Avantair thriving in this economic downturn...

[HazMat]

Until you guys are ready to post the executive comp packages at NetJets then why compare. Please NJW ask your husband he surely knows how much the execs make at NetJets. Steelersrule74 bonus if paid in options are valued at the cash value at year end so if the stock went up then the bonus could be large if it went down it would be zero. The cash value is what is released publicly on forbes and other websites. Paid for performance not a bad idea. We have a profit sharing plan and the company just starting making profits. Watch us we are turning into the example to follow. It has taken time but we are getting there. For a 6 year old aviation company things are looking pretty damn good. Steelersrule you dont work here why do you care are things that bad where you work? Does the union have to be pushed on everyone?

 

[steelersrule74]

Until you guys are ready to post the executive comp packages at NetJets then why compare. Please NJW ask your husband he surely knows how much the execs make at NetJets. Steelersrule74 bonus if paid in options are valued at the cash value at year end so if the stock went up then the bonus could be large if it went down it would be zero. The cash value is what is released publicly on forbes and other websites. Paid for performance not a bad idea. We have a profit sharing plan and the company just starting making profits. Watch us we are turning into the example to follow. It has taken time but we are getting there. For a 6 year old aviation company things are looking pretty damn good. Steelersrule you dont work here why do you care are things that bad where you work? Does the union have to be pushed on everyone?

I'm certainly no expert at reading these things but it appears your latest SEC filing shows an operating loss of 4.5 million through the first nine months. again, i may be reading the wrong column but i'm not sure how long it will be before profit sharing kicks in. To the extent I care about avantair is simply as one pilot to another who hopes your company succeeds and shares that success equitably with it's employees. also, i'm not pushing the union on you or anyone else. I speak to the benefits I see from union membership and respect the choice each pilot group makes.

 

[Jolimon]

his numbers did stick out to me, he must be a heck of a COO. again, i'm not going to trash the company or an individual who's not on FI to defend themselves (as far as we know) - but i think bonuses and stock options given to senior management during a time when the economy is in shambles and the crews at avantair are paid a wage that is not as competitive as other fracs is at a minimum in poor taste and may be a red flag as to how they value their employees.

they may really be that good and take that company to the promised land. on the other hand it may be that a select few enrich themselves from the sweat of others. hard to say how it will work out. i sincerely hope for the crews there it does.

The fact that not only has Avantair not furloughed any pilots but also turned a profit last quarter speaks to the COO's value. My thoughts go out to those that have been furloughed from the other fractionals, I can't imagine how difficult that must be for their families. From what I can see, the people at Avantair that you are questioning have successfully done everything they can to make sure that the employees here do not have to worry about the security of their jobs.

 

[HazMat]

The fact is we have not had to reduce workforce we stand alone in that. Go ahead and continue to spew whatever crap you want

 

[netjetwife]

NJW, haven't we addressed this point already? Yes, we discussed it briefly but I was unaware of the wages at that time. To undercut the competition, you have to do the same thing for a cheaper rate. Or offer a product close enough to draw customers away from your competitors. Comparing your Beechjets and (smaller) Citations to our Piaggios is not an apples to apples comparison. Agreed, but flying the same route is and apparently that's a comparison that your new clients are looking at. Try comparing it on a pound-for-pound basis. You guys just don't have anything that compares to our 12,100lb model of efficiency. Fuel burn? Same story... The situation would be easier if it was that simple, but all overhead costs, including labor, are looked at when services are priced.

Edit to add: And please don't try to stir up the union argument AGAIN. Considering the state of this industry (and the state of the economy as a whole) we're being compensated in a manner that's keeping our company sustainable while keeping us employed. No one is being taken advantage of over here, thank you very much.

Contrary to the opinion of some, I can separate issues. I see this one as a pay issue. Citation Shares--also non-union--pays pilots more commiserate with their contribution to the company. I think that definitely helps to raise the bar in the industry so clearly a Union isn't always required for a fair salary. Barring a major difference (like hiring mins, for example) I don't think that Avantair pilots should be so far behind their peers. You guys have earned a raise by patiently helping to build the business and it is only fair for management to share the wealth, especially when your company is growing. Best wishes to Avantair families, NJW

 

[netjetwife]

Umm, I'm standing right here...I can hear you.
Obviously, I wanted Avantair pilots to answer the question I posed. I guess I could have asked one of you personally, by name. Sorry...:0 it didn't occur to me at that time. We're talking about my pay and you offer that comment? Whatever. I apologize if you were offended; that was not my intention. Pilot salaries are a common topic here at FI and in the past I certainly pointed out how very low the NJA wages were at that time. I also complain about the FLOPS underpaying the Options pilots. I think frac issues affect all our families; consequently, I'd like to see industry standards for work rules and QOL issues, including compensation.

