Average time for first solo?

[Folding_Expert]

I've heard of people taking their first solo flight with as little as 5 hours logged, which seems rather scary to me. However, it seems the median is around 10, judging by the comments on this board and others.

Due to whatever reason, my flight school tends to average around 15-20 hours, which is about where I will be in the next few weeks. To me, this seems about right, considering that I am just now beginning to feel confident enough to be able to fly the pattern without anyone's assistance.

I apologize if this topic has been beaten with a stick, but what are your thoughts on this?

 

[greygoose]

It doesnt matter what the average solo time is, what is more important is when your instructor thinks your ready. Yes some people can solo at a very low time, but ideally you must ask were they trained properly on the requirements?
In addition you need to remember every schools location is different. Some schools has to have their flights go out further to get to a safe practice area, which could easily add 10 to 15 mins onto a flight.
To answer your question, I would say the average that I have seen from the schools that I have seen and the area I had come from is 12 to 20 hours. I have even heard of a student up to 50 something hours by time they soloed.

 

[midlifeflyer]

The fact that people learn at different rates is pretty irrelevant to the end results.

On top of that, time to solo is subject to a whole bunch of variables some of which are out of the pilot's control. Time to solo generally increases as regulations change. The list of pre-solo tasks that existed 20 years ago was smaller than today. Flight schools and CFIs will to varying degrees require more than the minimum skill set the regulation requires. A pilot who flies 5 times a week will solo much sooner than one who flies once every two weeks. Pilots who learn to fly at rural non-towered airports with little traffic and get to see a normal traffic pattern every single time they fly will tend to solo sooner than the student at the busy Class D with 7 in the pattern, who gets to see what a normal pattern looks like maybe once every 5 flights, and has to learn to deal with rapid fire communications and weird instructions ("Cessna 1234X, make a 360 on downwind for spacing").

Point was brought home to me with an excellent student. I teach out of a very busy Class D. My student was pretty close to solo, but we still had some work to do. He went to visit family in a rural area and decided to take a local lesson. The CFI offered to solo him after one flight. The issues of whether the CFI really covered everything that the regulations required him aside, I know that in the context of =that= airport, my student =was= ready to solo.

 

[User546]

I agree a lot with what Mark says.

And to add to that, I always ask my students when I first start flying with them about what their short term goal is. Are they training just to solo as quickly as possible, or is that not as important to them. If they tell me they are training jsut to solo as quickly as possible, we usually sit down and have a good talk.

We have a guy on field who instructs that reguarly puts his students up to solo in the 5 hour range. Whether thats safe, smart, and following all the regs the way they were intended - its not up to me to judge.

But heres my viewpoint on it. The first few hours are critical to a new student who has never flown before. These first few hours is where you cement the building blocks on which all their future training is going to build upon, and grow from. I don't want to focus on just one area, for instance getting them proficient enough JUST to do three touch n goes. I make sure they are comfortable with stalls, they have good basic attitude instrument flying (turns to headings, level offs, altitude/airspeed maintenance, etc.) and keep them focused on the big picture. You got to make the student feel as confident as you can before sending them loose. I typically make the students do a decent job at slow flight, steep turns, stalls, and traffic pattern ops, before sending them on to solo. Thru those maneuevers it's rounding out there capabilities and understanding more of the machine that they're flying when their instructor won't be there with them.

My students average solo in the 20 hour range. But once they solo, we move right into X-C work,and once that is done, we then just hammer out the maneuvers some more and get him proficient enough to take the checkride.

And because of that, I have yet to send a student up for solo that I haven't been 100% confident in, and can honestly say I've never been nervous watching a student go around the pattern that first time!

 

[I.P. Freley]

I wasn't sure about when I soloed so I went back and looked... I soloed at 24hrs and got my PP with 63hrs TT. Looking back at when I was an active CFI (at the same airport I got my PP), I'd say that was fairly low time on average because of the nature of the airport, an extremely busy Class D (KFRG) field. The weekend warrior type student usually needed 35hrs to solo, if memory serves, and about 85hrs TT to get the PP.

 

[sqwkvfr]

I wasn't sure about when I soloed so I went back and looked... I soloed at 24hrs and got my PP with 63hrs TT. Looking back at when I was an active CFI (at the same airport I got my PP), I'd say that was fairly low time on average because of the nature of the airport, an extremely busy Class D (KFRG) field. The weekend warrior type student usually needed 35hrs to solo, if memory serves, and about 85hrs TT to get the PP.

Holy shiite, Batman!!

