autoland...

[phishA320]

i realize that this is a stupid question, but i know that in FS you can do autoland where you do something with the GPS and then put it on autopilot and approach hold or something and itll land automatically. my question is, do airlines actually use this? i thought i read somewhere (i believe it was the denver post) that frontier was almost certified for autoland or was certified or something...but i was wondering if it does happen, what are the conditions? would it only be used in bad weather? and how often do airlines use autoland as opposed to the pilot doing it himself? thanks, sorry for the dumbness/bringing up flight sim

 

[minitour]

i realize that this is a stupid question, but i know that in FS you can do autoland where you do something with the GPS and then put it on autopilot and approach hold or something and itll land automatically...

Actually you don't even have to have it on GPS...

I love that game...shoot a CATIIIc ILS with zero-zero conditions and autoland it......in a freakin 172...where else can you do that?

Just set up the approach (including Vref, flaps, gear, etc) and when the GS starts coming in, hit the approach button...works for me every time...usually in the 73...but for some reason it works in the 172 and others that you can download (717 - CRJ - ERJ - 152 even).

Okay now that I'm a flightsim nerd...I'll go study a bit...

lata

-mini

 

[User546]

I have a good friend thats a Captain at one of the major airlines flying the A320, and he was telling me a funny story one time.

The weather was bad, so since he was newly Cat 3 certified, he thought it'd be an oppurtune time to try an Autoland approach.

The approach went smoothly, and the aircraft banged on the runway real good, but on centerline. The A320 then slowly decelerated to a slow taxi with the help of the auto-brakes. When they got down to the end of the runway, they went to turn off onto the taxiway, and as the nose began to turn left, it immediately snapped back to the right. Tried it again, and it did the same thing. After a few moments of puzzlement, they realized the aircraft was still on autopilot, and it was fighting them to stay on the centerline.

Embarrassed he reached over in front of the F/O and disengaged the autopilot, and taxied non-evently to the gates, not looking as hot-shot as he was trying to be!

So to make a long story longer... YES, there is such thing as autoland.

 

[minitour]

...
The approach went smoothly, and the aircraft banged on the runway real good, but on centerline. The A320 then slowly decelerated to a slow taxi with the help of the auto-brakes. When they got down to the end of the runway, they went to turn off onto the taxiway, and as the nose began to turn left, it immediately snapped back to the right. Tried it again, and it did the same thing. After a few moments of puzzlement, they realized the aircraft was still on autopilot, and it was fighting them to stay on the centerline....

common rookie mistake...and I've got about 4000 hours of MSFS time to prove it!

 

[GravityHater]

shoot a CATIIIc ILS with zero-zero conditions and autoland

I know you are talking about a sim, but in real life it must take the ultimate in faith to complete these. Just sitting there, monitoring the dials as the planet approaches the airplane and knowing you won't see a thing until the wheels are hitting. Brrr chills up the spine.

 

[minitour]

I know you are talking about a sim, but in real life it must take the ultimate in faith to complete these. Just sitting there, monitoring the dials as the planet approaches the airplane and knowing you won't see a thing until the wheels are hitting. Brrr chills up the spine.

Yeah...from the comfort of my desktop/laptop its a snap...but if I actually had to do one....can you say "pucker factor?"

-mini

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

My buddy is a captain for F9. There Airbus are certified and belive some of the crews are as well. He did an auto on his IOE if im not mistaken. He said its really wierd.

 

[TonyC]

If you think a Cat III Autoland sounds scary, you should consider the thought of a Cat III handflown!


To fly such an approach requires certification of the Aircrew, the Airplane, and the Maintenance program. Naturally, a very reliable system is imperative. Systems must have failure modes that allow the continued safe approach, landing, and rollout.

