ATTN: Commutair Pilots!

[Captain X]

Send your cards in to get a vote for/against ALPA being your representational body!

Let your pilots vote on it and decide your own fate.

 

[What'sit2U]

WTF?

Capt X.

Just wondering.. by looking at your types flown I would say that you don't work for Commutair but for COEX instead. Why is it so important to you that we send in our cards?

Also, some of our pilots are feeling pressure from within to send the stupid things in, so I don't think that your approach is worth it.

And finally to you, and all the Commutair guys/gals out there, what do you want from ALPA, or better yet what do you think that it will help us get?




Sincerlery,

A proud Fence sitter

 

[DC9stick]

I can speak from experience, If you don't have a UNION you need one. It may help protect you from things you cannot even imagine could happen in the future. It also is not the answer to all problems and cannot help you get what is not to be had. ALPA is not and cannot be all things to all people, you and your coworkers have to make the decision thats right for you.

 

[IAHERJ]

Lets put it this way. My flight attendant on the 4 day I'm currenly on is a furloughed COEX pilot. Several opted to go to the cabin while out on furlough. They got to keep their date of hire for travel, FA pay etc. He decided not to take the Commutair option given to furloughed Express pilots as his paycut would be 6,000 a year leaving his FA job at Express to fly as f/o on the 1900. I think a big raise is needed at Commutair. I hope we (COEX) can assist in any way possible.

 

[deskjobssuck]

Capt X,

I have to wonder, too. What does it matter to a non-CommutAir pilot what we do with our cards? I am sick and tired of being harrassed every time I come through ALB about the stupid things.

IAHERJ,

We are among the best paid 1900 drivers in the country. Not the best paid, but certainly better than most. I'm super excited that your F/A's with seniority make more than our probationary newhires do. What do your FO's make first year out? Sure, after the second or third year our FO's start falling behing on the pay scale, but that doesn't really matter because by then you've already upgraded anyway.


I'm not trying to be a dork, but I'm getting fed up with these ALPA types blowing smoke up our pilots a$$es. ALPA does have a lot to offer us, no doubt. A little job protection, maybe. A little protrection from the d!cking around that sheduling gives us, maybe. An opportunity to give up 2% of our salary, definitely. More money for less work, no way.

I'm not saying that ALPA is wrong for us. Just don't go into it with unrealistic expectations of what you will get. And definitely don't be intimidated into sending in a card or voting on something you don't believe in.

On a different note, welcome to all of the COEX guy and gals that are joining us. The company is great, the planes are way too fun to fly and I think we've got one of the the best groups of pilots around. I hope you enjoy your stay with us and I look forward to flying with you.

 

[LearLove]

Commutair Guys. While I don't work their I've got several good friends who do and this is just my humble veiw is that ALPA wouldnt do anything but take your 2% and use it for mainline guys to have their BOD meetings on a yatch in Miami.

Another thing sked will still find a way to screw with you even if you have alpa. Just look at ALG and PDT.

 

[IAHERJ]

desksjobs,

In no way did I advocate ALPA in my post. I pointed out that one of our pilots could not afford the paycut and the move, reserve etc. at this time as he is on 3 year FA pay now at COEX. I think that a pilot in any year from 1-5 should make more than any regional FA. That's just my opinion. First year pay should not pay less than 25K if you expect fo's to be able to come to work with a clear mind and bills being paid. My FA is the only current COEX FA (furloughed pilot)who did not opt to go to Commutair. I agree Commutair has a great group of pilots. A quick search of my previous posts will show my support for Commutair guys/gals in jumpseat issues among others. I think you are worth more than you are paid right now but don't necessarily think ALPA is the answer. More like an option. I'm leaving Express next month for another airline anyway but I hope to see the two groups working very close over the next few years as I see more Commutair expansion into CAL's hubs.

 

[captjim]

Leaving, huh.....Whats your hire date? Good luck to ya!

 

[davessn763]

moving on up!!!!!

Yeah baby!!!! Seniority moving at a trickle again. Thank the good Lord somebody is hiring.

 

[Captain X]

Re: WTF?

Capt X.

Just wondering.. by looking at your types flown I would say that you don't work for Commutair but for COEX instead. Why is it so important to you that we send in our cards?

You're correct, I am a CALEX pilot. I am also a person who was once a fence-sitter (actually I still stand pretty close to the fence too).

I can tell you that going from a company that was non-union to a company with representation was the difference between night and day.

Going from and independant union (IACP) to ALPA was the same way.

