AvantAir entire fleet grounded for mx Inspections?

[Capt. JD]

Yeah, I get the sarcasm fvckstick... Like I mentioned a few posts ago... We might still have a little something for ya...

edit to add: And I don't get the whole B19 thing. As I understand it, the person that you suspected as B19 doesn't work here any more...

Wow, has the Avantair layoff hurt the budget on Asian massage visits with happy endings for Sweaty "D"?!

 

[Sparse]

Three flights operating right now. I guess they are back up and running.

 

[AftCG182]

Wow, has the Avantair layoff hurt the budget on Asian massage visits with happy endings for Sweaty "D"?!

Well, visits to the AMP have actually been eliminated from this year's budget plan! :bawling:

Thanks for the rousing "welcome back", gents!

 

[brokeflyer]

And to reaffirm, the guy that was supposed to be B19 isn't here any more...

i can understand why after the crappy job mx has done.

 

[Takeoffroll]

The poster known as B19 hasn't worked at Avantair since about 2006. Y'all have been way off for years. Not sure if the dude is still out there, but damn did he have you all fooled.

 

[Takeoffroll]

And JD, u might want to watch ur back... Cuz tommy ain't watching it for u no more.

 

[imacdog]

The poster known as B19 hasn't worked at Avantair since about 2006. Y'all have been way off for years. Not sure if the dude is still out there, but damn did he have you all fooled.

It's not his current position that's relevant, but the message he brought. The pilots bought into it and were rewarded with a no-notice furlough while planes were being fixed and management continued to be paid. Someone was fooled, that is for sure.

 

[MJPilot]

I can't wait to get back to the best gig I've ever had.

The BEST gig ever??? You've GOT to be kidding!!!

Let 's recap your BEST gig:

1) You dream of flying a Piaggio Avanti P180, being called the Italian Princess for a reason: They are really really touchy, especially during takeoff and landing, non-arguably the most dangerous part of flying. And they do break a lot. Why is that? Well, Piaggio simply was NOT built for fractional operations, period. Perhaps that is the reason why AAIR has never posted positive earnings in its existence.

Apart from that, it is a Part 23 aircraft. What is so wrong with that? Well, for once, it basically only needs to satisfy groundroll takeoff/performance. Good luck taking off in Aspen and losing an engine. I BET that any owner knowing about this fact would bail out of Avantair in a heartbeat. I know you know better as you have flown in a Part 121 operation, where takeoff performance NOT ONLY is based on groundroll, but also on 4 climb-segments that have to be met before a legal takeoff is allowed by FAA safety standards. YOU, my friend, are knowingly flying such an airplane in such conditions which you 're calling "the best gig" yet?...:bomb:


2) If you have not noticed, the P180-II has a circuit breaker already named for antiskid. But to this day, your Italian machine is NOT equipped with such safety features. The result of this? Many skidded, and worse, blown tires, I guess LOTS of fun for you ...:bomb:

"The pilot landed on runway 25, and when he retarded the power levers prior to selecting reverse thrust, the airplane began to swerve, and he corrected with rudder. The right tire then blew out, and directional control was lost. The airplane went off the right side of the runway, and collided with a snowbank. Postaccident examination revealed the left wingtip was crushed, and the composite canard wing was fractured. Examination of the airplane by the operator's mechanic revealed no mechanical malfunction with the airframe, powerplants, or systems. The airport fire department said the airplane went off the 8,000-foot runway at the 5,000-foot mark after leaving a 1,664-foot skid mark."
http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20070129X00102&key=1


3) Your Italian Beauty does have simple hydraulic brakes with NO BACKUP to stop the plane. You still might have some pressure within the system to use limited "toe-brakes". But what if there is a hydraulic leak? Good luck with approching 120+ knots and stopping the plane. Wait, you not only use the ability to break but also your nosewheel steering ... now THAT 's what I call a B$tch!!! :bomb:

"When the pilot touched down around 12:20 p.m., he was unable to stop the plane on a 6,000-foot runway and instead veered it off the runway into the grass where it slowed to a stop."
http://www.northjersey.com/news/Plane_veers_off_runway_at_Teterboro_Airport.html?page=all


4) Not only is there NO antiskid but NO nose wheel steering upon landing. Nose wheel steering is allowed for takeoff up to 60 knots, that is IT!!! I am sure you are enjoying landings on 4000 feet airstrips with some nasty crosswinds, or worse, tailwinds. It is REAL fun landing on a snow covered runway on an uncontrolled airfield not knowing how your braking action is. :bomb:

