ATTN: Commutair Pilots!

[I.P. Freley]

NEDude

Is your primary concern that ALPA will help protect you if CommutAir were ever to be sold? That is probably the strongest reason yet I have heard as to why CommutAir could/should be with a union.

Call me a pessimist, but I have seen both ALPA and the Teamsters in action at two companies, and I don't really see how they are of a great benefit to the average line pilot... At least not in smaller companies. It seems that they are primarily interested in taking your money in companies with, say, fewer than 500 pilots. Go larger than that and they actually will campaign for your collective interests, but smaller? Well, it's some more money in their coffers. They will make halfhearted efforts on your behalf, but they aren't going to do anything drastic.

More importantly, if you all DO decide to go union, be sure you keep an eye on what your union reps are up to. Ideally you would have people in those positions that really ARE on the side of the whole pilot group, but they do need to be watched as they are only human and may end up agreeing to things that benefit THEMSELVES and persons of high seniority... but detrimental to the bottom end of the list. Just a caveat for you if you do bring ALPA on-site.

This is, as you said, "just one person's opinion." Do with it what you will.

 

[B190Captain]

Good luck on whatever you guys decide!!

 

[IAHERJ]

I.P. Freely,

When did I say that COEX pilots were paid 25K in the first year. I said that no pilot should have to endure anything less in their first year. That includes COEX. I've been a supporter of Commutair guys ever since I got on the ERJ and started flying throughout the Northeast. I never said that COEX is better than any other airline. That's your paranoia at work. We need to fix a lot of things over here at COEX but the thread isn't about COEX or Shuttle America so lose the attitude and address the topic or go compare genitalia somewhere else.

Whatever you guys do over at Commutair, don't do it based on perceived management/pilot relations. We have enjoyed good relations at COEX and going ALPA didn't change a thing. Even during negotiations, we have pretty good relations with our management team both at IAH headquarters and in the various chief pilots offices. Your management will be discussing issues as they come up with the same people the talk to today. Nothing changes in that respect except you will have a lot recources to draw from should you ever need them. CALALPA would also have an easier time creating a dialogue with a Commutair ALPA group. Good luck in all endavours and don't take my FA pay analysis the wrong way. 3rd year FA pay is also ahead of first year FO pay at COEX. It's just wrong any way you look at it.

IAHERJ

 

[Rank&File]

Originally posted by I.P. Freely
Call me a pessimist, but I have seen both ALPA and the Teamsters in action at two companies, and I don't really see how they are of a great benefit to the average line pilot...

Mr. Freely,

I just have to question why you haven't educated yourself on the most obvious benefits of ALPA representation. Here are some hypothetical situations that I would like to know the answer to if you have no union on property:

• Who are you going to turn to when your pay check has discrepancies that are unjustified?
  
• Who's going to help out when your airplane gets a little dinged up for some reason and the company calls you to the carpet?
  
• Who is going to stand in your favor when the company asks why you called in fatigued?
  
• What if your management wants to hire captains off the street because they can pay them less than upgrading FOs, who are you going to call?
  
• Are you going to continue to "ride for free" when you benefit from ALPA supported lobbying efforts that fight legislation that would adversely affect your career, i.e., off-line jump seats, age 60 retirements, duty time/rest requirements, etc.?

I'm not saying that ALPA is the almighty savior for all pilots, but I really can't imagine having to go to work without the support of a union. I guess it's kind of like the internet...you don't know what your missing until you have it.

 

[captjim]

Mr. Freely,

I just have to question why you haven't educated yourself on the most obvious benefits of ALPA representation. Here are some hypothetical situations that I would like to know the answer to if you have no union on property:

• Who are you going to turn to when your pay check has discrepancies that are unjustified?
  
• Who's going to help out when your airplane gets a little dinged up for some reason and the company calls you to the carpet?
  
• Who is going to stand in your favor when the company asks why you called in fatigued?
  
• What if your management wants to hire captains off the street because they can pay them less than upgrading FOs, who are you going to call?
  
• Are you going to continue to "ride for free" when you benefit from ALPA supported lobbying efforts that fight legislation that would adversely affect your career, i.e., off-line jump seats, age 60 retirements, duty time/rest requirements, etc.?

I'm not saying that ALPA is the almighty savior for all pilots, but I really can't imagine having to go to work without the support of a union. I guess it's kind of like the internet...you don't know what your missing until you have it.

Very good reply Rank&File. There are more a lot more benefits to a union than just contract negotiations. A big reason as outlined above is job protection. I think it would be a big mistake to let this opportunity pass you guys by. Good luck guys, it is your choice.

