Automation / FMS use at your company

[bbwest]

Gents, I humbly request your help. I was hired at a part 91 operation several months ago to "help bring them procedurally into the current century". Old school guys who dont utilize 10% of the technology available in our 2 types of aircraft which both have Honeywell NZ 2000 FMS's.

In attempting to enhance our operation procedurally, I've proposed a few things that I'm fairly certain most solid operations do but would love some verification / input.

To give you a baseline of what I'm working with, when I got to this company they had all of the altitude callouts on the EGPWS turned off because "they didnt like them."

1) Do you routinely extend a centerline from the runway or a fix on an approach when in the terminal area?
2) Does the PF routinely work the FMS or is it primarily the PM's job?
3) If you were going into an airport like SDL at night with no approach would you utilize the FMS to extend a centerline and build a glideslope. Is it acceptable in your company to roll wings level from a 90 degree turn at night at a mile on final.........or even in the day for that matter?
4) Do you utilize challenge and response checklists?
5) Do you run the FMS in dual or intiated transfer if honeywell or have a method of verification prior to "executing" in other fms's?

Sincerest thanks

 

[BoilerUP]

1) Do you routinely extend a centerline from the runway or a fix on an approach when in the terminal area?

When put on a vector for final or cleared for a visual approach.

2) Does the PF routinely work the FMS or is it primarily the PM's job?

PF when the autopilot is engaged, PM when the PF is handflying.

3) If you were going into an airport like SDL at night with no approach would you utilize the FMS to extend a centerline and build a glideslope. Is it acceptable in your company to roll wings level from a 90 degree turn at night at a mile on final.........or even in the day for that matter?

Loading a visual approach to a runway in our FMS gives us a default 3° glideslope, which can be steepened or flattened as necessary. We always like to have an electronic VNAV slope available for situational awareness, even with VGSI present.

As far as rolling wings level from a base turn at night on a one mile final...probably wouldn't do that. During day VMC at an airport I'm familiar with? I don't necessarily see a problem with this although a turn that tight could come into conflict with a 500'AGL stabilized approach requirement.

4) Do you utilize challenge and response checklists?

Yes.

 

[SabreFlyR]

We operate much the same as Boiler does.

We use the EPWS call outs and also turn on the terrain display on the MFD when in the terminal area.

 

[FO4life]

1) Do you routinely extend a centerline from the runway or a fix on an approach when in the terminal area?

during vectors for an approach or visual, "Clean up Box"

2) Does the PF routinely work the FMS or is it primarily the PM's job

PF works Auto pilot unless PM is busy and needs help. PM works FMS

3) If you were going into an airport like SDL at night with no approach would you utilize the FMS to extend a centerline and build a glideslope. Is it acceptable in your company to roll wings level from a 90 degree turn at night at a mile on final.........or even in the day for that matter

YES

4) Do you utilize challenge and response checklists
YES

5) Do you run the FMS in dual or intiated transfer if honeywell or have a method of verification prior to "executing" in other fms's

SYNC ( proline 21 )

 

[ksu_aviator]

Automation is great and I use it routinely...but there must be some leeway to allow pilots to be pilots from time to time.

1) Do you routinely extend a centerline from the runway or a fix on an approach when in the terminal area?

Depends. If there is an operating localizer, I use that first, FMS second.

2) Does the PF routinely work the FMS or is it primarily the PM's job?

PNF as we call it, PM as you call it. It is the PF's job to monitor the aircraft...all other duties go to the other pilot.

3) If you were going into an airport like SDL at night with no approach would you utilize the FMS to extend a centerline and build a glideslope.

If there is time. I wouldn't obsess over it, but I'd definitely use it to my advantage if I can.

Is it acceptable in your company to roll wings level from a 90 degree turn at night at a mile on final.........or even in the day for that matter?

Absolutely.

4) Do you utilize challenge and response checklists?

Depends. After start, taxi, before takeoff and after landing are challenge response. The rest are completed by the PNF and then announced completed.

5) Do you run the FMS in dual or intiated transfer if honeywell or have a method of verification prior to "executing" in other fms's

I have ridden with crew's that confirm every flipping thing they do as if they are in an emergency checklist and it is overly redundant. We are a 2 pilot crew, not a pilot and an errand boy.

 

[2000Easyguy]

I have ridden with crew's that confirm every flipping thing they do as if they are in an emergency checklist and it is overly redundant. We are a 2 pilot crew, not a pilot and an errand boy.

Confirmation is a good thing in my book.

 

[bbwest]

Appreciate the input.

My thoughts on this. In part 91 ops we should be doing just about everything in the cockpit they way part 91 and 121 ops do it.

It amazes me the number of operations (part 91) that dont remotely adhere to advanced CRM principles or pay attention to how the best companies do things.

I have very few original thoughts in aviation. If the 121 and 135 guys do something a certain way yet you do it another.........I'd be highly skeptical.