When are they flown? Obviously, they are flown when the low visibility precludes flying any other type of approaches. It is not uncommon to find approaches that will allow a Cat III down to 300 RVR. Also, in order to comply with the Airplane and Maintenance program aspects of the certification, the airplane must maintain "currency" so to speak. Practice approaches then are flown so that the airplane is routinely checked. An aircraft is not certified to fly a Cat III Autoland unless it has successfully demonstrated such an approach in the past 30 days. (By the way, these "Practice" Cat III Autolands can be accomplished on Cat I certified ILS approaches under certain circumstances. Further comment on that issue should be directed to that other ILS thread. )

I can't speak for other airplanes, but I can attest to the autoland capability of the MD-11. Strong crosswinds notwithstanding, it lands as well or better than any pilot.

 

[atrdriver]

I can't speak for other airplanes, but I can attest to the autoland capability of the MD-11. Strong crosswinds notwithstanding, it lands as well or better than any pilot.

When TWA was certifying the 767-200's for IIIc they said that 97 out of 100 approaches the nosewheel came down within 3 feet of the centerline.

When my dad flew there they did one into I think it was SEA, and after rolling out they sat on the runway for about 45 minutes because they couldn't see enough to taxi to the gate.

 

[ms6073]

More amazing than autoland is the fact that WN flight crews (and a slew of other carriers) are certified to hand fly Cat IIIa approaches with HUD's. Back before 9/11, when it was okay for a JS to ride along in the cockpit, I got a ride home from a long work week with SWA by way of KMSY! It was the first flight of the day during early spring and New Orleans was reporting 0/0 and was only accepting those crews capable of Cat IIIa or better. Most of the other airlines were holding or diverting but we continued on. Having recently left military service, up until that time the only time I had experienced weather conditions that poor had been in a level C/D simulator!

The jumpseat in the 73 has you sitting in front of the cockpit door located in the aisle between the two pilots and during the approach my eyes constantly darted from the instrument panel to the cockpit windows. The sun had not made it much above the horizon and all that could be seen was a dull grey along with a lot of mist on the windscreen. The CA has the HUD and was the flying pilot for the approach while the FO monitored and other than required call outs, they did not have to say much else - despite the sterile cockpit environment, with that level of professionalism, it all seemed rather relaxed for these two! I remember leaning to my left to look over the captains shoulder to see what he was seeing through the HUD - half expecting it to be like military NVG's. It was a typical digital flight ladder with various data pointers and trend indicators to which the Captain diligently attended making subtle control inputs that the FD crosshairs never deviated from the GS/LOC indications.

I can't remember if there was an automated call out or the FO counted down the numbers but I do recall that I half expected the touchdown to be what carrier pilots would refer to as an 'OK 3-wire'! In actuality it was one of the smoothest landings I had ever witnessed. Ironically, just after turning off the active, the visibility decreased to the point that we were not able to taxi no GSR) and had to wait a few minutes for the conditions to improve before continuing to taxi to the gate! I took that opportunity to offer my appreciation of the captains flying skill during the approach and landing to which he modestly replied something to the effect of "I've done better."

 

[Swede]

The strangest autoland I've ever done was in a 777 to Gatwick. The London fog was dense, but it "topped" at only 150' or so, and was CAVU and sunny above. This produced an approach which was surreal. At 1000' AGL, gear and flaps down and landing clearance recieved, the "deck" was still far below us.

The radar altimeter then announced "Five Hundred..." Still, the flat deck was below is. "Three hundred, Two hundred, One hundred..." At that moment we entered the solid weather. Very creepy. Simultaneously, the jet entered its FLARE mode, and moments later touched down. The RVR was less than 1000, IIRC. We then used SMGS to taxi to the gate.

Many 738's with the HUD do Cat3's ONLY hand-flown. During certification for hand-flown cat 3's, the simulator team was required to complete 1000 consecutive landings, each within a tight TDZ. They did this successfully, but it took many hours, of course. Training for HUD landlings in the sim, the Sim IP turned off the visuals, meaning it was totally black outside. It was actually pretty simple to execute a decently soft landing, brake the jet to a halt, and when the visuals were turned back on, there we were straddling the centerline, 6000' down the runway.

