furlough career expectations?!?!" What the heck is that?

 

[Green]

xanderman,

DOH will not happen. However, the scenario that you need to be worried about that could likely happen would be AWA fo's losing upgrades to furloughed us airways pilots. The arbitrator could come up with an award that prevents bump/flush while still "honoring" the years of service that furloughees bring to the table. Furloughed pilots could recieve longevity that exceeds current AWA fo's. Of course they would not be able to bump us out of our present positions but as new vacancies (upgrades) become available they could possibly beet us to them. This would protect the 'career expectations' of Us Airways furloughees. As if they had any....

Junior fo's at AWA could end up being long term fo's at the new US Airways.

 

[vetrider]

xanderman,

DOH will not happen. However, the scenario that you need to be worried about that could likely happen would be AWA fo's losing upgrades to furloughed us airways pilots. The arbitrator could come up with an award that prevents bump/flush while still "honoring" the years of service that furloughees bring to the table. Furloughed pilots could recieve longevity that exceeds current AWA fo's. Of course they would not be able to bump us out of our present positions but as new vacancies (upgrades) become available they could possibly beet us to them. This would protect the 'career expectations' of Us Airways furloughees. As if they had any....

Junior fo's at AWA could end up being long term fo's at the new US Airways.

Hopefully an arbitrator would find a way to split future vacancies so both east and west have shots at them. As far as percentages, who knows, thats for the arbitrator, hopefully the west wont get shut out in the way you describe.

That to me is a major difference I see between east and west. Most if not all east guys would probably disagree with what I just said, they would likely think they deserve all the future vacancies. Most west guys seem alot more willing to share, so to speak, they truly don't want to deny anyone anything altogether. I wish that feeling were more mutual.

And no, I wasn't talking about widebody vacancies. That is the one area where I feel the east is justified in wanting to keep to themselves, I don't have a problem there at all.

 

[Green]

Widebody flying aside I don't think any US Airways furloughed pilot should upgrade ahead of a single AWA pilot. Do you? I don't think that would be 'sharing' that would be giving away the farm.

Prior to this merger upgrade was running 7 years or so at AWA and about 20 years at US Airways. Our future was a tad brighter than theirs. We shouldn't sacrifice the careers of our junior pilots to appease the furloughees who had no prospects to speak of.

I hope you're not buying into the rhetoric of the east. If it ends up being a deal like that then it will just be another instance of AWA pilots getting screwed/settling.....

 

[Crzipilot]

A furloughed pilot shouldn't get upgrade ahead of a single AWA pilot??? That's mighty fine thinking there..........I could understand not bumping him out of base or position, But you see, there's this thing called retirements. And if you look at some of that data put out, with the amount of retirements slated for the east side, not counting early outs, even furloughed bottom 10% guys were looking at holding left seat prior to some of those at AWA. It's an interesting graph. Granted, upgrade might have been running at 7 years at AWA, but in the next 5 or so, I believe you will be seeing a wave of movement from east side retirements. Now to think that any AWA f/o should claim full benefit of that movement occuring on the east side......sounds kinda greedy to me.....

 

[Doug Parker]

.
But you see, there's this thing called retirements.

Don't forget that thing called CHAPTER 7 - that AAA was less than 30 days away from - where's the carrer expectation there CRZI ?? (and the numbers don't lie - stay tuned around DEC 06 !!)

And what if the Age 60 gets repealed ?? What was the AAA upgrade outlook then - I guarantee AWA would still be half the time as AAA??

When you guys quit playing games with certifying your list and mumbling your DOH rhetoric - maybe you'll realize who has the leverage this time when all of the merger documentation comes to light - or maybe it'll take the arbitrator to explain it to you.................

Lookin forward to 1st Q 07 !!



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[vetrider]

Widebody flying aside I don't think any US Airways furloughed pilot should upgrade ahead of a single AWA pilot. Do you? I don't think that would be 'sharing' that would be giving away the farm.

Prior to this merger upgrade was running 7 years or so at AWA and about 20 years at US Airways. Our future was a tad brighter than theirs. We shouldn't sacrifice the careers of our junior pilots to appease the furloughees who had no prospects to speak of.

