Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

Aviation industry tries to undercut key change

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web

TEXAN AVIATOR

Bewbies
Joined
Oct 21, 2002
Posts
1,132
Aviation industry tries to undercut key change/ ALPA supports

Aviation industry tries to undercut key change

By JOAN LOWY




WASHINGTON
The aviation industry is trying to water down a key safety change recently passed by Congress in response to a regional airline crash last year that killed 50 people.


A Federal Aviation Administration advisory panel dominated by airlines, companies that employ pilots to fly corporate planes and university flight schools wants to reduce by two-thirds a requirement that airline co-pilots have a minimum of 1,500 hours of flying experience -- the same experience threshold that captains must meet.


The key issue is money, according to officials familiar with the panel's deliberations. Airlines worry that if the FAA raises the threshold for co-pilots -- also called first officers -- from the current minimum of 250 hours, airlines will be forced to raise pilot salaries and benefits in order to attract more experienced fliers, said the officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because they weren't authorized to speak publicly.


Most airline pilots have far more experience than 1,500 hours. But industry analysts have forecast a pilot shortage if the economy starts to expand, which could create a premium for experience. The salaries of corporate and other private pilots are affected by airline salaries.


University flight schools are similarly concerned that if beginner pilots have to accrue 1,500 hours of flight experience before they can be hired by an airline, they'll skip expensive university training in favor of amassing flight time through per-hour instruction.


Using a provision in the new law that allows the FAA to give prospective pilots some credit for flight school training, the panel proposed allowing airlines to hire university-trained first officers with as few as 500 hours, according to a copy of the panel's recommendations.
The roles of airline captains and first officers have changed over the years. Today, both pilots are expected to be able to fly a plane equally well and to share duties.


The FAA formed the committee this summer just before Congress passed a far-reaching aviation safety bill, including the boost in required flight hours.
The law was prompted by a regional airline crash near Buffalo, N.Y., in February 2009 that killed 50 people. The flight's 24-year-old first officer earned about $16,000 in the year before the accident. She lived at home with her parents near Seattle, but flew across the country in order to reach the airline's base in Newark, N.J., in time for the flight.


A National Transportation Safety Board investigation concluded the first officer and the flight's captain were likely suffering fatigue at the time of the accident. Neither had slept in a bed the night before -- the first officer napped in a cockpit jumpseat, the captain in a crew lounge where sleeping was discouraged. Pilots, particularly at regional airlines, often can't afford to live in the communities where they're based. Some share cheap apartments near their base so they can grab sleep before flights. Others simply nap wherever they can.


Lawmakers who proposed the 1,500-hour requirement last year said at the time they hoped it would lead to higher salaries.
"The new safety law explicitly requires 1,500 flight hours," Rep. Jerry Costello, D-Ill., chairman of the House Transportation and Infrastructure aviation subcommittee, said this week. "Any modification of that number has to be justified as making safety stronger than current ... requirements."


Sen. Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., who pushed the requirement in the Senate, said Congress was "crystal clear" that 1,500 hours was to be the minimum level required for co-pilots.
FAA spokeswoman Laura Brown said in a statement that the panel's recommendations won't be the sole factor in the agency's determination of how to implement the new law.


FAA Administrator Randy Babbitt, a former airline pilot, has expressed skepticism about the 1,500 hour requirement, saying it is more important to improve the quality of the pilot training than to increase the amount of experience in the cockpit.


That has also been the industry position. "The number of hours flown should not be the sole measure of qualification and proficiency," said David Castelveter, a spokesman for the Air Transport Association.
Roger Cohen, president of the Regional Airline Association, said money had nothing to do with the recommendation. He said academic training is "far more useful in training pilots for modern airline operations" than hours amassed "towing banners above the beach."


The two pilot organizations on the panel were divided on the issue. The Air Line Pilots Association, whose members include pilots at both regional and major airlines, backed the recommendations. But the Coalition of Airline Pilot Associations, whose members include pilot unions at major airlines and cargo carriers, dissented, saying that even enhanced training isn't a substitute for experience.


