Automation / FMS use at your company

[Count Dracula]

Professional Leadership has everything to do with whether the Part 91, 125, 135 or 121 operation operates their aircraft in a standardized or non-standardized way. An audit of their flight department can give you enough information whether or not you want to put your family on their aircrat. It has absolutely nothing to do with what part of the regulations they operate under.

 

[NCherches]

I would say a 91 crew with little SOP's but with awesome crew chemistry (especially if they have flown together years) is as good as a good as a well defined, structured crew who has just met for the first time but have learned the same set of procedures.

 

[bbwest]

Well I once thought that the so called "cowboys" did not exist either. Third corporate gig, first two were rock solid operations.

Current one,

- had the EGPWS altitude callouts disabled....because "I dont like them"
- NEVER loaded a runway for arrival during VMC in the fms, let alone extend a centerline
- refused to do challenge and response checklists
- had absolutely no clue how not only to extend off in the fms, but also no clue how to build a glideslope.
- turn off all automation as soon as they can see the field and will also call "field in sight" as soon as they see it - ie 30 miles at times
- FMS is run by the first guy who gets to it
- much much much more

Now if you are someone who thinks ANY of those things are acceptable............

Someone here said it correctly, if you are the guy trying to change things you are the most unpopular guy in the flight department.

It's somewhat incredible to me though when you introduce a best practice procedure, show the science behind it, show why 121 operators do it that way, that NetJets does it that way in the same type equipment.........."I dont care what Net Jets or the airlines do I like it this way"

Like has nothing to do with it. As I said last bastion of cowboy ops.....plenty posting in here. Simply unable to objectively look at things and ask if it's remotely possible if there may be a better, safer way

 

[Gulfstream 200]

........."I dont care what Net Jets or the airlines do I like it this way"

While it sounds like you work with clowns (if not exaggerated somewhat?)....you will get the same EXACT response from me if you start telling me what Netjets or your airline does/did.

Really, people dont care. If you liked it at your airline why did you leave? If Netjets intriques you - go fly a GV there for 85-100K instead of the normal 150-175K. Nobody cares.

FWIW - if I was so concerned I would really inquire about SOPs/Callouts/Standards etc in an interview. You can tell pretty quick if an operation tries to go by the book or if they are cowboys. Screen your employers, I sure would.

This honestly sounds like a personal problem, not a Pt 91 in general problem.

Good Luck.

 

[semperfido]

change takes time and patience

 

[bbwest]

G200 makes me laugh. You are exactly the kind of pilot I am talking about. "People really dont care." ...."Nobody cares"

You are exactly the reason SMS's exist. It's the crowd who thinks none of it really matters and "I can do whatever works for me" that are truly scary in this business.

My bet is G200 has never heard of a best practice, ever been to an NBAA event or a Bombardier Safety Standown or read a Tony Kern book. All a bunch of crap to you who have all the answers.....most of which are simply wrong.

So you think NetJets procedures are screwed up because YOU dont like their checklists?? You must be a joy to share a cockpit with

 

[BoilerUP]

In the immortal words of TO: "Getcha popcorn ready".

 

[Gulfstream 200]

My bet is G200 has never heard of a best practice, ever been to an NBAA event or a Bombardier Safety Standown or read a Tony Kern book. All a bunch of crap to you who have all the answers.....most of which are simply wrong.

So you think NetJets procedures are screwed up because YOU dont like their checklists?? You must be a joy to share a cockpit with

I never said Netjet procedures were screwed up - where did I say that? Don't make $hit up to continue your moronic argument. You think because we wont adopt Netjets procedures we are wrong? LOL. Im sure Netjets spent a lot of time on their SOPs - but what does that have to do with us? Let me guess...you questioned this your first trip huh?

events?? Been to em' all man, multiple times. How does attending an NBAA event have anything to do with this? LOL...wtf are you talking about?

Dont worry about sharing a cockpit...you are the EXACT reason why most decent 91 operations won't consider airline pilots. You just cant adapt or even show the most basic level of common sense. Such mentality is very draining to a corporate department. Outside of very strong internal rec's the airline resumes hit the garbage....Im know it's not everyone, but you simply define it.

This flying thing just isn't as hard or as special as you think.

Good Luck out there.

 

[Partyfoul]

I'd like to see anyone at Netjets flying a GV for those numbers. Even your "normal" numbers are low for quite a few of them...

Back to the show.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I'd like to see anyone at Netjets flying a GV for those numbers. Even your "normal" numbers are low for quite a few of them...

Back to the show.

well good to hear! - whats a new-hire on a Netjet Gulfstream make?

 

[doublepsych]

bbwest, welcome to the world of 91

I have flown 91 for the smallest of operators (1 jet, 2 pilots), and for a 91 operation with several large cabin ultra long range birds, that to a casual observer would appear to be an awesome dept, flying people that everyone here would know. And I have done a good bit of 91 contract flying in large cabin jets with quite a few different operators. Earlier in life I was with NWA.

While there may be some procedurally solid 91 operations as you referenced, after flying as a contract pilot for some time, I can attest that the large majority of 91 operations and pilots have no clue of the benefits of the procedures you are espousing, nor any interest in doing anything more that staying out of trouble, which pretty much means basic standardization.

