Avantair

[RideTheWind]

*******
Ride the Wind is now "riding the pine" (baseball term, you perv's..)for a week. Don't post links to porn/porn sites.

EF

 

[avbug]

Wow...lots of controversy and maudlin arguing over such a simple topic. The Piaggio has hot wings, heated by a small tube that runs adjacent to the leading edge. The edge surface itself isn't heated directly by the bleed air, but by radiationa and conduction (rather than convection). The duct tube runs very close to the leading edge, and radiates heat to the edge.

Yes, many aircraft with hot wings have shiny leading edges. This precludes damage to paint (ever seen a bleed leak in an engine nacelle turn the overlying paint bown?), and makes for a neater appearance. It also means that the paint, constantly heated and frozen, isn't as likely to chip off and create a poor appearance.

In the case of the Piaggio, the surface itself isn't heated directly. Further, the wing on the Piaggio is more critical. Most wings have a boundary layer separation at approximately 1/4 chord, whereas the Piaggio doesn't see this until approximately 1/2 chord. Leading edge continuity and smoothness is important to the aerodynamics of the airplane...let's face it, they wrung a lot of performance out of the design, and the aerodynamics are everything to that airplane. It's got the wing area of a Cessna 182 and the weight some five times that. Paint chips, even screw heads in the leading edge cause airflow separation and loss of aerodynamic efficiency...for that reason when maintenance is performed by removing or reinstalling the leading edge, the screw heads are covered with aerodynamic smoothing compound and the edge blended and painted.

In any case, the main wing leading edge is bleed air. The forward wing a blanket, the nacelle lips boots, the engine oil cooler inlet bleed air (some painted, some not), the windscreens are electrical, same for the angle of attack indicator/stall vane, ice detector, pitot tubes, and static ports.

The horizontal and vertical stabs are not heated nor protected by dedicated anti-ice or deice systems. Instead, four exhausts point backward, putting out considerable warm gasses that are distributed by the propeller. In some two hundred hours (I believe) of ice testing in flight behind ice sources, the factory couldn't ice the tail.

Numerous aircraft don't have ice protection on the tail. None have a system for circulating a cone of hot gases exernally over the tail to preclude icing, however. The Avanti does.

If you think they're interesting to look at, try working on one!

Someone commented on the room inside. I've ridden in the back, and I can say first hand that they're comfortable airplanes. Quiet, and comfortable. They're a lot bigger inside than they look. My first impression when I saw one on a ramp years ago, was that it was unusual looking. I asked the pilot if I could have a look inside. He invited me in for a sit down, and silly as it seems, the first thing I thought of was "clown car." You know the cars that look small outside, but thirty clowns climb out of when the door opens...like that. The amount of room is deceiving. Far from a clown car, however, it's a serious business aircraft and I'm quite impressed with the design.

 

[illeagle]

So how does one get hired to fly one of these sweet machines? Faxed the resume, willing to work as an FO, live nearby, chompin at the bit, but no carrot. Do they frown on unannounced visits from eager pilots in the Caldwell offices???

 

[Texasskicker]

Just for posterior ... i mean posterity sake

*******
Ride the Wind is now "riding the pine" (baseball term, you perv's..)for a week. Don't post links to porn/porn sites.

EF

I'm rolling on the floor laughing my a** off at this. For the sake of posterity, I had to preserve the "spankin'" Ride got for good reason. Im sure your mama always told you those dirty magazines were gonna make you blind. Now for a week at least, you are prolly not blind but your voice is gone and that conspicuous dunce cap is shinin' bright in the light.

AVBUG:

Having read the AIN article someone linked earlier, it does not paint a flattering picture of the Avanti, but that was a few years ago. I understand with the Avanti II many of these problems have been addressed.

So, I gotta ask.

The Piaggio pirhouette. (sp) Any truth to this; to get into the cockpit, you have to do a pirhouette that involves lifting the cushion with one hand, grabbing the handle with the other and dancing yourself into the cockpit, as described in the AIN article?

Hey, I would jump at the opportunity to fly one of these machines. Definitely a competitive product in today's market.

Tx.

 

[avbug]

You and I must have read different articles. I read the same article, and I thought it to be quite complimentary of the machine. The author was obviously impressed. I can tell you a little about the airplane from a maintenance perspective, and will limit my thoughts only to the fact that some of the very few shortcomings outlined at the end of the article have been addressed by service bulletins and parts changes.

What impressed me about the airplane was it's speed and economy. I believe it's set something like eight world speed records in it's class. It has the same fuel burns as a King Air 200, but is about 110 knots faster, and half again as high in the cruise altitudes. It's quiet, and roomy, and I don't personally see where anybody has much room to complain about the airplane.

I was very interested to go back and review the various comments about the operator in question, here...Avantair. Not a lot is written about them, but what really interested me was the complete lack of negative information. Everybody seems to like the airplane, everybody seems to like the company. In today's industry, that's saying a whole lot.