I hope you're not buying into the rhetoric of the east. If it ends up being a deal like that then it will just be another instance of AWA pilots getting screwed/settling.....

Not buying all their rhetoric, but they do have a few arguments that have merit. I don't think all their guys should get vacancies any more than I think all of ours should. I am hoping the arbitrator can come up with something that works somehow, someway.

 

[vetrider]

A furloughed pilot shouldn't get upgrade ahead of a single AWA pilot??? That's mighty fine thinking there..........I could understand not bumping him out of base or position, But you see, there's this thing called retirements. And if you look at some of that data put out, with the amount of retirements slated for the east side, not counting early outs, even furloughed bottom 10% guys were looking at holding left seat prior to some of those at AWA. It's an interesting graph. Granted, upgrade might have been running at 7 years at AWA, but in the next 5 or so, I believe you will be seeing a wave of movement from east side retirements. Now to think that any AWA f/o should claim full benefit of that movement occuring on the east side......sounds kinda greedy to me.....

To me as a west pilot what you say makes sense and has merit. There are pilots at both sides who are deserving of future vacancies. The problem with the easts hard line on doh, if that hypothetically happened all future vacancies would be pretty much only be for the east. For all the rhetoric on both sides, I am optimistic an arbitrator will figure out something that will work equally bad and equally good for both sides.

 

[81Horse]

I am optimistic an arbitrator will figure out something that will work equally bad and equally good for both sides.

Hmm. If (1 @ bad) + (1 @ good)/20-year fence = equality, then Arbitrator Roberts is your man!

Seriously, you guys should do this yourselves.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

I can see that this USAir merger is going as well as the last 5 did!

Oh well, at least it will give the guys that were still pissed about the Piedmont merger something new to sink their teeth into!

Whatever the outcome, I guarantee that neither side will be happy.......and that is usually a sign that it was a fair merger.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Merge the lists on a % basis: if you are in the top 10% of USAirways or AWA, you should be in the top 10% of the combined airline. On top of that, have fences around hubs - no USAirways guy can bid PHX and vice versa for X number of years. USAirways guys get the A330 while AWA guys get the Hawaii-bound 757s for X years... That seems fair to me...

On Your Six for arbitrator!!



PHXFLYR

 

[Crzipilot]

.
But you see, there's this thing called retirements.

Don't forget that thing called CHAPTER 7 - that AAA was less than 30 days away from - where's the carrer expectation there CRZI ?? (and the numbers don't lie - stay tuned around DEC 06 !!)

And what if the Age 60 gets repealed ?? What was the AAA upgrade outlook then - I guarantee AWA would still be half the time as AAA??

When you guys quit playing games with certifying your list and mumbling your DOH rhetoric - maybe you'll realize who has the leverage this time when all of the merger documentation comes to light - or maybe it'll take the arbitrator to explain it to you.................

Lookin forward to 1st Q 07 !!
.

Dougie, Dougie Dougie......

You see the fun thing about this, is you can hypothisize all you want. But not everyone has the same crystal ball that you have, and there were as many outcomes possible as there are soothsayers.
Basically what I'm getting at, is all of that is speculation. There's also speculation that AWA could/would was in the same position as US, just a few steps behind them in line.
The fact of the matter is, without the merger both carriers would be in a different position then they are today, exactly what that position is, you can't tell because it didn't happen. Part of the reason your CHP 7 argument doesn't hold water on the East side, is we've been hearing that for 15+ years, and guess what, we are still here.
Putting that aside, I believe the DOH rhetoric is the same as your slotting rhetoric. Both sides wanting to get the most for their membership and stating such. I.E. it's negotiating. A starting point if you will. Eventually it will hopefully come down to some protection for the east side to realize their retirement movement. (which net net the AWA side will benefit from either way) and the West side will get much larger fleet, faster movement, protection of complete list (no bump/flush)
In addition, of the 1800 furloughees, a majority of those will never come back, they have moved on, and doubtfull they will take 40-80k paycuts to come sit bottom reserve at LGA. This of course could change if it gets dragged out, and furloughs slowly trickled back. There's a few of us, for one reason or another that are still hanging around. In my case, after 9/11, 8000 hrs of Heavy International time, with about 1500 A320 time wasn't worth much to anyone, they seemed to like those with 4000hrs of PIC in a b1900 instead.....If other carriers start getting iffy looking, they make take the jump back to US.
As for the West Jr. guys, I don't think you have much to worry about, as I'm sure our MEC will take care of us furloughed ones (as there already reports published regarding conversations, that if they were to chip off the bottom 1/3 of the east list, most of their headaches would go away) I think worst case scenerio for them, is they stay active (as they aren't going to furlough to bring back furloughed) and as recalls happen there will be a slotting of the furloughees into the active Jr. guys. Again I say that's prob. worst case for you guys. Which if you protect bases (and even if you don't) you'll see no difference. As alot of the guys here are rooted on the east coast and would rather stay here.