The amount of resouces that we have available during our ongoing contract negotiations is incredible. Often times, our negotiators go to the table and catch our management team with their pants down. This is all because of the preparation and resources from ALPA----well worth 2% of my pay (which you can deduct anyway).

Why does it matter to me what you guys do?

I could honestly care less, but let's just call it one Professional Airline Pilot looking out for others in our system.

So I just think you guys should get it to a vote and get it over with. That's all the cards that you're being "pressured" to submit are.

They're not saying you align with one belief or the other, they're just saying "let's actually see what everyone believes".

Finally, I don't know if you've been paying attention to the recent events with Mesa and the whole Freedom Air debacle or not, but Freedom was JOs leverage. He used it to make the MESA pilots buy their jobs (CC Air) and job security back. He was able to do this by hijacking their jobs via a non-organized carrier whose pilots were too apathetic and self-serving that they did not care about the profession as a whole.

Pay close attention....you might see some similarities.

 

[I.P. Freley]

"Fair" pay

IAHERJ...

Since you clearly have strong opinions about what first year FO's are SUPPOSED to be paid (with a "clear mind" and all), and you are making the none-too-subtle suggestion that Commutair FO's are underpaid, perhaps you will be so kind as to supply us with the following:

1st year FO pay at CoEx in the ERJ
1st year FO pay at CoEx in the ATR (before they were retired)
1st year FO pay at CoEx in the Brasilia (before they were retired)
1st year FO pay at CoEx in the 1900 (before they were retired)

This assumes, of course, that the pay scales were different, which they may or may not have been back in the days when CoEx operated all this equipment.

For the ERJ, naturally, I would like to hear what the hourly pay rate is NOW. Also, what's the guarantee, how much do you pay for medical and/or dental (if at all, or is it supplied free of charge?), and what are your union dues as a percent of your hourly rate?

Hopefully SOMEONE, even if not IAHERJ, can supply this information.

 

[mckpickle]

Hey everyone, I.P. is back. Its about time as we have all certainly missed our grammer checker.

Dude you still are miserable prick. Im not sure why but you seem to fan the flames where ever you go.

So how about this. SHUT YOUR PIE HOLE. And by the way. How is pay these days at Shuttle America. You guys are still in buisness right? Getting turned down by COEX must have really put a hair across your a$$.

 

[deskjobssuck]

IAHERJ,

Yeah, about that. Sorry for jumping at you earlier. Your response clears up your first post for me quite a bit. I definitely agree with what you have to say.

We all know that we should be making more money. However, I'm not sure that making more money on fewer work days is very realistic when your company hasn't turned a profit in years and you haven't flown up to your guarantee in months. We also need protection from the sort of situation that occurred at CCAIR, but to suggest that a situation like that is imminent is also misleading.

Like I said before, I am not against ALPA. It seems like they can help us out. I just want to hear what they really have to offer, not just the canned, vague responses they've been giving.

This is a huge step for our pilot group. We've always had a great relationship with management and I hate to lose that. I know people are upset because the upward movement has been so stagnant for the last 1 1/2 years, but I'd hate to lose that relationship just because people are frustrated. Make an informed decision.

For all of the COEX crews who have been so friendly towards us, thank you. It's been great to have such a warm reception. I hope we can all continue to work together as we expand into CLE. Your first furloughees started IOE today, and it was awesome to see them walking around with big old sh!t-eating grins on their faces. Guess the 1900 is still good for something after all.

 

[I.P. Freley]

Pickled

Whoa, whoa, whoa... WHO is fanning flames, exactly? You are accusing ME of fanning flames?? What's the matter, you can't help out and answer a simple question? Does this tax your little mind? You are still a scream... And I see several other things have not changed in the last months since you last perpetrated a pathetic stalking maneuver on me:

-You are still fixated on my correcting your spelling and "grammer"(sic.), and then aren't bright enough to proofread your own post, which contains at least three spelling errors and four grammatical errors... Which amounts to about one of each per paragraph, which admittedly is pretty good in your case. I know you aren't smart enough to catch them as you type them, but I still can't figure out why it is you aren't bright enough to look at what you've typed before you post... Unless you simply don't recognize your errors, which is the worst of all possibilites. You are truly a blight on this nation's educational system, and I am sure that your mother is proud of what an erudite young man she managed to raise. I guess it is beyond your comprehension that it's only yourself and one other name-calling child that have had their "grammer" ridiculed by me, as it inevitably follows being called a name by someone who can't maintain an educated discourse on an actual topic.