From a past accident:
"The POH requires that the nose wheel steering be disengaged at or before 60 knots during the takeoff. During the interview with the pilots, they said they were unaware of the prohibition against engaging the nose wheel steering during landing. They noted that because the steering system is used up to 60 knots during takeoff, they assumed that the nose gear steering was to be engaged after touchdown during the landing roll, while slowing through 60 knots.
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident to be:
The flight crew's failure to follow published procedures/directives in the Pilot's Operating Handbook during landing."
http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20080123X00099&key=1

Another one:
"On October 31, 2012, about 0920 central daylight time, a Piaggio P180 Avanti, N401WS, was substantially damaged during a runway excursion while landing on runway 27 at Boyne City Municipal airport (N98) in Boyne City, Michigan.
The pilot stated that after the airplane touched down, it made an uncommanded turn to the left and continued off of the runway. The Airplane struck the airport perimeter fence and came to rest in the same location.
"
http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20121031X31551&key=1

"The first officer attempted to correct with right rudder and then right brake. As the airplane decelerated to 60 knots, the captain engaged nose wheel steering and tried to help the first officer. The left wing then dropped and the airplane veered to the right. The captain thought they had "blown a tire." The left main landing gear collapsed and the airplane slid to a halt. The crew then evacuated the airplane. FAA inspectors and Piaggio representatives inspected the airplane and found the left main tire had blown out and separated from its rim, and fuel was leaking from the airplane onto the runway."
http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20070327X00334&key=1


5) As a result of 2), 3), and 4), a serious accident happened in 2011 where one of your Piaggios was lost in an accident.:bomb:

Fortunately, only minor injuries were reported.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xs_ZpvdB5sY

"According to preliminary air traffic control communications, the flight crew declared an emergency due to a reported problem with the left engine, and the flight diverted to FNT. The airplane landed on runway 18 (7,848 feet by 150 feet) and during landing roll, it veered to the right. The airplane departed the runway surface, flipped over, and came to rest inverted. The four occupants exited the airplane with the assistance of airport rescue personnel."
http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20111116X31506&key=1


6) Must be LOTS of fun when your controls FREEZE during a flight??? I hope they "snap" on you also while trying to unfreeze them.:bomb:

"During the airplane's descent, the yaw damper disengaged while the autopilot remained on. When the flight crew checked the flight controls for freedom of control, the ailerons, elevator, and rudder were found to be frozen in place. The flight crew exerted enough pressure until the controls broke free with a “snap".”
http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20101214X60551&key=1


7) Your marketing guys are trying to sell shares of an aircraft capable of flying at 41000 feet, making any trip from NY to South Florida non-stop, any day, any season. The reality is that strong headwinds southbound make this trip a real challenge. On the other hand, flying into the NY-area, you ALWAYS will be taken out of your high altitude cruising (39000+ feet) down to about 20000 feet or less, right around Washington airspace. Your fuel/burn has now nearly doubled with a huge speed penalty. Now, is this what you call so much fun, trying to complete such flights while debating with your FO whether your flight can safely land with minimum fuel? Why is it that your Piaggio cannot stay up in the high flight levels? I guess your turbo-prop speed is too slow and you are in the way of the BIG guys!!! Good times ... :bomb:


8) I am sure that Avantair has asked you to fly a simple repo leg on top of a 14 hour duty day on many occasions. They will assure you that this practice is legal, as it is flown Part 91. I am sure that this sounds like lots of fun for ya ... :bomb:


9) I am sure that you are NOT carrying a full fuel load on your 4+ hour repo-flights, as most P180 will be in the "out-of-CG" limit on takeoff doing so.:bomb:


At least you know by now that your so beloved Piaggio Avanti is able to fly with HALF its elevator missing. I guess that is where you get your fuzzy feeling from on every take-off.

From an Accident, which Avantair claims to be an incident:
"NTSB Identification: WPR12FA332
Nonscheduled 14 CFR Part 91 Subpart K: Fractional
Accident occurred Saturday, July 28, 2012 in Henderson, NV
Aircraft: PIAGGIO P180, registration: N146SL"
http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20120730X73433&key=1


Again, I hope that you are kidding. If not, enjoy your best gig in your Piaggio!!! I wish you the best.

As far as I am concerned, the time bomb is ticking!!! :bomb:

 

[avantairowner]

Avantair is back I flew yesterday and am so happy to have my Piaggio back. Great job by the crew. Avantair pilots are the best. They were so thankful to be back and spoke so highly of the company. My comparison of Avantair to NetJets and others is Avantair is a micro brew beer and NetJets is Budweiser. The micro Breweries care about every single bottle.