 

[joevollers]

This thread is awesome...
Reminds me of the whole "is the BCS adequate; or should College football have Playoffs" argument...
But the best part is we get to hypothesize about what Career expectations" actually means... pick our team.... but then the arbitrator gets to decide.. one guy gets to do all the voting to decide who's #1... Believe me, the real Parker will have more influence over him than either of our MEC's..

I wish there could be a more NFL style playoff system for all of this...

The funny part is that none of us are now pondering how to protect ourselves in future mergers...HMMM... How could we protect ourselves from future mergers...HMMM How were those AA guys able to do it... HMMM Oh yeah.. they're not ALPA

 

[PHXFLYR]

Dougie, Dougie Dougie......

You see the fun thing about this, is you can hypothisize all you want. But not everyone has the same crystal ball that you have, and there were as many outcomes possible as there are soothsayers.
Basically what I'm getting at, is all of that is speculation. There's also speculation that AWA could/would was in the same position as US, just a few steps behind them in line.
The fact of the matter is, without the merger both carriers would be in a different position then they are today, exactly what that position is, you can't tell because it didn't happen. Part of the reason your CHP 7 argument doesn't hold water on the East side, is we've been hearing that for 15+ years, and guess what, we are still here.
Putting that aside, I believe the DOH rhetoric is the same as your slotting rhetoric. Both sides wanting to get the most for their membership and stating such. I.E. it's negotiating. A starting point if you will. Eventually it will hopefully come down to some protection for the east side to realize their retirement movement. (which net net the AWA side will benefit from either way) and the West side will get much larger fleet, faster movement, protection of complete list (no bump/flush)
In addition, of the 1800 furloughees, a majority of those will never come back, they have moved on, and doubtfull they will take 40-80k paycuts to come sit bottom reserve at LGA. This of course could change if it gets dragged out, and furloughs slowly trickled back. There's a few of us, for one reason or another that are still hanging around. In my case, after 9/11, 8000 hrs of Heavy International time, with about 1500 A320 time wasn't worth much to anyone, they seemed to like those with 4000hrs of PIC in a b1900 instead.....If other carriers start getting iffy looking, they make take the jump back to US.
As for the West Jr. guys, I don't think you have much to worry about, as I'm sure our MEC will take care of us furloughed ones (as there already reports published regarding conversations, that if they were to chip off the bottom 1/3 of the east list, most of their headaches would go away) I think worst case scenerio for them, is they stay active (as they aren't going to furlough to bring back furloughed) and as recalls happen there will be a slotting of the furloughees into the active Jr. guys. Again I say that's prob. worst case for you guys. Which if you protect bases (and even if you don't) you'll see no difference. As alot of the guys here are rooted on the east coast and would rather stay here.

Who did you fly DC-8's for?

PHXFLYR

 

[TWA Dude]

The funny part is that none of us are now pondering how to protect ourselves in future mergers...HMMM... How could we protect ourselves from future mergers...HMMM How were those AA guys able to do it... HMMM Oh yeah.. they're not ALPA

The only funny part is you thinking what the APA did is something to be emulated. I may not like how this integration turns out for me but at least I know the process is fair.