I think Avantair undercuts the other fracs because the Piaggio burns 85 gallons an hour in cruise compared to over 200 gallons in a hawker 800XP. .... Maybe, just maybe the plane is why Avantair is undercuting the compitition and it's not my NJW offending salary.

It seems that you're misreading my general concern for all frac families and my inherent dislike of unfair situations. I'm not offended by your salary, Glass. :erm: I'm empathetic because my husband used to be underpaid for his skills and I trust his judgment (backed up by his research in business aviation salaries) on what a frac pilot should be paid. Now... if I were an Avantair wife ... I'd be offended. That much is true...

I still haven't heard anyone explain if there's some logical reason for the Avantair pilot wages to be lower than the industry norm. Is there some aviation bias against prop planes... Do you guys work less days? Already receive some other form of additional compensation? Speaking of...

A profit-sharing plan sounds promising. I hope that it works out and helps to close the salary gap. Certainly, that could benefit Avantair pilots and their families while simultaneously assuring all involved that lower wages there weren't having a detrimental affect elsewhere in the industry. I think that would be a win-win situation for all our frac families. Good Luck! NJW

 

[BoilerUP]

Those operating economics far, FAR outweigh any differential in crew compensation...

 

[C425Driver]

I still haven't heard anyone explain if there's some logical reason for the Avantair pilot wages to be lower than the industry norm.

Here it goes with the union drive again.

By "industry norm", you are undoubtably referring to the NJA payscale or something close to it. In another post, you cited CitationShares' wages. All of the other fracs have furloughed pilots or have offered some form of early out package under the threat of furloughs - that's the industry norm right now and for some reason you refuse to see that. The only thing you see is numbers on your husband's payscale and if someone else's numbers don't match up then they are somehow being violated.

Some people have come on here and bashed what our COO makes. In my opinion, he earned it. When his predecessor was shown the door, KB had a lot of work to do - or I should say he had a lot of work to undo. The wasteful spending by the previos COO was costing us dearly. KB came in and reviewed all of the contracts that she had signed with vendors and renegotiated or cancelled almost all of them. This is a project that's still going on over a year later and it's a major contributor in taking us out of the red and into the black. He didn't do that on the backs of the pilots or any other employee group - he did it on good business sense.

I don't believe that pilot wages by themselves caused the furloughs/early outs at the other fracs, but they were defintely contributors. If you tell us that we should be paid "industry norm", then you're telling us that we should be putting pilots and other employees out on the street and putting our company back on a trend of losing money every quarter.

We were profitable for one quarter and our financials for the last quarter and fiscal year should be released soon. This may sound like a crazy idea to you, but maybe we should establish a sustained trend of profitablility before we go to management asking for pay raises for ALL employees, not just the pilots because at our company we all make it happen.

 

[BeeDubya]

I don't believe that pilot wages by themselves caused the furloughs/early outs at the other fracs, but they were defintely contributors.

If you look at what has been happening in the jet fractional industry over the last 18-24 months, you will see that all the fractional companies have had to buy back airplanes from owners leaving their programs. As jet prices fall, even if they sell the repurchased share, it's at a loss. The economic burden of the extra inventory (not to mention lost revenues because flying is down at all the fracs) far outweighs salaries.

Just as an example, (and this is just to illustrate differences in inventory and salary -- both are exaggerated) assume a frac has 400 airplanes and each plane is worth $10M on average. That's $4 Billion in aircraft value. Say that frac has 3,300 pilots who make $200,000 each. That's $660 million annually. Or salaries are 16.5% of aircraft value in this scenario, or total pilot salaries are the equivalent of carrying an extra 66 airplanes (16.5% of the fleet). As you start playing with numbers, it becomes obvioius quickly that reduced flying and extra inventory has a signficantly larger impact on the bottom line and number of pilots needed than does pilot salary.

 

[steelersrule74]

The fact is we have not had to reduce workforce we stand alone in that. Go ahead and continue to spew whatever crap you want

if the numbers and public facts i've 'spewed' are crap - then you should be careful, someone may be squatting over you with their pants down. i'm still hoping someone will post the current payscale. as for opinions the only ones I've shared are - i think your pilots are undervalued and i hope your company enjoys long-term success.