The panel also proposed enhancing pilot training programs so that pilots are exposed to greater variety of flight scenarios, and requiring that first officers pass a proficiency test specific to the type of airliner they'll be flying.


Only captains have to pass that test now.
 
Last edited:
Sadly, there was a time when this type of article would've caused outrage from most pilots. Now, we (or at least I) kind of expect it.

Sad.
 
ALPA backs the recommendation of 500 hours. No wonder there is a movement away from them, 'nuf said.
 
The leaders at ALPA national are politicians and have other things to think about and sometimes that is not the right thing. I am not happy with the age 65 rule and how they spent a lot of time and money fighting it and then when they realised their cause was lost switched sides spending more money justifying it. In the end age 65 rule made a terrible speed bump in our careers but it was the right thing to be done. When the defined pensions went away either the feds needed to lower the retirement age (not going to be done) or let the pilots work until they cannot pass their physical (or 65)
 
All this means is that PFT jobs got more expensive, minimum wage F/O slots are fly for free job, and "talk into Mr. Microphone jobs are more abundant than ever.
 
If it raises costs it will cost jobs. There is an important part of the equation. The marginal ticket buyer, you know the one who buys the 90 day advance $99 ticket, will elect not to travel on the airlines. I know it is hard to imagine anyone would elect to drive when they could fly. But a lot of people do it. The market and individual self-interest will dictate what wages should be. It is basic economics, if you raise the price of commodity, less people will purchase that commodity. With less people purchasing there is not as much demand for that commodity, therefore there will be fewer, but better paid pilots. As with many regulations, good for senior, not so good for everyone else.
 
If it raises costs it will cost jobs. There is an important part of the equation. The marginal ticket buyer, you know the one who buys the 90 day advance $99 ticket, will elect not to travel on the airlines. I know it is hard to imagine anyone would elect to drive when they could fly. But a lot of people do it. The market and individual self-interest will dictate what wages should be. It is basic economics, if you raise the price of commodity, less people will purchase that commodity. With less people purchasing there is not as much demand for that commodity, therefore there will be fewer, but better paid pilots. As with many regulations, good for senior, not so good for everyone else.

How do you know just how many people will not buy the $99 ticket when it goes up to $105? When the airlines just made record profits do you think there might be some flexibility in ticket prices? Little Alaska just made $100 million. That is a significant premium on ticket prices and associated fees. Are you saying there is NO flexibility there? You seem to think pilot wages are the lynch-pin in ticket prices but they are not. Fuel has gone up and I don't see our planes getting less full. Why are pilots the only villains in the price of a ticket in your book?
 
How do you know just how many people will not buy the $99 ticket when it goes up to $105? When the airlines just made record profits do you think there might be some flexibility in ticket prices? Little Alaska just made $100 million. That is a significant premium on ticket prices and associated fees. Are you saying there is NO flexibility there? You seem to think pilot wages are the lynch-pin in ticket prices but they are not. Fuel has gone up and I don't see our planes getting less full. Why are pilots the only villains in the price of a ticket in your book?
Pilots are not villains, I wish they all made 1990 wages, however you cannot ignore the person who buys the ticket. Define drastic drop? 5%, that would result in 5% reduction in seats available. And 10% reduction in F/O's and a 5% reduction in CA seats. Air travel is a bargain coast to coast, no doubt, but lets look at DTW -TPA/ MCO, busy route. It can be easily driven in about 16 hours, compared to 9 hours on AT. You 1 hr drive from to arrive 2 hrs early, fly to ATL, 1.5 hour, 1 hour change planes 1.5 hour to TPA, 1 hr wait for baggage and pick up rental car 1 hr drive to the condo. For a family of 4, the $30 per seat will be a motivator to drive. I know have troubled thinking that anyone could be crazy enough to want to drive when they could fly. But many people view it as an alternative to flying. This is not a management view this just an observation from talking to family, neighbors, and others. Pilot should do whatever they think is best for themselves, Adam Smith's way, but there are unintended consequences of the market movement that are well beyond the ability of any group to dictate how the market will react. If fly because you like to, you don’t worry about this stuff.
 