I was at Netjets for a long time and we all know that there were accidents and even a law suit from a pilot who claimed he was forced to fly ill maintained aircraft. I remember receiving a copy. My experience at NetJets was excellent. For me the Piaggio is what differentiates Avantair from the others.

I dont know why Avantair is under attack by Netjets, Flight Options and FlexJet. The emails the sales people sent out about Avantair being gone for good where unture and you should be ashamed. The old NetJets was above this type of conduct.

I also want to add I hired a 3rd party to audit the maintenance records on the airplane I am an owner in. We do this every year for insurance reasons. I got a very good report back. Once again time to leave this company alone.

You should all stick together the strength of the industry benefits everyone associated with it.

 

[Pervis]

I was at Netjets for a long time and we all know that there were accidents and even a law suit from a pilot who claimed he was forced to fly ill maintained aircraft. I remember receiving a copy.

1) Cite one accident.

2) The pilot you mention lost that and other lawsuits.

3) You recieved a copy? Of what? Court cases are in the public domain for all to see for the most part. If you did in fact read the outcomes, you would not use his example to berate Netjets.

4) The odds of you ever flying on the aircraft you own are pretty high, even with a 60 aircraft fleet. The records in 1 of 60 are hardly a reflection of the total, and any insurance company would know that. I call BS on your "ownership" at AvantAir or Netjets.

Very few at Netjets or any other company hold any ill will towards AvantAir or any other competitor. All bravado is simple chest thumping, and mostly in fun. For you to take offense is more indicitive of a young pilot furloughed from Netjets and more recently from AvantAir.

 

[eagle987]

Ok I will bite

http://hudsonvalley.ynn.com/content...ate-plane-makes-emergency-landing-at-stewart/

We can do this all day. We all know they exist for every company.

 

[Pervis]

I stand corrected. I was considering injury/fatality. When indeed there have been none to date (knock on wood), we have had situations resulting in damage to the aircraft. I still wave the BS flag on this "owner".

 

[Capt. JD]

And JD, u might want to watch ur back... Cuz tommy ain't watching it for u no more.

Like I didn't get called into PIE for carpet dances like every other Captain there that had a back-bone... I have said this before, this forum should be about the facts not propaganda that hides the true!

Avantair is back I flew yesterday and am so happy to have my Piaggio back. Great job by the crew. Avantair pilots are the best. They were so thankful to be back and spoke so highly of the company. My comparison of Avantair to NetJets and others is Avantair is a micro brew beer and NetJets is Budweiser. The micro Breweries care about every single bottle.

I was at Netjets for a long time and we all know that there were accidents and even a law suit from a pilot who claimed he was forced to fly ill maintained aircraft. I remember receiving a copy. My experience at NetJets was excellent. For me the Piaggio is what differentiates Avantair from the others.

I dont know why Avantair is under attack by Netjets, Flight Options and FlexJet. The emails the sales people sent out about Avantair being gone for good where unture and you should be ashamed. The old NetJets was above this type of conduct.

I also want to add I hired a 3rd party to audit the maintenance records on the airplane I am an owner in. We do this every year for insurance reasons. I got a very good report back. Once again time to leave this company alone.

You should all stick together the strength of the industry benefits everyone associated with it.

You both sound like Avantair Management Droids!

 

[rajflyboy]

I stand corrected. I was considering injury/fatality. When indeed there have been none to date (knock on wood), we have had situations resulting in damage to the aircraft. I still wave the BS flag on this "owner".

??

Well

Since RTS took over you would be correct

 

[avantairowner]

I am in fact a fractional owner at Avantair. Many pilots know who I am and what name I post under. I am an admitted "Management Droid" just not at Avantair. Thanks to the terrific pilots at Avantair that serve me and my family so well.

 

[CALRepublic]

I am in fact a fractional owner at Avantair. Many pilots know who I am and what name I post under. I am an admitted "Management Droid" just not at Avantair. Thanks to the terrific pilots at Avantair that serve me and my family so well.

Excellent news (Avantair flying again). I'm happy those guys got their jobs back.

Don't understand why you felt the need to take a swing at NJ.. I've been here going on 9 yrs. Netjets has never asked me to fly an "I'll maintained aircraft", nothing even remotely close to that. I'm sorry but that's not accurate at all.

As for "Netjets has had accidents", we've had a few INCIDENTS, but no accidents. For a company that on busy days operates 500+ flights a day, that's not bad at all... Name a company our size that hasn't had incidents

 

[rajflyboy]

??

RTS started a great safety culture

No doubt about it

 

[Capt. JD]

We Got This...

http://amsinc.aero/2012/11/latest-news-on-avantair

 

[BlueNose]

1) Cite one accident.