85 hours!!

 

[User546]

Holy shiite, Batman!! 85 hours!!

Try going to Pan Am! Most students I started out with averaged 100-110 hour when they got their PPL!!!!

Kind of seems backwards that a school who promises you to get your license faster then anywhere else would take twice as long! And thats not no weekend warrior stuff. This is flying twice a day, five days a week!!

 

[Flechas]

85 Hrs? Danm!!!
In DAB most of my students soloed around 15-20 and got their PPL between 45-55....

 

[I.P. Freley]

What can I say, we didn't have people who were devoting themselves entirely to getting their PPL... These weren't people heading for a career as pilots, and they were considered devoted if they flew 5hrs/mo (I had up to 30 "regular" students at any given time). I'd spend the first half of any lesson bringing them back up to the point they were at the last time they flew... Giving them about 30mins of time towards improvement on any given day. Not to mention spending a quarter of any lesson simply waiting for takeoff or waiting to be called back by the tower at the end of the lesson. It wasn't unusual, on a weekend, to be one of ten airplanes in the pattern, and you don't get many touch-and-goes when you're on a 12-mile downwind, or number 15 for callback while circling a VFR checkpoint outside the class D.

 

[sqwkvfr]

Good God! When I git my PPL, I was a "weekend warrior" and had to take a couple of months off because I screwed up my knee...and I still soloed in 10 and passed the checkride with 43.

Then again, my instructor was a real stand-up guy...he's sit with me for 30-45 minutes discussing whatever and refused to charge me for any ground.

 

[Lead Sled]

Try going to Pan Am! Most students I started out with averaged 100-110 hour when they got their PPL!

Is it just me or does anyone else have to question the competency of instructors and schools whose students require 30+ hours to solo and 100+ hours to pass a PPL checkride? What's wrong with this picture?

'Sled

 

[wiggsfly]

Is it just me or does anyone else have to question the competency of instructors and schools whose students require 30+ hours to solo and 100+ hours to pass a PPL checkride? What's wrong with this picture?

This one I would have to disagree with. When I taught for a University I would solo students in 10-15 hours. Now that I'm part 61 I tend to solo them at about 20, although I've seen more than one out here with 50 hours or more and no solo. It isn't necessarily the school. It's the location and the student that make the difference. For instance at the University airport there was more than one runway which greatly diminished the crosswinds. Here there is one runway, it almost never faces the wind, and it is surrounded by gravel pits and lagoons which tend to create some really fun air patterns. This doesn't help a studeny who is looking to perfect his or her landings.

The other factor then is the student. From my experience those who are going to be professional pilots tend to solo a lot quicker just because of motivation and the fact that they often fly far more often than a hobbyist pilot. Also, hobbyist pilots often have a lot more to think about than their flight training and therefore wind up taking things a lot slower. I have one student who is a doctor and usually takes the first 1/2 hour of any flight just trying to concentrate on the plane and not his patients.

Of course there is also the occasional odd ball as well. I knew a kid in college who had well over 100 hours when he first soloed. He was such an a$$ that no one would fly with him.

In the end I think each situation needs to to be taken for what it is and although there are a lot of pilots around here who probably soloed pretty quick, for many students the circumstances are not going to allow for that kind of progress.

 

[hydroflyer]

Midlifeflyer hit it right on the head with his answer. As an instructor, I always hated having a student ask me to compare their progress to someone else's. You really can't make a comparison since people learn at different rates and each persons circumstances are different (goals, training rate, airspace...). Instead I would tell them where we were at and what needed to be done before solo and was honest. In the end, it doesn't make a difference how long it takes you to solo, all that matters is you soloed when you were ready and you are a competent pilot when you receive that certificate.

I did have one student on his first solo have to go around after an airplane took position on a runway and held (non-towered airport) and took-off in front of my student as he was initiating his go-around. Great decision on my students part, very questionable on the other pilots part. It made me very happy that as part of the pre-solo flight I do with students, we always cover a go-around. I almost went over and said something to the other pilot while he was fueling after my student returned, however I felt it was better to celebrate the back-to-back solos of two of my students who knew each other on the same day. Definately a favorite moment in my instructing experience.

Looking back, I soloed at 19.6 hours, which frankly doesn't mean anything other than that was the most memorable day in my flying career so far. It is a day you will never forget!

 

[Ralgha]

refused to charge me for any ground.

That instructor needs to get smacked with the "why the **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** am I working for free" stick.

Someone should tell him that Walmart would let him work for free in a heartbeat and it would be a lot less stressful.

