ATP qualification question

[rchcfi]

I just had an interesting statement made to me about cross country time and the ATP. Was wondering if someone could help clear this up for me.

I was (and still am) under the impression that the 500 cross country hours required for this certificate have to all be 50NM in length as quoted by FAR61.1 (b)(3)(iv)(B). I am being told by someone that there is a stipulation somewhere that if you are currently 121 or 135, all flights to another destination can count towards your 500....

Is this true? If so, where can I find this in writing?

TIA

 

[LAXSaabdude]

Actually, I don't even think there is an issue of 121/135 time.

Without having a copy of the FARs right in front of me, the best answer I can give you is the following:

"Cross Country" is any flight time from Airport A to Airport B, even if they are only 5 miles apart.

The only certificates and ratings that specify miles for X/C time are the Private, Instrument, and Commercial.

Thus, for the purposes of the ATP you can count any time you are flying between two separate airports.

Hope that helps, but you should look it up. My FARs are at my house, 2000 miles away from the hotel I am staying at right now!

LAXSaabdude.

 

[U-I pilot]

LAX is wrong.....

as seen in 61.1b3, if it goes to a different airport other than point of departure it is x-c time. part 61.1b3ii is one of the exceptions stating:
for the purpose of meeting aeronautical requirements (except for rotocraft category rating) for a private pilot cert. a commercial pilot cert. or inst. rating......that includes a distance of more than 50nm from original point of departure

the one for ATP says the same as that in part iv. 50 nm is correct for experience requirements for ATP.

look at 61.1b3....its right there!

rch...you were in the right spot and under the right impression

 

[cvsfly]

He wasn't wrong at the time he got his ATP - probably before an apparent rewrite in 1997. Got mine in '96. Didn't have to be 50 nm although I never counted xc time that was local in nature.

 

[U-I pilot]

so sorry....but last i checked it was 2004....i dont live in the past.
I didnt even start my private till 97....

 

[cvsfly]

He may be thinking of the 135 PIC xc 500 hr requirement. It does not stipulate 50nm.

 

[cvsfly]

so sorry....but last i checked it was 2004....i dont live in the past.
I didnt even start my private till 97....

Yeah, that arrogance will get you far.

 

[U-I pilot]

in that case he would be correct but at the beginning of his post he stated:

Actually, I don't even think there is an issue of 121/135 time.

 

[LAXSaabdude]

He wasn't wrong at the time he got his ATP - probably before an apparent rewrite in 1997. Got mine in '96. Didn't have to be 50 nm although I never counted xc time that was local in nature.

Yup, got my ATP in 1994. And if that arrogant punk had read my post, I said that my FAR is in my house 2000 miles away.

What is it with these know-it-all interns lately? First TAB, now this guy!

LAXSaabdude.

 

[U-I pilot]

immature reply....

see your PM...

 

[SennaP1]

LAXSaabDude-1
U-I pilot-0

 

[hydroflyer]

For another twist, does the requirement for the ATP cross-country say anything about LANDING at a point more than 50nm away? I've had some people tell me you don't need to land, only fly to a point 50nm away.

 

[rchcfi]

For another twist, does the requirement for the ATP cross-country say anything about LANDING at a point more than 50nm away? I've had some people tell me you don't need to land, only fly to a point 50nm away.

You are correct with that...It is plainly spelled out in the regs. for ATP only.

Here's my problem: I now have every requirement for the ATP except the XC part. Unfortunately (or fortunately if you look at it in the frame that I have a job) my routes only take me on the following segments:

PAHO-PASO - 16NM
PASO-PGM - 6NM
PGM-KEB - 2NM

And even if I do the KEB-PAHO nonstop I only get 23NM. I can only count on the sporatic summer charters to possibly get over 50NM, hence the reason for the original post.

Cheers

 

[tron4000]

Another ATP question

Ok, another ATP question for you 121 guys, I have heard that if you are hired into a 121 position and you have completed the written but not the flight, the FSDO or training dept can issue an extension to the expiration date on the written. The reason for this is that since you are operating 121 and are enrolled in an approved airline training program, the FAA considers this to be a valid reason to infinitely extend your written test results. please help settle the debate amongst my coworkers and i, is this correct ?

Thanks

 

[SkywayFO]

This is correct if you are a 121 pilot your ATP or FE written never expires. The twist to this is you have to get your ATP through the company training program, ie an upgrade. So to make a long story even longer don't go out and get your ATP on your own, let the company pay for it. And as Forest would say " That all I know about that....."