Does this mean that they are about to drop out of the sky? No. Even at that level, they are roughly analogous (statistically) to a typical US air carrier in roughly 1975, if not more due to the reliability of modern equipment and also because of tech advances such as TCAS EGPWS etc. Still pretty safe. Better statistical safety than boarding an airliner in many parts of the world in 2010. Most are not going to be interested in even hearing about a "best practice". Even though you and many others may understand the benefits. They are more interested in what hotel they are staying in.

In my opinion, what makes 91 really unsafe is guys not watching what they are doing, not so much how standard-ly they do it. Of course industry best practices can enhance this, but it can be accomplished to a minimally lesser degree without some/all of those best practices. Flip-side: if you are not watching what you're doing, best practices are not gonna help much...

If 91 is the world you want to be in, thats how it'll be. While you might get lucky and be hired as CP by some uber-rich dude who is starting his own flight department with 2 brand new G650s where you can emulate whatever operation you like, if standard procedures really mean something to you, you might want to get that Delta app up to date, the A320 I'm flying there now is very standardized!

ps-build an extended centerline for scottsdale rwy 21 and take a look about 6 miles out on that line...it is not a place you would want to be, low altitude, at night. Procedures and technology can bite, too.

 

[bbwest]

G200 I owe you an apology. You are correct you didn't say NJ were screwed up. SPX's post is what I was confusing you with.

I dont want to offend many in the corporate world in which I now reside. I will say however that prior to 9/11, 95% of corporate guys were in the corporate world and not the airlines for a reason. It wasnt the pay or work schedule.

I think doublepsych has it right.

I remain appalled at how many corporate pilots just dont care - G200 right in the heart of that envelope.

I guess that's the human nature part. 121 and 135 guys incorporate best practices and a disciplined cockpit because they have to - get on board and do things the company way or get gone.

I'm simply a believer in the best way. I have few original thoughts in this business. I have no likes or dislikes. If it's a best practice, it's my new favorite way. If its how the Director says it should be done - I love it.

Doublepsych is right, actually G200 is too - most guys just dont care.

I never meant to imply that you are going to fall out of the sky if the PF touches the FMS or you are going to blow up if you dont extend a centerline in the FMS.

G200 says "Net Jets spent a lot of time on their SOPs but what has that got to do with us."? I say everything. And you say nothing. I'll take dedicated professionals and thousands of hours in type everyday over the high school diploma acting as standardization manager who "likes " to do things his way.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Fair enough BB...

Just keep in mind lots of these Part 91 operations you generalize or compare Netjets to may have stricter/more standardized operations than Netjets themselves? (OK, Im done with the Netjet comparison..) Again, what you described above isn't anything like I have seen in Part 91 (maybe Im lucky)

Many also have well organized, conservative, standard industry SOPs tailored to their operation specifically. Many wont operate at night into mountains/Aspen, etc...many wont extend a minute over duty day, many have annual REAL line checks, standard callouts, etc etc...just like any good operation - 91, 135, 121 etc..

Heck, not one Part 91 operation I have worked at (3) would even use contract guys as they were very concerned with standardization (Aon accident?)

And as far as 95% of corporate pilots being in this sector instead of the airlines for a reason??....well, thats just more reinforcement to the airline bonehead mentality. Everyone wants to be an airline pilot huh?....Many of us never wanted to be anywhere else, certainly not at an airline, and consider our careers a success in doing just so.

How about you? - why aren't you where you want to be? I suppose I would be equally as miserable working at an airline as you are in corporate....so why do it?.....I wouldn't.

 

[spxdriver]

G200 I owe you an apology. You are correct you didn't say NJ were screwed up. SPX's post is what I was confusing you with.

Actually, I didn't say that NJ was screwed up either. I simply said that their checklist wasn't well written, in my opinion. I critiqued the fact that "lights" was on virtually every one of their checklists. Afterall, I haven't heard of any accidents being caused by the tail flood lights not being on.

As you're aware, saying a checklist isn't good is far different than saying an operation is screwed up.

I remain appalled at how many corporate pilots just dont care - G200 right in the heart of that envelope.

I object to that. I have the pleasure of knowing G200 personally and he not only has a deft touch with those who he interacts with, but he is extremely diligent and caring.

I guess that's the human nature part. 121 and 135 guys incorporate best practices and a disciplined cockpit because they have to - get on board and do things the company way or get gone.

I have flown for a few 135 operations, and none have incorporated nearly the best practices nor did they have nearly as much of a disciplined cockpit compared to the 91 outfits that I've worked with.

I believe that you're grouping 121/135 and putting them on a pedestal inappropriately. There are plenty of accidents/incidents related to poor CRM and lack of adherence to SOPs in the 121/135 world, just as there have been some in the part 91 world.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I object to that. I have the pleasure of knowing G200 personally and he not only has a deft touch with those who he interacts with, but he is extremely diligent and caring.

Why Thank You SPX.

I'd like to think I am known for being a gentle, caring, and helpful part of corporate aviation.

You have potential yourself, I quite possibly see you winding up in a Gulfstream - maybe even cruising along at FL510....which, as you know...really makes us "G" guys smile!


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