-You still studiously avoid answering any direct questions, choosing instead to revert to eight-grade taunts and insults when you don't actually have anything to say... Which is ALWAYS. No, to be fair I am not nice to YOU, but then again I am not screaming out for attention and going into threads and calling people names... Nor do I have it out for anyone, as you clearly do for me, for reasons which are painfully transparent.

-When you don't want to supply information that would undermine your position, which apparently is "EJ is the best airline in the world and anyone smaller sucks" and "our people are better paid than yours", you instead come to the curious conclusion that I wish I worked for you. You've done this before and you will undoubtedly do it again, since you are as predictable as the sunrise.

In any case, since I CAN answer questions, I will actually answer yours.

-Yes, we are still in "buisness" (sic.). Strangely, one of the two former EJ pilots that works for us now (instead of pounding the pavement or being a flight attendant, of all things) turned down their EJ recall for March (or is it April?), and decided to stay here instead. Yep, must really suck here.

-Pay these days at Shuttle America is just fine. I actually did some research (you DO know what "research" is, don't you?) while you were composing your brilliant reply to my questions, it would appear, and find that my pay scale is dead-middle between what CoEx paid Brasilia drivers and ATR drivers in their second year. I also found out that our FO's are paid more in their first year (in the Saab) than yours are (in the jet). No matter what IAHERJ has to say about how noone should work for under $25k in their first year, neither SA nor EJ pilots are paid that in their first year... Which answers my original question quite nicely. Thank you SO much, pickle, for your helpful input.

-I admit that I don't know what it feels like to have a "hair across my a$$," but I do hope you will illuminate us... I'm sure that you are quite the expert, as my countering your insane rantings has obviously put a hair across YOUR, ummm, "tailpipe." But your assumptions are wrong, as usual, I am not particularly put off that EJ shot me down way back when, as the unintended consequence is that I don't have to be embarassed by the behavior and paranoid mumblings of he who would have been my coworker, one "mckpickle."

You are dismissed and may feel free to go play in the traffic, which would suit most of this world quite well.

 

[NEDude]

Interesting this debate has spilled over onto this forum.

I support ALPA at Commutair, it is no secret to those who know who I am, my name has been on the letters.

I too value our positive relationship with management and like others worry that ALPA may damage that. Perhaps I am being a bit naieve but I don't beleive ALPA has to damage that relationship.

I don't hold out hope for much higher pay either.

But I do think there are several reasons why CommutAir should be ALPA. Despite our good relationship with management, the fact remains that like all ownership groups, they are in it for their bottom line, not ours. And if something comes accross the table that will benefit them and not us, I don't think they'll turn it down. This is not to villify them at all, it is just the nature of being in business. If CommutAir were ever to be sold, ALPA could be invaluable in protecting our jobs and seniority just as it was to the Business Express pilots when they were bought by Eagle. ALPA has been instrumental in helping pilots land jobs, and interviews at other carriers when they got furloughed. In fact we are seeing that firsthand here at CommutAir with the arrival of the furloughed COEX pilots. That was a plan negotiated by ALPA.

For many of us at CommutAir, the cutbacks of summer 2001 are still very fresh in our minds and knowing that the resources (WIA info, discounted AirInc memberships, etc) of ALPA could be there for us if it were to happen again is a strong reason as to why we should belong.

I also think that as professional pilots, we all should belong to an organization that represents our interests in Washington, DC. Guns in the cockpit, jumpseat access, and dealing with new TSA regulations that we all have to deal with in the post 9/11 world, and ALPA is working hard to make sure pilots are heard. Just as every general aviation pilot should belong to AOPA, every airline pilot should belong to a strong organization that represents us and fights for our interests.

Captain X can back me up on this one, and I think it is an issue that all CommutAir pilots should be aware of. There are some proposals being discussed at CALALPA that could allow for even more growth at CommutAir and a closer relationship with Contiental. These proposals, if enacted, could greatly benefit all of us CommutAir guys in terms of growth potential and income. Among these is the potential relaxation of scope against larger turboprops into Continental hubs.

I hope this sheds some light on how some of us feel and why. The rest of you CommutAir pilots out there, don't accept canned answers which seem to come all too often. Ask the tough questions and make an informed decision based on what you feel is best for you. The above is just one persons opinion.

 

[I.P. Freley]

NEDude

Is your primary concern that ALPA will help protect you if CommutAir were ever to be sold? That is probably the strongest reason yet I have heard as to why CommutAir could/should be with a union.

