Avantair Union

[brokeflyer]

I think we are overpaid in many cases, except for the fact that we have to pass a physical every 6 months. Let the marketplace decide how many pilots there are and how much they get paid. How can anybody advocate, by the way, restricting the number of pilots who can realize their dream of becoming aviators just so the rest of us can make more money? Gad! I say that with all due respect, Brokeflyer.

you need to re-read what i wrote. I said limit the number of ATP's. not private certificates.

 

[dime line]

I think we are overpaid in many cases, except for the fact that we have to pass a physical every 6 months. Let the marketplace decide how many pilots there are and how much they get paid. How can anybody advocate, by the way, restricting the number of pilots who can realize their dream of becoming aviators just so the rest of us can make more money? Gad! I say that with all due respect, Brokeflyer.

Wow, thats all I can say

 

[gret]

Wow, thats all I can say

Agree...you don't need dreamers while most have to do it to make a living.

Getting a pilot's license today is way too easy and simply because some guy has a dream to fly, doesn't mean their qualified, or entitled, to fly a turbine aircraft. Heck, I want to dunk a basketball but it is not going to happen. The bar should be raised this can be accomplished very easily by having standards enforced that already exist. Flying in't a hobby for many...it is a job.

I'm very anti government regulation, but in this case it is necessary because we can't regulate ourselves. Flight schools and training providers benefit by having an abundance of pilots that are forced to use their services. The wash out rates are a joke.

 

[OHGOON]

I think we are overpaid in many cases....

Are you serious? Obviously you never worked for a regional...

If you're so embarrassed by your own income, why don't you give some back so that your company can be more competitive....or are you an exception and are worth every penny?

 

[OHGOON]

I'm very anti government regulation, but in this case it is necessary because we can't regulate ourselves.

...and this is why you and conservative pilots in general have no credibility anymore. You opine how regulation is bad and self regulation is preferable for most all sectors of our economy, all the while having no personal experience in any of them, but "reluctantly" see a necessity for it when it comes to the one sector of the economy that you do have some experience in...could it be that maybe there are more hidden reasons why self regulation has its inherent drawbacks in most other places too?

Case in point, ever wonder what the NFL would look like without refs?

This is also why unions are so important if we, as a profession ever want to be treated as worthwhile professionals. As a group, we can demand better pay and working conditions without having to fear for the loss of our jobs due to corporate retaliation.

Imagine for a moment, as a profession, we had something as organized and powerful as the AMA. Our professional status would be much higher with commensurate economic benefits to go along with it. It's all about asking for it from a position of strength. That strength can only come through unity.

Come to think of it, unions are a form of self regulation that create their own standards for their membership which in turn benefits the whole. Not holding my breath that conservative thinking will ever come to embrace that but it's undeniable that Unions do function as a check and balance on the industry as a whole without any direct government interference...

 

[gret]

"...and this is why you and conservative pilots in general have no credibility anymore."

Do you ever start out a conversation saying "good morning...how are you?" before you call the other person an imbecile and proceed to set them straight? ​

…”but it's undeniable that Unions do function as a check and balance on the industry as a whole without any direct government interference”...

Unions wouldn’t exist unless they were protected by laws and regulations issued by the Federal government.​

 

[gunfyter]

Unions should be conservative ... err umm Capitalist.

Capitalists often seek monopoly/cartel or dominant market share to command pricing ...

Thats all we want ... we are capitalists... especially pilots ... we bring capital to the table and that capital is us...

See ... "An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations"
sections:
I.8. Of the Wages of Labour
I.10. Of Wages and Profit in the Different Employments of Labour and Stock

But though in disputes with their workmen, masters must generally have the advantage, there is however a certain rate below which it seems impossible to reduce, for any considerable time, the ordinary wages even of the lowest species of labour.

I.8.15
A man must always live by his work, and his wages must at least be sufficient to maintain him. They must even upon most occasions be somewhat more; otherwise it would be impossible for him to bring up a family, and the race of such workmen could not last beyond the first generation.

.8.16
There are certain circumstances, however, which sometimes give the labourers an advantage, and enable them to raise their wages considerably above this rate; evidently the lowest which is consistent with common humanity.

I.8.17
When in any country the demand for those who live by wages; labourers, journeymen, servants of every kind, is continually increasing; when every year furnishes employment for a greater number than had been employed the year before, the workmen have no occasion to combine in order to raise their wages. The scarcity of hands occasions a competition among masters, who bid against one another, in order to get workmen,*17 and thus voluntarily break through the natural combination of masters not to raise wages.

I.8.18
The demand for those who live by wages, it is evident, cannot increase but in proportion to the increase of the funds which are destined for the payment of wages. These funds are of two kinds; first, the revenue which is over and above what is necessary for the maintenance;*18 and, secondly, the stock which is over and above what is necessary for the employment of their masters.

