Attn: All Airline Pilots

[atlcrashpad]

Stand firm and tell Management to stick their pay cuts. No airline will make customers happy when their crews are not happy. Pinch pennies some where else and quit taking it out on the crews.

 

[atlcrashpad]

Deal or No Deal?

 

[Flyerjosh]

AMEN FROM THIS PEANUT GALLERY!

 

[Superpilot92]

AGREED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[pilotyip]

and where does the captial market, the customer and airline success stand in this big picture. What other solutions does the corporate pilot body have to make this work? repeat of old posty but it fitsThis is a pilot board so saying anything in defense of management is like peeing into the wind, that it is going to come back to you. CEO's are not intentionally running airlines into the ground. They would very much like to succeed. For lack of other reason it would make their resume look great, they would be doing something no other CEO had ever done. Top management includes many besides the CEO, the CEO sets direction as requested by the board. The CEO has little control over the airline, the airline is run by regulation and union contracts. They are at the mercy of the purchasing public, who with Internet access has made the airline ticket a perfectly elastic commodity. There is little they can do inside their structure. Other high paid top management personnel, in Operations, Maintenance. Marketing, Legal, Finance, etc. have unique skills in dealing with large organizations. This makes them marketable when shopping for a job, unlike pilots whose skills are nearly universal. An issue of ATW in the last year had an article about “Airline Management a dying breed”, the article basically said no one wants to do it. The good track record CEO’s are going to other industries. With tremendous, payrolls, overhead burdens, and extremely low margins, there is no tried and true path to success. Most have tried to increase market share, but this has lead to low price and ridiculous breakeven load factors in 95% range. What is management supposed to do? Eliminating management will bring the end quicker for the airplane industry, and their salaries are insignificant to the airlines operating costs. Without management you could not operate the airline, The FAA would shut it down without approved Part 119 key management. Would the pilots step up and become management for free in their spare time. Why is every time, pilot salaries come up, they are immediately compared to top management. I saw an article in ATW in the past couple years that stated at DAL there were 17 members of top management made more than the top DAL Captain. The combined top 17 salaries equaled less than 1/6 of 1% of the combined pilot salaries. If management worked for free all pilots in the company would get a 1/10 of 1% raise. (for a $100K per year pilot that would be $3/wk increase in take home) Boy that raise would really make the pilot group happy. Top management possesses skills that allow them to move from job to job and command high salaries. And every one of these managers wants to see his/her airline prosper. They just can not do it.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Stand firm and tell Management to stick their pay cuts. No airline will make customers happy when their crews are not happy. Pinch pennies some where else and quit taking it out on the crews.

Policy by sound bite?

Yikes!

 

[FN FAL]

Stand firm and tell Management to stick their pay cuts. No airline will make customers happy when their crews are not happy. Pinch pennies some where else and quit taking it out on the crews.

You guys don't have a chance...I just met one our new 350 hour wonder pilots at the drop zone on Saturday.

He was quizzing me about minimums at our feeder and I told he needed 2,500 hours PIC, 100 multi PIC and previous 135 PIC experience to be competitive and he sneered something like, "but it's just a single engine plane!"

Whatever, guppy boy! If you wan't to make 42K a year flying single engine planes 3-4 days a week with no holidays, no weekends and no over night flying, you'll need to have the mins to apply for the job and 5 years of seniority...regardless of how many engines the plane has.

This guy tells me he has 50 hours of king air flight time from this 141 school he went to. I'm sure by the end of summer he'll have the minimum time necessary to get his regional job.

Point relevent to this thread, you got another one coming your way that's willing to pay for king air time and take that first regional job offered...regardless of what the pay is. More fodder for the cannon.

 

[BenderGonzales]

I remember being so jealous of those FedEx Feeder guys at EWN back in the day. (I was flying a POS C402 and sleeping in the plane for a few hours at night).

Nowadays these kids sneer at what is arguably one of the best jobs in aviation! No weekends, no holidays, home every day! Shiny-jet syndrome has blinded them to anything other than a $20,000/yr 70-90 passengers E-jet.

 

[mcjohn]

Pilotyip's post has some good points. However, no one should ever give in without a fight. Management must command A LOT of respect if they expect folks to take it quietly in any industry.