 

[crowbar]

You are correct with that...It is plainly spelled out in the regs. for ATP only.

Here's my problem: I now have every requirement for the ATP except the XC part. Unfortunately (or fortunately if you look at it in the frame that I have a job) my routes only take me on the following segments:

PAHO-PASO - 16NM
PASO-PGM - 6NM
PGM-KEB - 2NM

And even if I do the KEB-PAHO nonstop I only get 23NM. I can only count on the sporatic summer charters to possibly get over 50NM, hence the reason for the original post.

Cheers

Go back through your logbook and see if you can remember any flights you did that were 50 miles from your departure that didn't include any landing other than returning to the point of departure, you might come up with the XC time you need.

 

[A Squared]

Re: Another ATP question

please help settle the debate amongst my coworkers and i, is this correct ?

Thanks

Well, this will probably ruffle some feathers, but I'm gonna say it anyway. Try to focus on the message instead of spinning into a tizzy of righteous indignation

Why would there be a debate about something like this? Debating is for things which are subject to opinion. This is kind of like debating whether 4X5 equals 20 or 25. Instead of "debating" find out the answer. Pull out a calculator, or in the case of the ATP exam question; pull out a copy of the regs. This way, one or both parties learn something, and the "debate" is ended.

The correct answer is that if you are employed by a 121,125, or 135 operator, you may use an expired (there is no "extension" and it does in fact expire) written test result, if you have completed your operator's PIC training course.

 

[deadstick]

A Squared hit the nail on the head with the written "extension." One question about that though, A^2. I think it mentions that if you are employed by a carrier and pass the PIC etc..._at the time it expires_ then you are ok. Well, do you have to be with that carrier (the one you were employed by when it expired) when you take the ATP ride? If you go to another carrier, does it invalidate the written?

Second part: They rewrote the regs on the ATP x/c for the folks in the Grand Canyon who were flying, essentially x/c well over 50 miles away, but returning to the same departure point. So if you fly to a point in space over 50 nm from your departure point the n that time counts.

 

[avbug]

A cross country flight is any flight that lands at a point other than the point of departure. Any flight that lands at a point other than the point of departure may be counted toward the cross country requirements of Part 135.

A cross country flight for the purposes of meeting the experience requirements of a private or commercial pilot certificate is any flight that lands at a point at least 50 nm from the point of departure.

A cross country flight for the purposes of meeting the experience requirements of an ATP certificate does not require a landing at any point other than the point of departure. However, the flight at some point must extend to a distance at least 50 nm from the point of departure.

Your ATP knowlege exam ("written") is valid while you work for your Part 121 employer, and will be valid if you move to another employer.

You are not required to obtain your ATP through your company. You may do so, and you must have been through your employers PIC training program...but you can always go outside the company to obtain the ATP...it needn't be obtained in-house.

 

[Kingairrick]

Why would there be a debate about something like this? Debating is for things which are subject to opinion. This is kind of like debating whether 4X5 equals 20 or 25. Instead of "debating" find out the answer. Pull out a calculator, or in the case of the ATP exam question; pull out a copy of the regs. This way, one or both parties learn something, and the "debate" is ended

The debate is what it's about. I used to sit for 6 hours, 5 days a week in PNS with 5 other freight dawgs. Debating various topics, and eating $hitty Hooters food was all our lives were about then. Looking up the actual answers would have spoiled the fun.

 

[rchcfi]

A cross country flight is any flight that lands at a point other than the point of departure. Any flight that lands at a point other than the point of departure may be counted toward the cross country requirements of Part 135.



A cross country flight for the purposes of meeting the experience requirements of an ATP certificate does not require a landing at any point other than the point of departure. However, the flight at some point must extend to a distance at least 50 nm from the point of departure.

OK, now I am going to ask a very stupid question after putting the two statements together. I think I'm reading gray area here.

The above two statements seem to offer a different interpretation to me. What it sounds like is that you can fly to any other destination OR fly somewhere at least 50NM away and return to origin to be able to qualify for the ATP cross country hours. Basically the way I read it (between the lines of course) is that, by the Feds putting that reg. in there about the 50NM out and back, it just allows more flexibility for flightsee operators. So the origin to destination cross country time would apply AS WELL regardless of distance. Does this make sense?

Thanks

 

[A Squared]

I think it mentions that if you are employed by a carrier and pass the PIC etc..._at the time it expires_ then you are ok. Well, do you have to be with that carrier (the one you were employed by when it expired) when you take the ATP ride? If you go to another carrier, does it invalidate the written?