Really? I think a lot of us get tired of this "NetJets is safer than everybody else" crap. NetJets is a safe carrier, but so are FO, Flex and CA. You guys who do this need to watch the way you talk smack about your fellow pilots. It's a small industry.

I dont like doing this, but since you seem to feel free to talk down the safety of a competitor, and dare anyone to "Cite one" NetJets accident, here goes. The NTSB database lists 12 (Twelve) accidents on what sure look to be NJ (or NJI) aircraft in just over the past 10 years, the most recent of which occurred just last month. The list below is a straight paste from NTSB aviation accident query page (http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/index.aspx). Go there for yourself, look for "accident" under investigation type, narrow it to "Airplane" in category, and type "QS" in the registration field. You'll get the same results. These were all listed as accidents by the NTSB, who is the defining authority on what's an accident or an incident. All were non-fatal, but no frac has ever had a fatal accident (thank the Lord); Leakey, TX was a hull loss due to post impact fire.

Event Date Location Make/Model Regist. # NTSB No. Event Severity
10/19/12 Nantucket, MA CESSNA 560XL N576QS ERA13LA036 Nonfatal
08/23/09 Kremmling, CO CESSNA CE-560 N802QS CEN09LA541 Nonfatal
11/11/08 Los Angeles, CA CESSNA 680 N320QS WPR09LA036 Nonfatal
09/01/08 Telluride, CO CESSNA 560 N839QS DFW08CA221 Nonfatal
04/15/08 White Plains, NY CESSNA 560XL N613QS NYC08LA162 Nonfatal
08/28/06 Smith, NV Hawker 800XP N879QS LAX06FA277A Nonfatal
01/05/06 Woodruff, WI Cessna 560 N391QS CHI06LA058 Nonfatal
09/26/05 Columbus, OH Cessna 560XL N699QS CHI05LA277 Nonfatal
11/29/04 Eagle, CO Gulfstream G-IV N420QS DEN05LA030 Nonfatal
09/11/04 San Francisco, CA BAE 125-1000A N520QS LAX04LA334 Nonfatal
05/02/02 Leakey, TX Cessna 560 N397QS FTW02LA136 Nonfatal
02/08/02 Broomfield, CO Gulfstream G-IV N434QS DEN02LA029 Nonfatal

 

[Pervis]

You guys who do this need to watch the way you talk smack about your fellow pilots. It's a small industry.

I dont like doing this, but since you seem to feel free to talk down the safety of a competitor, and dare anyone to "Cite one" NetJets accident, here goes.

Where have I talked smack about any of our competitors, their pilots, or their safety record? I have been an ardent supporter of competition and defended the AvantAir folks numerous times in this very thread. Yes, Netjets has had numerous incidents. Any company that operates as many aircraft as we do will have that. Hell, SWA just ran another one off a taxiway in Denver. No injuries and certainly no fatalities. That does speak volumes. Our competitors have the same claim. Good for them. One fatality would affect the fractional side across the board.

The issue I have is with this alleged owner. He took a shot at my company and refered to a pilot known to be lots of fries short of a happy meal. We do not fly unairworthy aircraft, and in fact I am on a first name basis with all the folks in LMCC. Never any push back.

Glad to hear AvantAir is flying once again. Welcome back and if we meet on the road, beer is on me. Especially between 1730-1930 at Embassy Suites-ha ha.

PS: I must admit the world is far better informed as to incidents with my company than the average line pilot at Netjets. Funny how that works, isn't it?

 

[brokeflyer]

this exactly what management wants....all of us fighting each other over the safety we provide.

they're laughing at all of us right now.

 

[Cavpilot]

Event Date Location Make/Model Regist. # NTSB No. Event Severity
10/19/12 Nantucket, MA CESSNA 560XL N576QS ERA13LA036 Nonfatal
08/23/09 Kremmling, CO CESSNA CE-560 N802QS CEN09LA541 Nonfatal
11/11/08 Los Angeles, CA CESSNA 680 N320QS WPR09LA036 Nonfatal
09/01/08 Telluride, CO CESSNA 560 N839QS DFW08CA221 Nonfatal
04/15/08 White Plains, NY CESSNA 560XL N613QS NYC08LA162 Nonfatal
08/28/06 Smith, NV Hawker 800XP N879QS LAX06FA277A Nonfatal
01/05/06 Woodruff, WI Cessna 560 N391QS CHI06LA058 Nonfatal
09/26/05 Columbus, OH Cessna 560XL N699QS CHI05LA277 Nonfatal
11/29/04 Eagle, CO Gulfstream G-IV N420QS DEN05LA030 Nonfatal
09/11/04 San Francisco, CA BAE 125-1000A N520QS LAX04LA334 Nonfatal
05/02/02 Leakey, TX Cessna 560 N397QS FTW02LA136 Nonfatal
02/08/02 Broomfield, CO Gulfstream G-IV N434QS DEN02LA029 nonfatal