I don't know anything about you personally, or your background, but you seem to spend a lot more time here tearing folks down and insulting them than contributing to the discussion. Rather than gloating over whatever occured with ridethewind, how about sticking to topic and keeping the board a place where professionals can act like adults? that is not too much to ask. I noticed you dropped the cutsie literary drawl long enough to insult people by talking down to them about heated or protected flying surfaces. That wasn't necessary.

I suspect some here are genuinly interested in finding work, and if Avantair or any other firm has something to offer, then let those seeking them find it. They can do this without all the childishness thrown in here; it's not necessary, it's not professional, and it's unwarranted.

 

[Texasskicker]

Easy there cowboy.

You and I must have read different articles.

This is the article I read.

http://www.ainonline.com/Features/Pilotreports2001/AIN_pr_avanti701.html

AVBUG SAID: "but what really interested me was the complete lack of negative information."

I guess we did read different articles.

*************

Lookit. I just asked a question about ice and these hound dogs jumped on my hide. I can understand those who fly it wanna defend it. I was just lookin' for information. Yea Im havin fun jousting with these nitwits, but really I'm out to find out stuff about the aircraft.

As I said, its a hot rod of the sky. Cool enough.

Texasskicker....OUT.

 

[Corona]

The horizontal and vertical stabs are not heated nor protected by dedicated anti-ice or deice systems. Instead, four exhausts point backward, putting out considerable warm gasses that are distributed by the propeller. In some two hundred hours (I believe) of ice testing in flight behind ice sources, the factory couldn't ice the tail.

Numerous aircraft don't have ice protection on the tail. None have a system for circulating a cone of hot gases exernally over the tail to preclude icing, however. The Avanti does.

If you think they're interesting to look at, try working on one!

Someone commented on the room inside. I've ridden in the back, and I can say first hand that they're comfortable airplanes. Quiet, and comfortable. They're a lot bigger inside than they look. My first impression when I saw one on a ramp years ago, was that it was unusual looking. I asked the pilot if I could have a look inside. He invited me in for a sit down, and silly as it seems, the first thing I thought of was "clown car." You know the cars that look small outside, but thirty clowns climb out of when the door opens...like that. The amount of room is deceiving. Far from a clown car, however, it's a serious business aircraft and I'm quite impressed with the design.

Interesting analysis, Avbug, though I think there is a different reason why they didn't de-ice the vertical/horizontal stabs. I believe, from the article I read, that the airfoils are thin enough that they do not collect ice, not that the exhaust plume reaches the tail. (It does do a good job of keeping the prop clear of ice; another advantage to the pusher design.)

I agree with you the airplane is very impressive. The first Avanti I watched take off was at Canyonlands, UT. I couldn't believe how fast that bird howled out of there!

The performance and cabin are most impressive. In terms of weight, mission and payload, the Avanti is directly comparable to the last Turbo Commander I flew, which was also not a slouch @300 KTAS. The Avanti, however, does the same job nearly 100kts faster, with a bigger, quieter cabin and a real potty!

I particularly like how the skin is formed to the airframe. Instead of just riveting on aluminum plate, they actually form the skin to fit the frame pieces. Makes for a very smooth surface.

I suspect if crude oil hits $100/bbl, as some pessimists say, the Avanti will experience huge sales orders.

C

 

[FlyWithSean]

Texasskicker

You need to stop posting because you say you have 12,982 hours but you ask questions like you have 129 hours. Also if thats how many hours you have why wouldnt you just put 13,000. Your posts are horrible and you sound very uneducated in aviation. Do us all a favor and stop posting in this thread.

 

[SonnyD]

Um, yeah. How about that burried EFB question?

 

[avbug]

Interesting analysis, Avbug, though I think there is a different reason why they didn't de-ice the vertical/horizontal stabs. I believe, from the article I read, that the airfoils are thin enough that they do not collect ice, not that the exhaust plume reaches the tail. (It does do a good job of keeping the prop clear of ice; another advantage to the pusher design.)

That could very well be. I doubt I could shed much light on that directly without some first hand knowledge of the test program and the certification of of the airplanes. The information I provided is second hand; it was told me by the chief pilot of Piaggio America, which is the US branch of the Itallian company that makes the airplane.

I'd like to see some video of the testing in the ice to see what does go on out there.

 

[whiskytangofoxt]

The P180 does not need ice protection on the tail because, we have real nice exhaust ports infront of it and the props which are also not heated by normal means. In fact if you go back many years some airframes, due to the airflow over them do not form ice, this finding goes back a few years.... to Boeing and the 727.

 

[Safetycheck]

Anybody know who the Chief Pilot and DO is at Avantair?

 

[mike1mc]

I know they just let go of their Chief Pilot after a very short stay. I don't know management's side of the story, but I have a big problem with the way in which he was let go.

 

[hyper]

Hahaha! You do!? Really!? You got a big problem then in WHY he was let go? You obviously don't know ANY of the story or you wouldn't have any problems.

I know they just let go of their Chief Pilot after a very short stay. I don't know management's side of the story, but I have a big problem with the way in which he was let go.

 

[On Your Six]

Hahaha! You do!? Really!? You got a big problem then in WHY he was let go? You obviously don't know ANY of the story or you wouldn't have any problems.

Perhaps you could elaborate and not leave us hanging?