Some answers to my own questions

1) A centerline should be extended from the runway or a fix on an approach EVERY time in the terminal area. Enhances SA and although most of us have never landed on the wrong runway, its a safeguard.
2) PF should rarely to never enter items in the FMS. PM does this - PF monitors and has a last chance to QA.
3) Most of the FMS's today have the capability to extend a centerline and even build a glideslope. Why would you ever go into any field without an approach- especially at NIGHT and not do this!! Why would you ever not give yourself a minimum 3 mile wings level final at night going into a field with no approach??
4) I have found that plenty of 91 operators do absolutely nothing challenge and response in the way of checklists. Guys miss things. Important things.....like arming TRs, spoilers etc.
5) I agree that everything in one fms should be in the other. But operating in dual ensures that right seat mistakes immediately become left seat mistakes. Intiated transfer provides a method of quality assurance - same as asking the guy in the left if he concurs with an entry before it is "executed" in other fms's.

Food for thought.

 

[ksu_aviator]

Appreciate the input.

My thoughts on this. In part 91 ops we should be doing just about everything in the cockpit they way part 91 and 121 ops do it.

It amazes me the number of operations (part 91) that dont remotely adhere to advanced CRM principles or pay attention to how the best companies do things.

I have very few original thoughts in aviation. If the 121 and 135 guys do something a certain way yet you do it another.........I'd be highly skeptical.

Some answers to my own questions

1) A centerline should be extended from the runway or a fix on an approach EVERY time in the terminal area. Enhances SA and although most of us have never landed on the wrong runway, its a safeguard.
2) PF should rarely to never enter items in the FMS. PM does this - PF monitors and has a last chance to QA.
3) Most of the FMS's today have the capability to extend a centerline and even build a glideslope. Why would you ever go into any field without an approach- especially at NIGHT and not do this!! Why would you ever not give yourself a minimum 3 mile wings level final at night going into a field with no approach??
4) I have found that plenty of 91 operators do absolutely nothing challenge and response in the way of checklists. Guys miss things. Important things.....like arming TRs, spoilers etc.
5) I agree that everything in one fms should be in the other. But operating in dual ensures that right seat mistakes immediately become left seat mistakes. Intiated transfer provides a method of quality assurance - same as asking the guy in the left if he concurs with an entry before it is "executed" in other fms's.

Food for thought.

Just remember that in a stiff wind, rigid trees break and flexible trees bend.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Common sense must apply.

I think I would smack some clown who couldn't read and do an after takeoff checklist by himself and let me now that the checklist is complete.......Dont stop and make me confirm the gear is up, go for it...I trust you...plus I dont have lights or an overspeed warning or red tape etc..so please, carry on.

It also depends on the aircraft and the operator - FSI Savannah loves Initiated Xfer vs Dual. I never had a problem with dual and you would have to be with a real idiot who couldn't handle it. There is NO additional assurance with initiated xfer as everyone says "send it over" without even looking anyhow (yes, you do...)

Also - more modern cockpits are getting away from the constant challenge/response roles anyhow, everything is integrated (EASy etc) - there is still some - taxi checks for configuration, ice use etc..but not many. Its a checklist, not a DO list.

I have seen attempts at cramming 121 procedures into a small Pt91 operation and they have been failures. 3-4 pilots should be able to create their own safe, efficient SOPs tailored to their operation. Excessive overkill checklist usage turns into a bonehead not looking outside and the crew taxiing into another plane or a snowbank, all while assuring some marginally important switch that never gets touched is still untouched. Surprise, same postion and no light on.

Adapt and learn. Nothing is concrete and you have a brain. The important thing is that all people in a department are on the same page.

 

[bbwest]

Agee w the common sense idea but not everything else.

Handling it is not the point. I think most all of us w a type can handle it. The reason you incorporate "best practices" is for the one time out of a thousand you make a mistake.

I know there are a thousand guys out there who turn off the automation, dont extend a centerline in the fms who never have and never will land on a wrong runway.......but then there is one good guy who makes the once in a lifetime/career mistake.

Being all on the same page is not the only important thing. You can all be on the same page and be WRONG.

Not incorporating 121 and 135 cockpit procedures because you dont have to as a parrt 91 operator is mostly excuses for continuing to do things the same way you learned as a 172 cfi and you dont want to change a thing.

Part 91 is the last bastion of cowboy ops. Many cockpits are food fights. Everyone on the fms, no/few actual procedures, one guys does it this way, other guys does it that way.

All survivable, not truly unsafe for the most part. But when you have dedicated, well paid smart people who have come up with procedures and best practices at 121 and 135 operators.........and you as a part 91 guy dont want to do it that way because you "like" your way.

What I "like" to do is irrelavant in the cockpit. What I "used" to do is irrelavant when offered a better more logical more scientific practice.

I would submit that if you fly a Challenger 604 and you are not doing things pretty darn close to the way flexjet does is............if you fly a Citation X and you are not doing it pretty darned close to the way NetJets does it.............. you are wrong.