Pilots are not villains, I wish they all made 1990 wages, however you cannot ignore the person who buys the ticket. Define drastic drop? 5%, that would result in 5% reduction in seats available. And 10% reduction in F/O's and a 5% reduction in CA seats. Air travel is a bargain coast to coast, no doubt, but lets look at DTW -TPA/ MCO, busy route. It can be easily driven in about 16 hours, compared to 9 hours on AT. You 1 hr drive from to arrive 2 hrs early, fly to ATL, 1.5 hour, 1 hour change planes 1.5 hour to TPA, 1 hr wait for baggage and pick up rental car 1 hr drive to the condo. For a family of 4, the $30 per seat will be a motivator to drive. I know have troubled thinking that anyone could be crazy enough to want to drive when they could fly. But many people view it as an alternative to flying. This is not a management view this just an observation from talking to family, neighbors, and others. Pilot should do whatever they think is best for themselves, Adam Smith's way, but there are unintended consequences of the market movement that are well beyond the ability of any group to dictate how the market will react. If fly because you like to, you don’t worry about this stuff.

Ok. This flying because you like to is naive. Sorry for saying that, but unlike you many do not have a military pension to fall back on. They actually need to make a living flying. You give one example of a market and feel someone would drive 16 hours vs paying $20 more for a ticket. If you have not noticed, it has not been the passenger dictating seat prices. It has been the competition jousting for market share. Prices have risen as have associated fees and the airlines are making money like never before. There is more room to raise ticket prices without impacting demand significantly.
 
If it raises costs it will cost jobs. There is an important part of the equation. The marginal ticket buyer, you know the one who buys the 90 day advance $99 ticket, will elect not to travel on the airlines. I know it is hard to imagine anyone would elect to drive when they could fly. But a lot of people do it. The market and individual self-interest will dictate what wages should be. It is basic economics, if you raise the price of commodity, less people will purchase that commodity. With less people purchasing there is not as much demand for that commodity, therefore there will be fewer, but better paid pilots. As with many regulations, good for senior, not so good for everyone else.

Bulchit!! They'll only continue to whine about it but fact is fares and fees have been steadily increasing over the last couple years and so too has ridership, and that's because airlines have become very stingy on the supply side. If you don't believe it look at the average fare of what is still the LCC gauge, SWA. It ain't cheap!

Slowly they are being reeducated that it actually cost money to keep get to point B in a hurry. Besides, I would like to see them cross the great oceans in their winnebagos and Explorers, or for that matter the ship...
 
Bulchit!! They'll only continue to whine about it but fact is fares and fees have been steadily increasing over the last couple years and so too has ridership, and that's because airlines have become very stingy on the supply side. If you don't believe it look at the average fare of what is still the LCC gauge, SWA. It ain't cheap!

Slowly they are being reeducated that it actually cost money to keep get to point B in a hurry. Besides, I would like to see them cross the great oceans in their winnebagos and Explorers, or for that matter the ship...
SWA is no longer the low cost carrier, six weeks out they are tuff to beat, three weeks out, almost everyone beats them. If there is a better way to do, then for go for it, perhaps I am all wrong and the public will not will change any of their purchasing plans based upon the price of a ticket. Now if you think that pilot can be paid more without raising prices then that is for you to work out with your union and management. But remember there has to be a certain level of profitibility in order to have access to funds. It all boils down to economics. Best of luck. BTW I really do wish that you made $250K per year and your F/O $125K per year
 
SWA is no longer the low cost carrier, six weeks out they are tuff to beat, three weeks out, almost everyone beats them. If there is a better way to do, then for go for it, perhaps I am all wrong and the public will not will change any of their purchasing plans based upon the price of a ticket. Now if you think that pilot can be paid more without raising prices then that is for you to work out with your union and management. But remember there has to be a certain level of profitibility in order to have access to funds. It all boils down to economics. Best of luck. BTW I really do wish that you made $250K per year and your F/O $125K per year

And yet southwest pilots do AND the company continues to beat margin expectations quarter after quarter. Isn't your premise that pilot wages and company profitability are naturally and economically inversely proportional to one another?
 