 

[joevollers]

The only funny part is you thinking what the APA did is something to be emulated. I may not like how this integration turns out for me but at least I know the process is fair.

What in life is fair?

Should AWA/USAIRWAYS not compete in "fare wars" as they may be detrimental to other carriers?

 

[TWA Dude]

What in life is fair?

ALPA merger policy is fair. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

a. Preserve jobs.

b. Avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other.
c. Maintain or improve pre-merger pay and standard of living.
d. Maintain or improve pre-merger pilot status.
e. Minimize detrimental changes to career expectations.​

 

[Crzipilot]

Who did you fly DC-8's for?

PHXFLYR

Arrow Air in miami. Actually 727's and Dc-8s 92-99. Was 2 weeks from class for capt upgrade when US called to offer me the "chance of a lifetime" Chance is right....almost as good as the chance with the lottery....LOL

 

[joevollers]

ALPA merger policy is fair. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

a. Preserve jobs.

b. Avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other.
c. Maintain or improve pre-merger pay and standard of living.
d. Maintain or improve pre-merger pilot status.

e. Minimize detrimental changes to career expectations.​

So please answer the other question... I'd like to hear your take on that..

BTW.. if ALPA merger policy is so fair... then why don't we just all be employees of ALPA. That way our seniority would dictate those of us who have jobs. And the health of the airlines we chose to work for would not matter so much.

 

[TWA Dude]

So please answer the other question... I'd like to hear your take on that..Should AWA/USAIRWAYS not compete in "fare wars" as they may be detrimental to other carriers? ... if ALPA merger policy is so fair... then why don't we just all be employees of ALPA. That way our seniority would dictate those of us who have jobs. And the health of the airlines we chose to work for would not matter so much.

That's a great idea but it can't work under capitalism. Though we belong to the same union(s) we are nonetheless competitors.

 

[joevollers]

That's a great idea but it can't work under capitalism. Though we belong to the same union(s) we are nonetheless competitors.

Actually many other unions work like that...

My point is what yours is too... we are nonetheless competitors...
Do I want to see DAL, NWA guys on the street? NO... but we are as you say "nonetheless competitors" so why not try to take steps to protect ourselves in future mergers....

I undertand you feel you were shafted in TWA/AA however you were "nonetheless competitors"..

If we are "nonetheless competitors" then we can't be worried about how fair life is for every other pilot..."That's a great idea but it can't work under capitalism"

 

[TWA Dude]

If we are "nonetheless competitors" then we can't be worried about how fair life is for every other pilot

Not sure what your point is. You made a comment about how AA was able to accomplish what they did due to them being non-ALPA. Though it's for anyone to speculate what kind of result an arbitrator would've handed down for TWA-AA I would've happily taken my chances on it. At the end of the day for AWA-USA all the pissed-off pilots have a ready target: the arbitrator. That should allow us all to move on peacefully.

 

[joevollers]

TWA Dude..

First off... I am grateful that this discussion.. although we do not agree has been able to remain "relatively" civil.. as opposed to what frequently happens on this site..

I know you have been burned in the past TWA/AA was unfair... as will happen under capitalism; the stronger group prevailed. Guys like you suffered..

I (a junior FO) want to assure ourselves that going forward in this industry our pilot group ( the now aaa/awa group), and myself specifically. are (is) as protected as possible..

I feel that your attitiude of "ALPA merger policy is fair" as an answer to what we should do going forward, in these times where future consolidation is a distinct possibility, is dangerous (maverick!)..

My point is this... Given that we are "nonetheless competitors" with other groups that we may merge with in the future, shouldn't we try to take steps to protect our pilot group?... If we were to merge w/ UAL,DAL,NWA or whomever, I think we should take steps now to ensure a bright future for those of US on our property ( aaa/awa)!!!!

 

[joevollers]

Not sure what your point is. You made a comment about how AA was able to accomplish what they did due to them being non-ALPA. Though it's for anyone to speculate what kind of result an arbitrator would've handed down for TWA-AA I would've happily taken my chances on it. At the end of the day for AWA-USA all the pissed-off pilots have a ready target: the arbitrator. That should allow us all to move on peacefully.