I hate to get involved in a crank measuring contest, but have you actually read any of these reports? If you did you would see that many of them were no fault of the crew or company (i.e. service vehicle drives into an aircraft, flight attendant not wearing a seat belt, line guy stepping into jet blast)

I know this is flightinfo, so a certain amount of facepalming is expected. But think before making inflammatory posts.

 

[eagle987]

The reality is all fractionals are flying thousands of hours a week and we have an incredible safety record. The finger was pointed at Avantair as if they were the only ones who have had incidents and thats just not the case. I understand the disgruntled pilots who were fired like JD ( who was fired for taking a video with the company ipad while landing) but from other pilots in the industry its just rediculous.

 

[Capt. JD]

The reality is all fractionals are flying thousands of hours a week and we have an incredible safety record. The finger was pointed at Avantair as if they were the only ones who have had incidents and thats just not the case. I understand the disgruntled pilots who were fired like JD ( who was fired for taking a video with the company ipad while landing) but from other pilots in the industry its just rediculous.

Getting asked to leave for my F.O.'s iPad video idea, kind of comical... Getting my five year pin about 2 1/2 months after the fact from Avantair HR, even more laughable! But I am hardly disgruntled about losing a job I would not even have at present! While I had it I dreamed of flying airplanes like the one I am flying now, so hardly the best job I ever had!

I just think Avantair is an extremely unethical operation with very little in the safety culture department. Lets fire the crew that was asked to do a 15 minute turn with an angry Avantair owner in their face cause that will make the MX issues go away!

http://amsinc.aero/2012/11/latest-news-on-avantair/

"One immediate finding from our own examination of the situation was of great concern to us. The missing elevator was discovered near a runway from which the crew had taken off on an earlier leg the same day. This indicated the crew had failed to perform the mandatory and routine walk-around to inspect the plane following that first leg – a direct violation of Avantair policy, which requires that both crew members inspect each plane before each flight. The crew members from the July flight at issue no longer are employed at Avantair. Additionally, our pilots have been re-trained on the importance of this rule and our zero-tolerance policy for failure to comply with it and all other Company policies and procedures."

 

[GooseHZ]

What a joke of a company......i heard ATC make a wise crack to about them today......they are done.

 

[Capt. JD]

We're Back...

What a joke of a company......i heard ATC make a wise crack to about them today......they are done.

I saw N189SL land in Teterboro as I was departing yesterday. No jokes on tower frequency though. Do you have a good Ha-Ha you would like to share?!

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...air-resumes-flying-after-three-week-grounding

St. Petersburg, Fla.-based fractional provider Avantair restarted operations on Friday following a nearly three-week voluntary grounding of its approximately 60 Piaggio Avantis. “We’re back and flying, and are covering all our trips now,” Avantair CEO Steve Santo told AIN

 

[sshrae]

I'm sure frosted tip Santo did not take any pay either while the scumbag furloughed all his pilots without notice for three weeks right? He does have all that stock that was down 20% today though.

 

[ghostrider64]

Ok I will bite

http://hudsonvalley.ynn.com/content...ate-plane-makes-emergency-landing-at-stewart/

We can do this all day. We all know they exist for every company.

Yeah but name one incidence where any other fractional took off with only half an elevator...

This is indicative of a company whose culture hasn't addressed the importance of BOTH crewmembers being required to walk around the aircraft prior to each flight....or even one for that matter....

I don't fault the pilot, I fault the organization. This would also include the airlines who don't require this attention to each and every flight.

 

[ghostrider64]

I hate to get involved in a crank measuring contest, but have you actually read any of these reports? If you did you would see that many of them were no fault of the crew or company (i.e. service vehicle drives into an aircraft, flight attendant not wearing a seat belt, line guy stepping into jet blast)

I know this is flightinfo, so a certain amount of facepalming is expected. But think before making inflammatory posts.

Not too mention a midair with a glider who,was occupying the STAR airspace into RNO, without a transponder on, even though it was equipped. The Netjets captain involved received an award as Pilot of the Year, for her actions after the impact....

 

[eagle987]

ghostrider are you serious? Does this show that maintenance sucks st Netjets.


http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20121023X02243&key=1