ATP Written & 121 question

guitarflyer

Throbbing Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2001
Posts
61
Total Time
7k'ish
Could someone affirm for me...I've recently moved and the old non-current FAR/AIM is buried in boxes somewhere.

If one takes the ATP written, obtains work at a 121 carrier before it expires, then written expires (after 2 years), and pilot has stayed at same 121 carrier and not been furloughed but has not upgraded...can this pilot use that atp written to take an atp ride with a designated examiner outside of his 121 company. In other words, say this pilot wants to pay to get his atp at a flight school and not wait for the upgrade ride...can he still use that expired atp written, or does he have to do his check ride as a captain upgrade/type ride with the 121 carrier OR take the written over again?

Wondering aloud...
 

A Squared

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
3,006
Total Time
11000
I don't think you can. If you were upgrading within your company, you could use an expired test result. In fact you don't have to have gained employment before it expires, and your employment doesn't have to have been continuous. You only have to be employed by a 121, 125, or 135 operator at the time of the practical test, and you must have completed thier PIC training program.

I don't think it works this way if you're just getting your ATP on your own though. Read it yourself and see what you think.

I've copied the reg below:

61.39(b) Notwithstanding the provisions of aragraphs (a)(1) and (2) of this section, an applicant for an airline transport pilot ertificate or an additional rating to an airline transport certificate may take the practical test for that certificate or rating with an expired knowledge test report, provided that
the applicant:

(1) Is employed as a flight crewmember by a certificate holder under part 121, 125, or 135 of this chapter at the time of the practical test and has satisfactorily accomplished that operator's approved --

(i) Pilot in command aircraft qualification training program that is appropriate to the certificate and rating sought; and

(ii) Qualification training requirements appropriate to the certificate and rating sought; or

(2) Is employed as a flight crewmember in scheduled U.S. military air transport operations t the time of the practical test, and has accomplished the pilot in command aircraft qualification training program that is appropriate to the certificate and rating sought.
 
Last edited:

Rick1128

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 10, 2002
Posts
919
Total Time
22000+
According to a letter issued by Daniel Beaudette of the FAA Air Transportation Division the 121 employment does not have to be continous. You do have to completed your current operator's training program and be current as far as training is concerned. The way I am reading the letter, I believe you can. PM me and I will send you a copy of the letter. If you do outside training, I would suggest that you take a copy of the letter and copies of your latest company training and discuss it with the examiner. He may wish to discuss it with his Operations Inspector before conducting the checkride.

Good luck
 

A Squared

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
3,006
Total Time
11000
Rick,

I'd be interested to know, does your letter address the situation of a pilot getting an ATP, outside the company, not related to company upgrade?


>>>>I would suggest that you take a copy of the letter and copies of your latest company training and discuss it with the examiner.

As I've already stated, I think the official answer is "no" but Rick makes a good point, sometimes there's some "wiggle room" and if you can get convince an examiner to accept it, well, why not?

regards
 

Rick1128

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 10, 2002
Posts
919
Total Time
22000+
A2,

From the way the letter is written and the phrasology, I would say you can. It does not say that you can not use an outside examiner. Also it does refer to 14CFR61. Again, it would depend on the examiner. If you don't surprise him with it and give him time to discuss it with his insector, you have a good chance of doing it.
 

guitarflyer

Throbbing Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2001
Posts
61
Total Time
7k'ish
thanks guys

Looks like the operational phrase is "completed your company's PIC a/c qualification training program"

Seems like your options are:
get your ATP on your own before the written expires;
or
if your written expires, wait till you go to upgrade
(I mean, why would you go through upgrade classes, sim, etc just to go to an outside examiner? Though I'm sure somebody will have some good reasons)

Hey thanks again for the good info. I love this website.
 

Rick1128

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 10, 2002
Posts
919
Total Time
22000+
The letter does not require 'PIC' or upgrade training. It just requires that your Part 121 training be current. However 61.31 (b) does state PIC training. But, every 121 operator I have worked for, has the same training for PIC and SIC with no indication of position. Except for form 8410. I would still discuss it with the DE of your choice. If he and the local FAA FSDO will sign off on it, Go for it.
 

InstructorPuke

Jester's Dead!!
Joined
Feb 22, 2002
Posts
83
Total Time
3900
ATP written

We had this situation come up at my former flight school. The situation was a Airways furloughee who was a FO on the AirBus. His written was still valid due to being at a 121 carrier. The question arose was the written results still covered under the 121 umbrella due to his furlough. The FSDO office stated that since he was furloughed he still had recall rights which meant he was still technically employed by Airways. Anyways, he had not completed the PIC training and according to the FSDO was not a requirement. Only had to make it through the training program at Airways, PIC or not. He had been on the line flying so that took care of that. He did take it, and it turn, got his ATP outside the airline.
Now, I'm not going to say that every FSDO, or examiner, would interpret the situation the same. I'm sure we can all agree with this, but this is what happened on this occasion.

good luck
IP
 

chperplt

Registered User
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
4,123
Total Time
.
This guy was a mainline US Airways pilot (FO) and didn't have an ATP?? Doesn't sound right to me....
 

InstructorPuke

Jester's Dead!!
Joined
Feb 22, 2002
Posts
83
Total Time
3900
I thought the same thing but saw his logbook and paperwork? Dont know???? They are not typed in the aircraft so I assume that it is possible.
 
Last edited:
Top