My point is we need to look beyond what happens with this merger and what might with the next..

Yours seems to be that any future merger that may happen may happen. So lets not protect our guys because you want to make sure it's fair for all pilots involved ..even if we were buying them right before they went out of business..

Take the potential AWA/ATA deal... I haven't done any research to see what your posts were about that but I'd be willing to bet that you thought a ratioed pilot integration was appropriate there... Conversely, if we just went 6 to 1 on the top 25% of their list and stapled the rest, that would have been "UNFAIR"... but I bet it wouild have netted more ATA pilot jobs than currently exist.

If being non-ALPA gives us the ability to set terms like that it may actually be more fair and preserve more jobs..

 

[joevollers]

So i just did two posts because I thought the first was deleted.

 

[Occam's Razor]

How about this: We put the combined seniority lists in a Cub, and put it on a moving treadmill that moves at the same speed as the airplane, but in the opposite direction.

Then do a coin toss between the two MEC Chairmen. The winner gets to predict first:

If it takes off, ____ gets to choose method of integration. If it doesn't take off, ____ gets to choose.

That will settle MOST of the unsolvable issues on this Forum.

 

[TWA Dude]

So lets not protect our guys because you want to make sure it's fair for all pilots involved ..even if we were buying them right before they went out of business..

So you advocate taking advantage of other pilots because of the financial condition of their employer? Though you're not alone I'm not like that.

If being non-ALPA gives us the ability to set terms like that it may actually be more fair and preserve more jobs..

Whaddya mean, "more fair"? You mean more advantageous for you, of course. At least admit it. I don't mean to sound unduly harsh on you but the fact is you want to take advantage of the USA guys for your own gain. Of course I want what's best for me as well but not at their expense. This is my way of flipping-off the APA, by not doing to others what they did to me. It just wasn't right. I favor ALPA merger policy because it's right, not because it's necessary the best thing for me. And I'm junior too.

 

[joevollers]

So you advocate taking advantage of other pilots because of the financial condition of their employer? Though you're not alone I'm not like that.Whaddya mean, "more fair"? You mean more advantageous for you, of course. At least admit it. I don't mean to sound unduly harsh on you but the fact is you want to take advantage of the USA guys for your own gain. Of course I want what's best for me as well but not at their expense. This is my way of flipping-off the APA, by not doing to others what they did to me. It just wasn't right. I favor ALPA merger policy because it's right, not because it's necessary the best thing for me. And I'm junior too.

DUDE--
I accept ALPA merger policy because we currently are ALPA..
Go Back and read my posts.. this has not been about the awa/us merger..
I am talking about how we can protect ourselves in future mergers.. as long as we are financially sound and can dictate terms( like we could if we were not alpa then us as a group could dictate terms to newco about future mergers.. I understand you disagree and think ALPA merger policy is a good model for all Airline mergers .. It's OK that we disagree... We are now in fact Alpa, read my posts, I have not proposed sticking it to USA guys... I'm just proposing some proper "capitalist" boundaries for the future.. If that means No ALPA, then so be it

 

[81Horse]

How about this: We put the combined seniority lists in a Cub, and put it on a moving treadmill that moves at the same speed as the airplane, but in the opposite direction.

Then do a coin toss between the two MEC Chairmen. The winner gets to predict first:

If it takes off, ____ gets to choose method of integration. If it doesn't take off, ____ gets to choose.

That will settle MOST of the unsolvable issues on this Forum.

This is the funniest thing I've seen here in ... oh, let's say weeks. :laugh:

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

How many guys at the Former USAir will retire in 5 years? Since their date of hire is from '89 and earlier, I think it will be at least half. I heard all will be retired in under 10 years. Integrating by date of hire will not hurt too badly. Nice try trying to take advantage of the USAir guys by saying you "saved" USAir. USAir has a lot of international out of some very good airports. If it was such a bad deal to merge, why did you do it? Surely you saw some benefit to America West in combining the companies.

Now the guys on furlough, that is the tough cookie to crack. I think many will not come back. Those that do deserve a medal for loyalty. Don't you think they deserve a good deal of some sort?? Not date of hire but something.