 

[FN FAL]

I remember being so jealous of those FedEx Feeder guys at EWN back in the day. (I was flying a POS C402 and sleeping in the plane for a few hours at night).

Nowadays these kids sneer at what is arguably one of the best jobs in aviation! No weekends, no holidays, home every day! Shiny-jet syndrome has blinded them to anything other than a $20,000/yr 70-90 passengers E-jet.

I like the job. FedEx does a great job with their feeders and for the moment, I can't see doing anything else.

However, it is funny, some of the comments I get from the fresh meat...(non-feeder 200-1000 hour guys).

Not picking on the new guys, but as long as there are hoards of brainwashed cult members feeding the bottom of this pyramid...the guys in the middle will be hosed.

 

[mcjohn]

I'm scared of the regionals. I've heard too many horror stories. I'd prefer to get into cargo ASAP but building time at less than 50 hours a month won't get me there anytime soon. Am I correct in assuming that you must have the 135 IFR mins for cargo? I'm probably already hirable at a regional like Pinnacle or similar and that fact kind of haunts me. It kinda of blows my mind that folks get hired on at regionals carrying passengers with such low time but for good cargo gigs carrying boxes you must meet strict regulatory minimums. Another thing regarding regionals is the seniority system. Makes people want to get in ASAP and they're willing to buy their way and you hear captains praising thier decision to do so on flight info. Makes us fresh meat guys scratch our head. One thing I defintely have figured out is to stay out of that 100k debt trap......especially if you want to be an "Airline Pilot."

 

[RichardRambone]

F the regionals. I for one am not a scumsucking low timer. I'll fly rubber dogshat outta Delhi before I hit a regional. Other things sound more exciting to me anyhow. There are other opportunities out there if we as a whole would just wait it out and get our time up. I can make almost 10K more a year if I wait until my 135 mins instead of jumping to the regional ship. Why wouldn't you? Oh yeah, SJS...

 

[ukaviator]

Agreed Agreed Agreed!

 

[mcjohn]

No SJS here. I'm looking to make a living. At work gotta go...

 

[Geronimo4497]

Don't listen to all the naysayers out there. I have a friend who just left LAB and highly recommends it for low timers with a good attitude. You sure would have some great stories for the grandkids! I sorta wish I had not found such a cush job right off the bat, otherwise I would have done it too.

From another thread:

• L.A.B. FLYING SERVICE, 1873 Shell Simmons Dr., Suite 112, Juneau, AK 99801
• Tel: 907-789-9160
• Fax: 907-790-2165
• PA32/28 VFR 135 pilots needed immediately.
• $1500/month but housing included for free.
• Transportation to/from work provided for free.
• All aircraft EFIS w/GPS/WAAS.
• Great opportunity for low time pilots
• Must provide own transpo to Juneau, AK
• Ground school starts April 20
• Minimums: 700tt, 100x-c, 25 night x-c.
• Misc: must be motivated; must be able to lift 60# and want to fly a lot. Only call if you are serious.

 

[FN FAL]

Misc: must be motivated; must be able to lift 60#

Lift 60 lbs? That's one heavy flight bag...what, do they make you keep Jepps for the whole world in that thing?

 

[Geronimo4497]

They do run the mail..............

 

[Big Duke Six]

Let's see, back to the thread...

Listen up Pilotyp:
I know Mgmt's salaries are miniscule in the grand scheme of things, but for me it is a question of leadership and principle. What if everyone said "my small piece doesn't matter"? Why would I care if I burned a little extra gas, took home a few Cokes, trashed a few parts that could have been saved, made unnecessary copies, didn't re-use paperclips, gave myself and my buddies a little extra bonus here and there. Why should anyone care?

It matters because it's a team effort. It's integrity and leadership that counts. Management, by NOT imposing cuts on themselves that equal or exceed those they are asking others to swallow, produce nothing but hatred and ill-will. I don't care if they can "go somewhere else" with their fantastically portable skills. If they want their airlines to succeed so much, then show it.

Get it now? WTF is wrong with people these days?

 

[Ill Mitch]

I like the job. FedEx does a great job with their feeders and for the moment, I can't see doing anything else.