------------------------------
Some clips:
PART I
Inequalities arising from the Nature of the Employments themselves*4

I.10.4
The five following are the principal circumstances which, so far as I have been able to observe, make up for a small pecuniary gain in some employments, and counter-balance a great one in others: first, the agreeableness or disagreeableness of the employments themselves; secondly, the easiness and cheapness, or the difficulty and expence of learning them; thirdly, the constancy or inconstancy of employment in them; fourthly, the small or great trust which must be reposed in those who exercise them; and fiftly, the probability or improbability of success in them.

Fifthly, The wages of labour in different employments vary according to the probability or improbability of success in them.*17

I.10.25
The probability that any particular person shall ever be qualified for the employment to which he is educated, is very different in different occupations. In the greater part of mechanic trades, success is almost certain; but very uncertain in the liberal professions. Put your son apprentice to a shoemaker, there is little doubt of his learning to make a pair of shoes: But send him to study the law, it is at least twenty to one if ever he makes such proficiency as will enable him to live by the business. In a perfectly fair lottery, those who draw the prizes ought to gain all that is lost by those who draw the blanks. In a profession where twenty fail for one that succeeds, that one ought to gain all that should have been gained by the unsuccessful twenty. The counsellor at law who, perhaps, at near forty years of age, begins to make something by his profession, ought to receive the retribution, not only of his own so tedious and expensive education, but of that of more than twenty others who are never likely to make any thing by it. How extravagant soever the fees of counsellors at law may sometimes appear, their real retribution is never equal to this.*18 Compute in any particular place, what is likely to be annually gained, and what is likely to be annually spent, by all the different workmen in any common trade, such as that of shoemakers or weavers, and you will find that the former sum will generally exceed the latter. But make the same computation with regard to all the counsellors and students of law, in all the different inns of court, and you will find that their annual gains bear but a very small proportion to their annual expence, even though you rate the former as high, and the latter as low, as can well be done. The lottery of the law, therefore, is very far from being a perfectly fair lottery; and that, as well as many other liberal and honourable professions, is,*19 in point of pecuniary gain, evidently under-recompenced.

I.10.30
That the chance of gain is naturally over-valued, we may learn from the universal success of lotteries. The world neither ever saw, nor ever will see, a perfectly fair lottery; or one in which the whole gain compensated the whole loss; because the undertaker could make nothing by it. In the state lotteries the tickets are really not worth the price which is paid by the original subscribers, and yet commonly sell in the market for twenty, thirty, and sometimes forty per cent. advance. The vain hope of gaining some of the great prizes is the sole cause of this demand. The soberest people scarce look upon it as a folly to pay a small sum for the chance of gaining ten or twenty thousand pounds; though they know that even that small sum is perhaps twenty or thirty per cent. more than the chance is worth. In a lottery in which no prize exceeded twenty pounds, though in other respects it approached much nearer to a perfectly fair one than the common state lotteries, there would not be the same demand for tickets. In order to have a better chance for some of the great prizes, some people purchase several tickets, and others, small shares in a still greater number. There is not, however, a more certain proposition in mathematics, than that the more tickets you adventure upon, the more likely you are to be a loser. Adventure upon all the tickets in the lottery, and you lose for certain; and the greater the number of your tickets the nearer you approach to this certainty.

 

[gunfyter]

I didn't put together Adam Smith's words as well as I might have liked.

We are at severe natural disadvantage in negotiating our compensation with employers ....

Employers are like THE HOUSE in Vegas... the odds are in their favor. They do not bear the majority of the COST of producing the talent required to move airplanes through the skies... WE DID!

The lottery is NOT FAIR. We beat the odds to become professional aviators. Our employers benefit from the blood sweat and tears we have endured and the financial and other Risk we took ....

In a fair lottery ... we would be receiving multiple times the rewards we now receive.

Pilot Unions are but a puny device to not even level the field but to tilt the field less against us.

 

[OHGOON]

So sorry gret, good morning and how are you?

Better??? (Never realized that such big and tough conservatives could be so sensitive...)

Now about your credibility...ah never mind, suffice it to say, it's still wanting...

Unions wouldn’t exist unless they were protected by laws and regulations issued by the Federal government.

I think you have it backwards, The process of establishing and running a Union are now codified by Federal Regulation, but they formed and existed just fine before that happened.

Irregardless, Unions do offer checks and balances on management without direct government involvement, a form of self regulation as you will...

 

[gret]

Good afternoon OHGOON!

Hope all is well and you're having a tremendous day.

Sensitivity should never be confused with politeness and good manners.

I have to run out for cocktails and don't have time to address your points. If you have not received any counter points by the time I return, I shall pursue the discussion further.

In the meantime, enjoy your dinner and be safe.

Regards,

gret