Summary - Autolands and Hand-flown Cat 3's down to 300 RVR happen all the time and are a non-event.

 

[FN FAL]

I know you are talking about a sim, but in real life it must take the ultimate in faith to complete these. Just sitting there, monitoring the dials as the planet approaches the airplane and knowing you won't see a thing until the wheels are hitting. Brrr chills up the spine.

I suppose the distraction of actually having the yoke in your hand while doing this would make it seem better?

I think It would send chills up my spine to ride in the back of an airliner that was autoland equiped, with a flight crew that wasn't competant or confident enough to use it. Especially in the event of smoke in cockpit.

The technology and the procedures work...it's not majik.

 

[sayagain?]

May just be urban legend-


USairways/Metrojet had two different models of the 737-200. One was "advanced" and had the auto-land capabilites. Anyway, a crew wrote up that the a/c auto-lands extremely hard. The mechanics came out and wrote in the logbook, "Aircraft has no auto-land capabilities." Wonder if they had to do a carpet dance?

sayagain?

 

[Vik]

Last December, I flew from LAX to NRT on a SIA 747-400. We were in the soup and there was no AirShow, so I had no idea about the altitude, or speed of the aircraft. I was expecting us to break out, then some time later land.

Well, we broke out, and literally 2 seconds later touched down. When we broke out, we were already over the runway and before I could even get surprised, we touched down. Simply amazing!

 

[FN FAL]

The AVRO has autoland capability. I think the HUD systems are the way to go as well. I would think a HUD would allow you to see the runway edge lighting, center lighting, and the taxi way lights. Making it easier for the flight crew to "see" well enough to exit the runway and taxi off to parking. Maybe the field of view is too narrow, but I'd think centerline lead in lights would help.

I'd love to see HUD/FLIR systems progess into the cockpits. I think safety and utility would improve.

The strangest autoland I've ever done was in a 777 to Gatwick. The London fog was dense, but it "topped" at only 150' or so, and was CAVU and sunny above. This produced an approach which was surreal. At 1000' AGL, gear and flaps down and landing clearance recieved, the "deck" was still far below us.

Yes, nothing like getting to DH on a CAT I ILS and looking down at the tops. Meanwhile, you go missed and the next thing you know, the owner is calling you on company wondering why the passengers are complaining about your "inablity" to get into the airport. It's just an un-natural feeling to see yourself get down to the tops like that. On the other hand, we think nothing of flying down through the clouds to a 100 vv and 1/2 mile vis, to shoot an approach. Must be psychological.

 

[ms6073]

USairways/Metrojet had two different models of the 737-200. One was "advanced" and had the auto-land capabilites.

That write up has been circulating the net for a considerable length of time having made the rounds in both civilian and military flying communities. Furthermore, though there may be such an aircraft in existence somewhere in the world, it is highly unlikely that you will find a -200 equiped for autoland capabilities. Considering that the aircraft uses an analog FDR that records fewer than 20 parameters, the aircraft records lacks the ability to integrate the required systems/computers (well, it would certainly be cost prohibitive to say the least) for such a capability!

 

[ms6073]

Summary - Autolands and Hand-flown Cat 3's down to 300 RVR happen all the time and are a non-event.

I would have to agree with you that they are very common these days but for me at least, in early spring of 1997 when I first observed one in an actual aircraft, they were not that common!

 

[sayagain?]

ms6073-


Like I said, probably urban legend. However, I flew for Metrojet for close to three years and YES, we did have auto-land capabilities on some of the 737-200.
sayagain?

 

[ultrarunner]

GhettoJet...I'd forgotten about that outfit.

 

[dav8or]

The Saab had auto land. Coupled approach @ 100 feet set throttles to 20% and vs +50 fpm and it would flair right on and roll out on the centerline, or so I'm told.

 

[91100 100 set]

The Saab had auto land. Coupled approach @ 100 feet set throttles to 20% and vs +50 fpm and it would flair right on and roll out on the centerline, or so I'm told.

I have this friend that would do it all the time...