However, it is funny, some of the comments I get from the fresh meat...(non-feeder 200-1000 hour guys).

Not picking on the new guys, but as long as there are hoards of brainwashed cult members feeding the bottom of this pyramid...the guys in the middle will be hosed.

What is it you always say? I can dig it!

After spending 16 or so years in this biz, for me it is about quality of life. I get that at the feeders. And I make enough to buy the more expensive ramen bowls, as opposed to that crappy Top Ramen.

At a regional, I would not have a good QOL and wouldn't make enough to even buy that crappy Top Ramen unless the store had it on sale.

I still look to see what is out there and one day I will probably leave for something else (in fact I am working on something right now, but don't have high hopes), but right now I am content.

 

[LJDRVR]

Some interesting points, along with a fair amount of self-aggrandizing chest thumping by some of you who think all regional airline pilots are afflicted with SJS. (You're forgiven, I've never made a self serving post. )

The stand up for our rights approach advocated by the original poster will never realistically work for many reasons. Here's one: Even if we all woke up tomorrow with a backbone, none of us would take actions that could ultimately hurt all of our QOL, and potentially put 20% of us on the street.

So, what to do? You have to approach your career with an individual focus. In other words, YOU do the right thing every day. Don't go to work for a scumbag operator. Don't compromise your personal integrity for anybody. Not the person sitting next to you not the customer, and most certainly not the person who employs you.

Here's the critical part of the equation: view yourself as a professional aviator. Your ability to safely and effectively operate an airplane for money should be at the center of your psyche. It's great to have career goals, but don't let your desire to do______ prevent you from doing a job that allows you to put food on the table with stick and rudder. Gather skills and abilities that make you furlough/recession proof. Keep your CFI current if you can. All your experience in the right seat of a 50-seat jet? Get out there and befriend some freight dog outfit. Take a leave of absence if required, but if you don't have the skills to fly by yourself at odd hours through all kinds of cruddy weather, your simply not a well-rounded pilot.

Doesn't matter how big an airplane you fly or who you fly for. (Right now there are some UPS FO's who have no idea what they're going to do to earn money during the contract negotiations furlough.) We pilots have a plan B for what can go wrong in the airplane. Sometimes even plan C and D.) Yet not too many of us approach our careers from a viewpoint of "what-will-I-do-if-I-lose-my-job-tomorrow?"

Developing extra skills and a network of friends in all areas of aviation will not only fundamentally alter your perspective and job security, it will give you the tactical high ground to tell an insane boss to take a hike. Did your spineless peers just vote for pay concessions? So long suckers.

One more piece of advice, get a sugar mama.

 

[mcjohn]

Nice post LRJDRVR.

 

[Big Duke Six]

Originally posted by LJDRVR

The stand up for our rights approach advocated by the original poster will never realistically work for many reasons. Here's one: Even if we all woke up tomorrow with a backbone, none of us would take actions that could ultimately hurt all of our QOL, and potentially put 20% of us on the street.

OK, I'm stumped. What could we do that would put 20% of us on the street? (Does Delta employ 20% of the commercial pilots out there?) And how would this hurt our collective QOL if we did?

I am simply saying if you don't feel Mgmt is taking the licks with you, then they need to be stopped and a message needs to be sent. It's not complicated. But, as we know, (no offense here guys) it didn't happen at UAL and it didn't happen at NWA. It needs to happen. Cuts are inevitable, it's just a matter of whether or not we keep funding Mgmt's future at our expense.

I'm not even a chest thumping union type, I just get totally bent seeing other people taken advantage of. It's all principle.

 

[pilotyip]

Duke six not defending management leadership; except for a few airlines I will agree there is a scarcity leadership in upper management. However my post was show management salaries are a drop in the bucket compared to the total cost of the running an airline.

 

[cynic]

Ummmm, flying a jet is easy and fun and so long as you can turn the autopilot on and you have a pulse you are good to go.

Yes yes yes.... I know.... when the sheet hits the fan a flying monkey won't due but it doesn't happen often and the resulting loss of life is not enough to push up the requirements.

Thats the way it is. Unions are just expensive legal insurance.

You regional pilots are soon to paid in bananas.

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