 

[propilot150]

Since you clearly have strong opinions about what first year FO's are SUPPOSED to be paid (with a "clear mind" and all), and you are making the none-too-subtle suggestion that Commutair FO's are underpaid, perhaps you will be so kind as to supply us with the following:

Didnt Conex get rid of the Brasilia and ATR ? I dont see the ATR flyin round here at BTR anymore. and a friend of mine who flew the brasilia as a CA for Conex ( now a 145 FO again ) i heard from him they got rid of the 120 and rest of Tprops. So what good what it would do to tell pay of them if you do not have them ? Cyas!!!
Cap'n Landry

 

[I.P. Freley]

IAHERJ and RANK&FILE

IAHERJ,

Dunno how it is that "genitalia" entered into this, that is not at all an answer to the questions that I posed. I also didn't bring my company into this, that was the work of your deranged coworker, and I merely addressed HIS comments... His stalking, for the record, goes back nearly a year now... when he started in on Commutair and I was defending them (as a former Commutair pilot myself). So... Your suspicions about my paranoia aside, I am trying to get at the root of what YOU were saying, and you can choose to either answer the questions or you can choose to jump on me and use penis references. Your choice. Ultimately this thread is about unions and I am trying to talk about unions and what it is that they can "do" for you, so no need to tell me if I should or shouldn't be here.

What I was trying to understand is why you brought up your $25k issue in the first place. At first I was just trying to find out how much it is that your FO's make in the first year, and I didn't think it was $25k. If your point is that none of us should be subjected to pay below the $25k point in the first year, well, you won't find ME arguing with that. I also won't argue that third-year FA pay at any company should be less than that company's first-year FO pay. However... When you bury those comments in the middle of a paragraph about why your friend is choosing to stay with EJ in the rear of the airplane instead of going over to Commutair in the front, I hope you can see where it appears you are making a judgment on the CA pay scale... And the suggestion by your including that number is that CA FO's should make $25k per year.

In any case, I think it's a huge stretch of the imagination to hope that ALPA will increase pay scales at Commutair. First they need to haul more people, and this new Cleveland operation is the first step down that road. I'm glad to see that Continental is finally allowing Continental Connection to actually CONNECT to Continental.

And one of the reasons I am so suspicious of Unions is illustrated perfectly by the post by "Rank&File", with the "why haven't you chosen to educate yourself" comment... Presented matter of factly is a statement that can only be read as "if you don't think unions are the bee's knees then you are a drooling troglodyte."

Well, Rank&File, the answer to your hypothetical situations is that I came from an ALPA carrier where three of those five things came to pass. Even with ALPA representation, those situations remained unresolved. ALPA also didn't keep people from being furloughed OUT OF SENIORITY ORDER (instead by equipment), which I would think is a pretty big deal for the union to try to stop. Problem is, the union leadership was more interested in saving the top of the company than the bottom, which is antithetical to the entire CONCEPT of a union. I guess it was "all for one and one for all, unless you are in the bottom 40% of the company, in which case you don't matter since you aren't excellent like we are". Thus, my comment that you have to watch your reps, as they will do what they want to do if you don't keep an eye on them.

Furthermore, after I was out on the street in the post-9/11 world, ALPA (my union) totally forgot I existed, except to ask me to update my address information (in september), which I duly did. Then 7 months without a peep passed. Finally, I got a letter explaining how they were campaigning on my behalf to get my job back. However, at that time, I had found another job. Oh how funny it was to finally start getting the ALPA magazine, in MAY of 2002 after being furloughed in September of the prior year! I'm afraid my fellow furloughees were similarly ignored.

I stand by what I said before, as relates to Union representation doesn't fix everything that's wrong. Especially in the smaller companies, they can only do so much... If you want them, then you want them, I am just trying to point out that they aren't the only option. I AM educated on what the union can do for me, and also what it can't.

This man's opinion? Do what you want, but don't expect the moon.

 

[PCL_128]

I.P. Freley

The problems that you listed with your previous ALPA carrier were not the fault of ALPA National. They were the fault of your MEC. If your MEC is not doing what is best for the pilot group, then you need to take them to task for it. I'll remind you that all MEC reps are voted on by the pilot group. If the MEC is not representing you, then vote in people that will. If your MEC chairman is not representing the majority of the pilots, then a recall is in order.

The fact is that most pilot groups at smaller airlines (regionals) are not involved hardly at all with the operations of their union. At our last elections held for Council 128 in DTW, there was a 30% vote turnout. When only a third of the pilots are even bothering to vote on their reps, then the pilot group has no right to complain about the representation they are getting. If you are not satisfied with your union, then volunteer for something yourself! Run for an office on the MEC or your LEC! Most pilots that complain that their union is not doing enough for them have never volunteered for any union committee. I've got news for you: ALPA is almost exclusively managed by volunteers. Without pilots volunteering nothing will get done.