 

[Flechas]

That instructor needs to get smacked with the "why the **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** am I working for free" stick.

Someone should tell him that Walmart would let him work for free in a heartbeat and it would be a lot less stressful.

Agree, I only did free instruction for good frinds or other CFIs (Had to like them though)

 

[sqwkvfr]

That instructor needs to get smacked with the "why the **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** am I working for free" stick.

Someone should tell him that Walmart would let him work for free in a heartbeat and it would be a lot less stressful.

He was the victim of an unscrupulous instructor during HIS training that charged him ground for every little conversation that they had.

In fact, he told me a story about how he was standing at a urinal and his instructor came in the BR, walked up the the next urinal and started to do his business...then he started to talk about flying.

My instructor cut him off and told him to stop talking because he couldn't "afford" to have the conversation.

That's the story I'd always hear when I asked him why he didn't charge me for ground.

Anyhow, I was usually able to change the numbers at the dispatch desk to pay him for his time...but I had to do it outside of his presence, otherwise he would object.

I'll bet that REALLY pisses you off, huh?

 

[Ralgha]

Pisses me off that you changed the numbers or that he's an idiot? I applaud you for being honest and fair. Him on the other hand...

He somehow thinks that providing instruction for free will change the fact that he was overcharged in the past? It's in the past, get over it. He needs to realize that starving to death while instructing for free isn't going to change a thing about his previous instructor and he is only hurting himself and all other quality CFIs that try to earn a decent living.

Not to say you can never give free instruction, I gave my CFI friends free instruction, and in return they gave me free instruction when I needed it. So in the end, I didn't lose anything since had we charged each other we would have just traded the same money back and forth.

 

[qmaster3]

I've flown with 2 CFI's, both retired airline types. There were times when I was not charged for ground, or all my ground. Guess that's the way aviation used to be. Then again I always did bring the beer.

 

[Cat Driver]

For whatever it is worth I soloed in 14 hours, due partly to flying spaced to far apart because of lack of money. I received my PPL at 30 hours the time required back then.

But maybe with tailwheel airplanes and we just had it to easy in those days.

Anyhow I guess it worked out O.K. because after fifty two years I'm still at it and have yet to have an accident in an aircraft.

For comparison regarding cost, solo was $8.00 per hour and dual was $10.00 per hour. And I made 35 dollars a week driving truck.

 

[P3 Tweek]

Qm3 > Ax2

qmaster3,

You did it the same way I did. I think my training was about as good as possible. I am so thankful for it. My former CFI was a P-3 PPC and now is a captain for LUV. At the time, we were both starving university students. He was a midshipman NROTC NESEP. He needed the flight time and I needed the COML ASEL/AMEL/I. Man those were fun times now so long ago.

P-3C IFT Tweek

PS. Of course, the beer and dinners/lunches were on me. Cheese enchiladas, with Coors and hot salsa shooters. I remember the old C-206 at NUQ with the 12 volt system and 2 blade prop for $26/hr wet! Those were great days bro! Soloed in 1973 with 9.3 hours in a PA28-140B. PP ASEL with 42.1 hours under the `old' FAR 61.

 

[rvsm410]

I had forgotten my times and dusted off the old log book, circa 1978 40 hours required for PPL then..

Solo was 8.7 hrs N45430 c150

PPL Checkride was 56.6

Part 61 school, kCOI Merritt Island air Service

 

[Lead Sled]

We just moved into a new place and I found my old logbooks. I also found my father's logbook - he learned to fly back in 1950 something in a 2-control Ercoupe. I was just reading an article somewhere about how the average student was able to solo an Ercoupe in 5 hours or so. My dad had a little over 4.3 hours when he soloed. He told me that his instructor was having a contest with another instructor to see who could solo a student the quickest! (Scary eh?) My dad's instructor lost. I can remember reading an ad in some old flying magazine where, as a marketing stunt, some woman soloed an Ercoupe with 1 hour of dual. Things were different back then.

In my case, I was able to fly quite a bit with my dad - he owned a Tri-Pacer with a couple of other guys. I started flying with a CFI in time to be able to solo on my 16th birthday. I joined a flying club and flew an Aeronca 7AC Champ. I had 6.3 hours when I soloed. By the time I turned 17 I had about 60 hours - not because I needed that many to get ready for the checkride, but because I spend as much time as I could flying the club's Champs while I was waiting for my 17th birthday.