Call me a pessimist, but I have seen both ALPA and the Teamsters in action at two companies, and I don't really see how they are of a great benefit to the average line pilot... At least not in smaller companies. It seems that they are primarily interested in taking your money in companies with, say, fewer than 500 pilots. Go larger than that and they actually will campaign for your collective interests, but smaller? Well, it's some more money in their coffers. They will make halfhearted efforts on your behalf, but they aren't going to do anything drastic.

More importantly, if you all DO decide to go union, be sure you keep an eye on what your union reps are up to. Ideally you would have people in those positions that really ARE on the side of the whole pilot group, but they do need to be watched as they are only human and may end up agreeing to things that benefit THEMSELVES and persons of high seniority... but detrimental to the bottom end of the list. Just a caveat for you if you do bring ALPA on-site.

This is, as you said, "just one person's opinion." Do with it what you will.

 

[B190Captain]

Good luck on whatever you guys decide!!

 

[IAHERJ]

I.P. Freely,

When did I say that COEX pilots were paid 25K in the first year. I said that no pilot should have to endure anything less in their first year. That includes COEX. I've been a supporter of Commutair guys ever since I got on the ERJ and started flying throughout the Northeast. I never said that COEX is better than any other airline. That's your paranoia at work. We need to fix a lot of things over here at COEX but the thread isn't about COEX or Shuttle America so lose the attitude and address the topic or go compare genitalia somewhere else.

Whatever you guys do over at Commutair, don't do it based on perceived management/pilot relations. We have enjoyed good relations at COEX and going ALPA didn't change a thing. Even during negotiations, we have pretty good relations with our management team both at IAH headquarters and in the various chief pilots offices. Your management will be discussing issues as they come up with the same people the talk to today. Nothing changes in that respect except you will have a lot recources to draw from should you ever need them. CALALPA would also have an easier time creating a dialogue with a Commutair ALPA group. Good luck in all endavours and don't take my FA pay analysis the wrong way. 3rd year FA pay is also ahead of first year FO pay at COEX. It's just wrong any way you look at it.

IAHERJ

 

[Rank&File]

Originally posted by I.P. Freely
Call me a pessimist, but I have seen both ALPA and the Teamsters in action at two companies, and I don't really see how they are of a great benefit to the average line pilot...

Mr. Freely,

I just have to question why you haven't educated yourself on the most obvious benefits of ALPA representation. Here are some hypothetical situations that I would like to know the answer to if you have no union on property:

• Who are you going to turn to when your pay check has discrepancies that are unjustified?
  
• Who's going to help out when your airplane gets a little dinged up for some reason and the company calls you to the carpet?
  
• Who is going to stand in your favor when the company asks why you called in fatigued?
  
• What if your management wants to hire captains off the street because they can pay them less than upgrading FOs, who are you going to call?
  
• Are you going to continue to "ride for free" when you benefit from ALPA supported lobbying efforts that fight legislation that would adversely affect your career, i.e., off-line jump seats, age 60 retirements, duty time/rest requirements, etc.?

I'm not saying that ALPA is the almighty savior for all pilots, but I really can't imagine having to go to work without the support of a union. I guess it's kind of like the internet...you don't know what your missing until you have it.

 

[captjim]

Mr. Freely,

I just have to question why you haven't educated yourself on the most obvious benefits of ALPA representation. Here are some hypothetical situations that I would like to know the answer to if you have no union on property:

• Who are you going to turn to when your pay check has discrepancies that are unjustified?
  
• Who's going to help out when your airplane gets a little dinged up for some reason and the company calls you to the carpet?
  
• Who is going to stand in your favor when the company asks why you called in fatigued?
  
• What if your management wants to hire captains off the street because they can pay them less than upgrading FOs, who are you going to call?
  
• Are you going to continue to "ride for free" when you benefit from ALPA supported lobbying efforts that fight legislation that would adversely affect your career, i.e., off-line jump seats, age 60 retirements, duty time/rest requirements, etc.?

I'm not saying that ALPA is the almighty savior for all pilots, but I really can't imagine having to go to work without the support of a union. I guess it's kind of like the internet...you don't know what your missing until you have it.

Very good reply Rank&File. There are more a lot more benefits to a union than just contract negotiations. A big reason as outlined above is job protection. I think it would be a big mistake to let this opportunity pass you guys by. Good luck guys, it is your choice.