Have you ever volunteered for a committee? Have you ever run for LEC or MEC office? Have you at least voted in all union elections? Many pilots at smaller carriers cannot answer yes to any of these questions! If you have a problem with your union, then do something to fix it. Don't just sit by the sidelines and complain that ALPA isn't doing its job.

 

[CatYaaak]

Are you going to continue to "ride for free" when you benefit from ALPA supported lobbying efforts that fight legislation that would adversely affect your career, i.e., off-line jump seats, age 60 retirements, duty time/rest requirements, etc.?[/list]

Ah, the "guilt trip". Somehow, it always seems to work it's way into the debate.

And how come every non-union job I've had has paid at least 2X the wages of my two union ones, and I'm always more well-rested as well?

ALPA indeed provides useful resources to individual members, but the "brotherhood" aspect is an illusion paraded out when it's convenient. In reality, it's a loose confederacy of company MEC's who especially now are at each other's throats regarding scope, etc, and are try to eat their own young.

 

[I.P. Freley]

PCL,

You said:

"The problems that you listed with your previous ALPA carrier were not the fault of ALPA National. They were the fault of your MEC."

Exactly. That's why I said, in a prior post:

"you have to watch your reps, as they will do what they want to do if you don't keep an eye on them."

Admonishing pilots who aren't involved in the union is, I think, an unproductive tack... Yes, if the union is running amok and doing more ill than good, you vote them out, but by then it's sometimes too late. It should never even GET to the point that you should be so enraged by the actions of your union that you vote your representatives out, as the alleged purpose is collective bargaining.

I assume that your experience with your union at your company has been a good one, or you wouldn't be defending them. You are hopefully cognizant of the possibility that every union at every company is not going to leave everyone in those companies with that warm, fuzzy feeling that you have... And it's probably fair to say that there are people in your company that don't share your feelings, either.

Anyhow, I know from talking to several people at Commutair that their primary concern is that ALPA still hasn't told them WHAT THEY WILL DO FOR THEM. What are they getting for their 2%? Posing a few "what-ifs" probably isn't going to vault people over to your side of the fence, so come up with something concrete and pose an actual plan if you want them on your side.

 

[nimtz]

Re: Pickled

You are dismissed and may feel free to go play in the traffic, which would suit most of this world quite well.

Again I'll say it: GOD BLESS YOU JOHN DRESSER!!!

 

[I.P. Freley]

Nothing quite like blindly standing up for needlessly abusive coworkers to make you really stand out from the crowd. Bravo, Nimtz!

 

[mckpickle]

Re: Re: Pickled

Again I'll say it: GOD BLESS YOU JOHN DRESSER!!!

HAAAA

You da man! Ya, you gotta love John. I owe you a beer buddy!

IP, do you ever notice that most people end up bashing you. Maybe its because you write too d@mn much. I mean really who the heck wants to read the rantings (read: manifesto) of a disgrunteled 12th teer pilot. Man I'd rather take the whole gulfsteam pilot group out to dinner than have a ice cream with yourself. I hope you dont fly as angry as you pretend not to be on here.

Oh and as for the SA pilots that are staying there for the time being. Well thats a no brainer. HUM stay flying at SA WHILE building senority at another company instead of sitting reserve. I aplaud her for working the system. (yes JACKHOLE I know her very well.)

Oh and Needlessy abusive. I think the battered spouses shelter is open if you need some love.

 

[nimtz]

Nothing quite like blindly standing up for needlessly abusive coworkers to make you really stand out from the crowd. Bravo, Nimtz!

I'm sorry but I have to go with the crowd because, I just think you're a moron! I'm done with you now. Play nice!!!!!

 

[I.P. Freley]

"The Crowd?"

If the "crowd" in question is you and pickle, then I am not particularly worried.

Pickle, who is so evenhanded and right-thinking that he has called Commutair "Commode-air". Yep, he need defending. You are to be applauded, nimtz.

And YOU, who said, and I quote,

"This is one xjet guy f*cking assuring you there will be hard feelings if you or anyone else comes to feed CAL on our former routes. We have furloughed pilots working as flight attendants right now waiting for their recall. I gurantee you these guys will give a few nasty looks the first time an uninvited guest shows up in CLE, EWR, or IAH."

Naturally, you meant that in a nice, non-moronic way. Just as I am sure you meant the following in a let's-all-hug sense:

"Man you Commutair guys are a little bit on the sensitive side. I know the night life in PLB sucks, but try to get out more often. You'll feel better I promise."

You did follow up the above with the obligatory "oh those dirty looks won't be from ME" comment, but pardon me as I doubt your sincerity.

I wish the Commutair pilots all the best in dealing with these types of individuals... Who I know aren't the majority, and in fact are likely the minority, but they are there nonetheless... As these two prove.

As for playing nice, try taking your own advice.



P.S.- There's nothing wrong with the BK in CLE, aside from the appallingly slow service when you're in a rush...