Deadstick, the reg has been re-written several times in the last 20 years. Previous versions had requirements for your employment being continuous, or for your employment having started within a certain time of having taken the knowledge test. Also the exception only applied to 121 or 135 commuter pilots.

All that has changed. In the current version of the regulation the only restriction is that you are employed by a 121, 125 or 135 operator at the time of the *practical* test, and you have passed the aforementioned training. There are no restritions in length, timing or continuity of employment.


rchcfi,

There are 5 definitions of cross country, which one you use depends on the what you're trying to use the cross country experience for.

1) generic cross country, used for meeting 135 minumuns and perhaps some other applications.

2) Cross country for meeting the requirements of a private commercial or instrument.

3) Cross country for meeting the requirements of a private, commercial or instrument in a helicopter.

4) Cross country for meeting the requirements of the ATP.

5) Cross country for a military pilot meeting the requirements of a Commercial certificate.

All of these definitions are in 61.1(b)(3) If you read that carefully, it should clear up any questions you have.

 

[deadstick]

A^2, thanks, that's good news for me. Another note, I SWEAR I read about the 50 nm point/turn around with the same from/to airports, but I went looking and only found what you wrote. Have you seen what I'm talking about elsewhere?

 

[A Squared]

Another note, I SWEAR I read about the 50 nm point/turn around with the same from/to airports, but I went looking and only found what you wrote. Have you seen what I'm talking about elsewhere?

deadstick,

Go back and read it again little more closely. don't mix requirements from the different definitions of XC. Each one of the definitions in 61.1(b)(3)(i) through(v) stands by itself. For the ATP, the relevant part is 61.1(b)(3)(iv) If you read that you'll see that there is no requirement for a landing. (Other than the one demanded by physics) Oh, and make sure that your FAR is newer than 1997.

 

[MetroSheriff]

so sorry....but last i checked it was 2004....i dont live in the past.
I didnt even start my private till 97....

That may be true but I would guess you were an arrogant ass long before that.

Cheers Intern....

 

[A Squared]

well, without delving into the subject of whether or not U of I is an arrogant punk or whatever, the fact remains he was/is right.

ok, I'll delve a little. Frankly I didn't see his response a being arrogant at all.

He said "LAX is wrong" that's not arrogant, that's just an accurate observation.

His response about living in the past was perhaps a little flippant, but it was an entirely appropriate response to the inane comment that LAX wasn't wrong when he got his ATP ... ummm, what earthly relevance does that have? Anyone who reads my posts knows I have more than a passing interest in what the regulations were, and how they came to be, but at the end of the day, the only thing that counts is what the regulation says today.

I think that what's really happening here is that a couple of you have your tailfeathers ruffled because some low time punk had the temerity to correct somone with much more flight experience than himself. Perhaps it would have been more palatable is U of I had said something like
"begging your pardon, your air-worthiness, but my humble and worthless opinion is that you are incorrect....sir"

So LAX is an old and hoary aviator who got his ATP way back in the last century ...that still doesn't change the fact that he gave a factually incorrect answer to the question. While I can appreciate that it's been a while since the reg was relevant to him, and that he didn't have access to his regs at the time, I would suggest that it would be better to not respond that to respond with an incorrect answer.

You all are pretty insecure if you can't stand having a low timer correctly point out that you are wrong.

 

[MetroSheriff]

A 2,

You make some good points. I think it is a simple case of not what you say but how you say it. It is a good habit to not let the message be lost because of the delivery. That is all.

 

[avbug]

The above two statements seem to offer a different interpretation to me. What it sounds like is that you can fly to any other destination OR fly somewhere at least 50NM away and return to origin to be able to qualify for the ATP cross country hours. Basically the way I read it (between the lines of course) is that, by the Feds putting that reg. in there about the 50NM out and back, it just allows more flexibility for flightsee operators. So the origin to destination cross country time would apply AS WELL regardless of distance. Does this make sense?

No. For the purposes of meeting the cross requirements of the ATP certificate, the flight must extend to a point at least 50 nm from the point of departure. It need not land.

If the flight lands at a point closer than 50 nm, it is a cross country, but may not be counted toward the cross country requirements of the ATP certificate.

The only requirement for cross country experience for the ATP is that the flight reaches a point, at some stage in the flight, of at least 50 nm from the origional point of departure. Period. There is no requirement for a landing. There is no other requirement. However, that requirement must be met.