Avbug may remember this - back in the late 60's there was a flying club at Bountiful Skypark that had a couple of Champs and a Cessna 170. The Champs cost $4.00 per hour wet, the C170 was $7.00. I didn't fly the 170 a lot because it cost too much. FWIW, the FBO had a new Mooney M20C that went for $16.00 an hour. I had to rent a new 1967 C-150 for my checkride. It cost me $6/hour (wet) in 10 hour blocks. I think my PPL ended up costing me about $400. Everything's relative though - I only made $1.50 an hour bagging groceries.

'Sled

 

[JAFI]

I agree with the comments that comparing different students solo times and time to pass a PPL are apples and oranges. First, everyone learns at different rates. Weather, aircraft availability, Instructor ability, student ability, money availability, how busy were the airport(s), and the list can go on and on determine the number of hours needed to complete the task. What matters (IMHO) is that the student is able to operate the aircraft safely.

We are not a factory that punches out so many widgets per hour but (hopefully) a learning institution that individually produces safe and competent airman.

It is not how many hours it took to pass but how well is the student turned airman is able to operate an aircraft.

JAFI

P.S. I remember getting paid in cash in an envelope not much larger than todays credit card when a 10 cent per hour raise was big stuff, regular gas was around 40 cents a gallon, a new C-150 was $14 per hour wet.......

 

[Illini Pilot]

well, i was just filling out one of my students cumulative flt records at our 141 school...he had 20 to solo and 63 total including a stage check and end of course ride to get his private. i got my at DPA and took about 35 hrs but looking back at it i think i got jacked for a few extra hours. honestly, i've seen some **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** good students that just couldn't get landings, and then all of a sudden it clicks...its a crapshoot really and just depends on how the student understands the whole process and how quickly he is able to apply it routinely

 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

It would be easy to solo a motivated student in less than 10 hours. Particularly at a non-controlled field. On the other hand, if compliance with the FAR's means anything and the CFI believes that the student should have a good understanding of the maneuvers he/she is performing, then anything less than 12-15 hours seems almost impossible. My stundents probably averaged around 20-22, the younger ones were closer to 15-17.

FWIW, a WWII pilot told me that you were a washout if you didn't solo in under 8 hours.

Mr. I.

 

[Ralgha]

FWIW, a WWII pilot told me that you were a washout if you didn't solo in under 8 hours.

Back during WWII there weren't nearly as many requirements prior to solo as now. 8 hours or less was very doable back then.

 

[UnAnswerd]

I'll tell you one thing. By the next lesson I'll have over 12 hours, and I feel like I could not land it by myself. I need a lot of work in the pattern, and I see solo flight as something very far away...........

 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

Back during WWII there weren't nearly as many requirements prior to solo as now. 8 hours or less was very doable back then.

Of course. I'm sure most CFI's could get someone solo'd in about 5 hours if landings were about 4 hours of the training.

Mr. I.

 

[Fly_Chick]

Every student and instructor is different. I find that the students who do their homework, and come prepared to a lesson are in much better shape to solo sooner.

Part 61.87 lists fifteen items that need to be covered before a student can solo. Granted some of those items include things like proper preflight, taxiing, yet some of the other things including emergency procedures and equipment malfunctions cannot be demonstrated, grasped and covered in one lesson (engine failures and comm failures for example).

The instructor is also responsible for making sure that person "Demonstrated satisfactory proficiency and safety, as judged by an authorized instructor, on the maneuvers and procedures required by this section".

15-20 hours seems normal for solo-ing. Keep in mind there are so many factors (besides student/instructor ability) that come into play that it is hard to establish a concrete number (towered vs. non-towered, weather, congestion, maintenance).

As far as not charging for ground instruction, I totally disagree.

Granted, there is some give and take, such as when a student pays for lunch or dinner during our cross-country stop and we discuss the flight during the meal, I will not charge. Yet if I have spent an hour on a pre-flight of the aircraft three times in a row and the student just does not put any effort into it, I will charge. If I explain, from the beginning, how to add oil, or add air to the tires, I will charge.

I always charge for ground, much of it is at my discretion and in the long run the student ALWAYS makes out. How many times have we, as CFIs, offered up our advise, experience, weather interpretations, airspace questions, when not "on the clock" with a specific student?

I fly for the pure love of flying, and will go out of my way to assist a student who is committed, dedicated, interested in learning and respects my interest in his/her success.

Enough of my rant...

 

[Cat Driver]

At the risk of taking some flack here can anyone explain to me why taking into consideration the difference in training hours to get a license today and twenty five or thirty years ago I find the general flying skills level are not as good today as back then?