Aug. issue of Airways has the real story of what happened to TWA and its employee's

[BigMotorToter]

Hello all,

Not trying to start a war, just letting everyone know about the upcoming issue of Airways magazine, a very respectable periodical in the industry, and a very good and accurate article of what happened and why to TWA and the employee's of one of the greatest Airlines in aviation history.

 

[TWA Dude]

I agree, it's very factual. One minor error: it states the no ex-TWA pilots can fly the 777. In fact we can but only outside of the STL fence where our integrated seniority number is controlling.

(Note: the above was not meant to imply in any way that the integration was fair or unfair.)

 

[furloughfodder]

(Note: the above was not meant to imply in any way that the integration was fair or unfair.)

Good point. I guess it depends on what side of the court you are on. If you are an AA person it is the most fair deal possible because it saved over 1500 AA pilots jobs. If you are a TWA person it is unfair because you are on the street.

It all boils down to where you are coming from.

But I would really hate to "imply" if it was fair or unfair.

 

[nitrogen]

Wrong

Incorrect.

The language of this part of the integration is quite clear.

Because the largest aircraft TWA had was a 767, you may not bid a Captain position on the A-300 or the 777 until a certain gate is made that ensures ALL AA pilots have the opportunity to bid that Captain position before you.

For about 99% of the TWA pilots, it means you will never see an aircraft larger than the 767 (as a Captain) regardless of your combined seniority, fences, or anything else for that matter.

That article's statement is generally correct. But only as it relates to 777 and A-300 Captain slots.

I agree, it's very factual. One minor error: it states the no ex-TWA pilots can fly the 777. In fact we can but only outside of the STL fence where our integrated seniority number is controlling.

(Note: the above was not meant to imply in any way that the integration was fair or unfair.)

 

[bayoubandit]

Good point. I guess it depends on what side of the court you are on. If you are an AA person it is the most fair deal possible because it saved over 1500 AA pilots jobs. If you are a TWA person it is unfair because you are on the street.

It all boils down to where you are coming from.

But I would really hate to "imply" if it was fair or unfair.

In all fairness or unfairness--Or if your one of the 386 that got tossed

I think it's fair to assume that non of our "career expectations" are being met now, no matter what side you're on.

Anyone, refresh my memory, did they use the most junior native AA pilot on the list as of April 10,2001 as the plug for the TWA folks to bid Airbus and 777 positions?

 

[Neubyfly]

In all fairness or unfairness--Or if your one of the 386 that got tossed

386 that got tossed???? It's a HELL of a lot higher than that! I think you are confusing the flowback arbitration with the amount furloughed. There are 2400+ furloughed. Most of them TWA.

Again, not commenting of fairness.

 

[bayoubandit]

No confusion at all. I was making light of the native AA 386 pilots that were furloughed in the first rounds on Oct. '01. Being as I am on the bottom of the sen. list, it's hard not to know how many are furloughed.

No further comments on fairness either!

 

[Hoot R. Hunter]

Slightly off-topic but,
How many active TWA pilots were there in Apr 2001 and how many have since retired?

FWIW, I believe the junior native AA on 10 Apr 2001 is indeed the "trigger man" for the -300 and 777 upgrades. Of course, once upon a time, he also had furlough protection. Contract '03 changed that!

Thanks!

 

[Neubyfly]

This article is a must read for anyone in aviation!

 

[NAA Pilot]

What a great article. My heart goes out to the folks from TWA. I have had the pleasure of flying with a few over the past 1 1/2 years and, they are the best! This is a tragedy that needs to be studied for future mergers. How could the TWAers have been so poorly treated?? Shame on AMR and the APA. You have set the bar very low!!!

Best of luck former TWAers!!!! We will miss the "double globe"


NAA pilot

 

[WhiteCloud]

If you are an AA person it is the most fair deal possible because it saved over 1500 AA pilots jobs. If you are a TWA person it is unfair because you are on the street.

Maybe it's just semantics, but I thought the former TWA people were AA people now.

 

[Neubyfly]

Maybe it's just semantics, but I thought the former TWA people were AA people now.

Nope! Almost all of us have been furloughed. Read the article for the "rest of the story".

 

[TWA Dude]

...you may not bid a Captain position on the A-300 or the 777 until a certain gate is made that ensures ALL AA pilots have the opportunity to bid that Captain position before you.

I agree.

For about 99% of the TWA pilots, it means you will never see an aircraft larger than the 767 (as a Captain) regardless of your combined seniority, fences, or anything else for that matter.