Think about it like this YIP, say you have a family of 4 and you want to travel from Seattle to Dallas to visit your parents. It costs $1500 round trip today to fly. It takes 4 days to drive each way. 20 miles a gallon at $3 a gallon and say you do about 700 miles a day. 35 gallons a day at $3 = $105 a day x 4 days = $420. $840 including the trip back. 3 nights in a hotel on the way at $120 a night = $360. $720 both ways. $1560. Have not included any food or stops for fun along the way. Say about $80 a day for food. $500 more. Now we are over $2000 (ballpark) just to drive there. The family lost about 8 days of precious vacation time and incurred a cost greater than flying. It costs $1500 to fly round trip. If you were the traveler, all things considered, would you pay $1750 to fly round trip and have the extra days of vacation and less headache? Say it is winter and you have to drive over icy roads? Given this example, can a few bucks be added for employees? How many days of vacation do you give your people? Do they want to spend 8 days driving to and from Wally World or do they want to maximize their vacation?

Now, here is the kicker, would the other airlines match your $1750 or would they try to keep marketshare at $1500? What exactly is driving the ticket prices?
 
Do they want to spend 8 days driving to and from Wally World or do they want to maximize their vacation?
Depends. Will they get to meet a Christie Brinkley look-alike in a bar while wearing white patent leather shoes?
 
Think about it l.......750 or would they try to keep marketshare at $1500? What exactly is driving the ticket prices?
I agree DFW-SEA airlines tickets are a bargin, but airlines have to fly DTW-TPA and fill seats to make money. DTW - TPA can be driven without loosing much time
 
I agree DFW-SEA airlines tickets are a bargin, but airlines have to fly DTW-TPA and fill seats to make money. DTW - TPA can be driven without loosing much time

Not much time!!!! It's 4 days driving assuming 600 miles a day! 2400 miles roundtrip. At 20 miles per gallon it is about 120 gallons of gas = $360. Two nights in a hotel = $250. Food and other stuff: $200. $810. On AirTran it cost $207 to fly round trip! Can you believe that! $207 round trip! For a family of 4 that is $828. Throw in some bag fees and you are about $900. But, you lost 4 days of precious vacation time. I think you would be insane to drive.
 
With less people purchasing there is not as much demand for that commodity, therefore there will be fewer, but better paid pilots. As with many regulations, good for senior, not so good for everyone else.


So be it. The pendulum is too far into the "too many pilots and paid crap" side of the spectrum. No, I am not senior in my airline.
 
Not much time!!!! It's 4 days driving assuming 600 miles a day! 2400 miles roundtrip. At 20 miles per gallon it is about 120 gallons of gas = $360. Two nights in a hotel = $250. Food and other stuff: $200. $810. On AirTran it cost $207 to fly round trip! Can you believe that! $207 round trip! For a family of 4 that is $828. Throw in some bag fees and you are about $900. But, you lost 4 days of precious vacation time. I think you would be insane to drive.
Who drives 600 miles a day? That is like 8 hours of driving, 900-1100 is easily done with multi drivers lots of insane people in this country, my family and neighbors to be among them
 
Who drives 600 miles a day? That is like 8 hours of driving, 900-1100 is easily done with multi drivers lots of insane people in this country, my family and neighbors to be among them

Throw a baby or small kids in the back and there you have it. 70mph for about 8.5 hours. 3 stops for about 30 minutes each and you are at 10 hours. Thats enough for most families. You and your neighbors can drive to Wally World. I and my neighbors will fly. Maybe its something in your water.
 
ALPA backs the recommendation of 500 hours. No wonder there is a movement away from them, 'nuf said.


ALPA is backing a more qaulity education and lower time.

1500 hours of non challenging time while experience isn't the same....

A good example a pilot with 300 hours flying a jet with bombs off a boat.

It seems your post isn't thought out....
 
Last edited:

Latest resources

Back
Top