I'm not looking for an argument (you know which side I'm on) but disagree with the 99% figure. If I should choose to accept recall I'll retire at AA with a seniority of around 400. I'm not checking for specifics right now (I'll look later) but that should be good enough for 777 Captain somewhere. The article said that no ex-TWA could fly the 777 and that's not accurate. Due to low seniority and age very few will get to be captains but many will have the opportunity to fly as FO, for what it's worth. The article didn't specify captains only. The bottom line is that Supp CC doesn't forbid ex-TWA from the 777/A300, it just makes sure it'll take a long time before it'll happen.

Dude

 

[WhiteCloud]

Nope! Almost all of us have been furloughed. Read the article for the "rest of the story".

Thanks for the reply. I sensed a lot of divisivness in Furloghfodder's post. What I was trying to get a handle on was if ex-TWA pilots viewed themselves as AA and if AA pilots viewed the former TWA pilots as AA. What's the culture?

 

[furloughfodder]

Thanks for the reply. I sensed a lot of divisivness in Furloghfodder's post. What I was trying to get a handle on was if ex-TWA pilots viewed themselves as AA and if AA pilots viewed the former TWA pilots as AA. What's the culture?

This is an easy one.

If you look on the resumes of 99% of the furloughed ex-TWA pilots you will notice that the words "American Airlines" will not appear. You will see, however, TWA LLC. listed as the company that they are fuloughed from.

I would say the majority of the AA pilots view the ex-TWA pilots as nothing more than "furloughfodder" who saved many of their jobs.

There is no "culture" because there are too few TWA pilots still on the property to add any.

 

[JJGMADDOG]

I started pumping the resumes out a few months before furlough. Under employment on my resume I stated American Airlines....I waited and waited and waited....the whole year...NO calls. I figured out the problem....I changed employment to Trans World Airlines LLC.....shortly thereafter the phone rang once, twice, three times. I interviewed with a few companies....funny there was no native american boys at any of them, mostly TWA, USAir, United, etc.

Coincidental....maybe...but I doubt it!!!!

Starting a descent flying job in Sept!!!

 

[castle bravo]

FWIW,
A few TWA people have found a home at Spirit.

 

[yaks]

Anyone care to post a link to the article?

 

[TWA Dude]

What I was trying to get a handle on was if ex-TWA pilots viewed themselves as AA and if AA pilots viewed the former TWA pilots as AA. What's the culture?

First you need to understand that ALL airline mergers are contentious and divisive. The strict seniority system in place in for unionized carriers gets bastardized during integrations because the dominant carrier gets to decide how the lists will be integrated. ALPA to ALPA mergers are supposed to be allowed to go to binding arbitration if things aren't worked out but due to management coersion even that hasn't worked out well recently (OZ-TW, ALG-PDT, CC-MESA). The TWA pilots were forced to give up contractual rights to arbitration under threat of abrogation of our entire contract through bankruptcy court. So even though talks were conducted between TWA and APA the APA had the ability to impose whatever integration they wished (as long as it didn't cost AA too much money) and in the end that's what happened. As the victors the APA got to impose the new seniority list and call fair or magnanimous or whatever they wish. To the victors go the spoils. (The APFA 100% stapled the TWA FA's without even talking to them and then called it a "fair" integration.)

As for the culture, well, the majority of AA pilots had no part in the process and probably don't feel too strongly one way or another. A very vocal minority think that anything was too good for the undeserving, bankrupt ex-TWA guys who obviously flew for TWA since they couldn't get a job at a real airline like AA. Those guys post on the internet a lot so it has the effect of magnifying their numbers. They're angry at AA management for buying TWA and feel the need to lash out where ever they can. TWA has become their scapegoat for AA's financial difficulties and in their minds that translates to the ex-TWA pilots. (While it's true that the purchase cost AA $$ they still would've been close to bankruptcy anyway.) One doesn't need to read these message boards for very long to learn the pilots tend to respond emotionally rather than rationally way too much. At some point in the future recalls will happen and the same emotions will undoubedly resurface. It's just the way these things go.

Dude

 

[BigMotorToter]

The co. I currently work for has (unofficialy) blacklisted any native AA pilot. They had hired quite a few TWA pilots first (since we were the human shield that protected their bottom 1500, and as such were layed off first) and realized that if they hired any natives that it would create quite a moral problem and possibly a safety hazard. They didn't really want to do it but because of the circumstances, they felt that they had too. I guess it could be construed as another example of righteousness overpowering evil.