Atlas going Teamsters

[HeavyjetDC8]

"No where to go for lift"! This after ATSG/ABX started giving aircraft and flying to sister companies working for scab wages! You have not been paying attention. Cappy and ATI have 757/767 operating on their certificates. Hete moves the aircraft and flying to those carriers and ABX goes away. But at least while standing in the unemployment line I could say no concessions!

1224 still gave much of the farm away. It is a fact, not hypothetical conjecture, that DHL when faced with a system meltdown coughed up the severance package in something of a hurry. Had it been simple to transfer assets or logistics and split the savings between ATSG and DHL then that, when their system came under pressure, is what would have happened. But it didn't. We 'pressed-to-test' and received $75M. Too bad we didn't press-to-test a little more frequently.

A falling economic tide realistically does necessitate concessions, but we certainly stopped short of using all available leverage to mitigate their severity.

 

[cfire]

For what it's worth, I got my info from ALPA National. M.M. in legal. The part of the staff AIR one union at ALPA National. Funny how a union's staff personnel has to have a union to represent them against a union. I really don't have a dog in the ABX-Astar fight and have not really followed it due to my time fighting with union busting ex-Lorenzo management at Atlas over the years. We've had our own Atlas-Polar-AACS-GSS crap to deal with. We've resolved three out of that four. I'll let you get back to it.

 

[DC8CRIVER]

Hvy, you can drink the coolaid if you want but any chance of refleeting was never really an option. Spending 100s of millions of dollars to refleet ASTAR for use in a market losing 100s of millions of dollars was never going to happen. ALPA/ ASTAR got sucked in by DHL/John D. to sign a contract, drop a law suit.... and dimantle an airline.

Incorrect statements.

1. DHL purchased 6 new 767ER's and gave them to DHL Air Ltd in England. They have no problem buying new (or newer) airplanes to refleet their airlines. Astar was considered a candidate for this because we had been flying the US-BRU run, the US-EMA, and the US-BAH runs since the mid 1990's.

2. DHL purchased 30+ 757's for European use and have recently parked some of them. Prior to the surrender of the domestic US market, they had been looking at sending them over to the US to replace the older short haul US domestic market airframes.

3. DHL was losing 100's of millions in the US but were making much more than that offshore. They had sustained the US losses as a loss leader to supply a high quality product to the rest of the globe over which they had a virtual monopoly for many years until the Germans took over and drove it into the ground.

4. Astar ALPA pilots did not get "sucked" into signing our contract. John D signed a contract with DHL to supply lift 'till 2019 which they are still honoring. If DHL "dismantles" Astar, the Germans will owe Daz a huge amount of money to buy him out of that contract. Most likely - and for as little sense as it makes - DHL may well just let Daz provide the DC-8's for the next 9 years simply to avoid that penalty.

Driver

 

[nitefr8dog]

Incorrect statements.

1. DHL purchased 6 new 767ER's and gave them to DHL Air Ltd in England. They have no problem buying new (or newer) airplanes to refleet their airlines. Astar was considered a candidate for this because we had been flying the US-BRU run, the US-EMA, and the US-BAH runs since the mid 1990's.

2. DHL purchased 30+ 757's for European use and have recently parked some of them. Prior to the surrender of the domestic US market, they had been looking at sending them over to the US to replace the older short haul US domestic market airframes.

3. DHL was losing 100's of millions in the US but were making much more than that offshore. They had sustained the US losses as a loss leader to supply a high quality product to the rest of the globe over which they had a virtual monopoly for many years until the Germans took over and drove it into the ground.

4. Astar ALPA pilots did not get "sucked" into signing our contract. John D signed a contract with DHL to supply lift 'till 2019 which they are still honoring. If DHL "dismantles" Astar, the Germans will owe Daz a huge amount of money to buy him out of that contract. Most likely - and for as little sense as it makes - DHL may well just let Daz provide the DC-8's for the next 9 years simply to avoid that penalty.

Driver

DC8, unless you were hired as a consultant by DHL on their US operations your 'facts" are just opinions, as are mine. DHL also told ABX that we would be flying the 767-300 as ABX already had the 767 on its certificate. I stand by my statement, as horrible as DHL is at making business decisions I still believe DHL was never going to pour money into re-fleeting ASTAR. But my insight is based on my view from the cockpit window, unlike yours from the Boardroom. When the new ASTAR aircraft arrive I will become a believer!

 

[DC8CRIVER]

DC8, unless you were hired as a consultant by DHL on their US operations your 'facts" are just opinions, as are mine. DHL also told ABX that we would be flying the 767-300 as ABX already had the 767 on its certificate. I stand by my statement, as horrible as DHL is at making business decisions I still believe DHL was never going to pour money into re-fleeting ASTAR. But my insight is based on my view from the cockpit window, unlike yours from the Boardroom. When the new ASTAR aircraft arrive I will become a believer!

Your hindsight is excellent, dog. You are correct that DHL did not dump the money into Astar.

My view is the same as yours - no boardroom window (no cockpit window now, either). However what I said are facts not opinions.

I said that Astar was a "candidate" (not the only candidate, of course) based upon the fact that DHL had just bought 49% of Astar for 120 million and Dasburg (yes, I know - never believe mgt) told us we were candidates - these are facts. ABX was also a candidate - another fact (unfortunately, it turns out neither one of us got the new planes - also a fact.)

"DHL purchased 6 new 767ER's and gave them to DHL Air Ltd in England. They have no problem buying new (or newer) airplanes to refleet their airlines." A fact.

"DHL purchased 30+ 757's for European use and have recently parked some of them. Prior to the surrender of the domestic US market, they had been looking at sending them over to the US to replace the older short haul US domestic market airframes." A fact and a published report that may have been an assumption.

"DHL was losing 100's of millions in the US but were making much more than that offshore. They had sustained the US losses as a loss leader to supply a high quality product to the rest of the globe over which they had a virtual monopoly for many years until the Germans took over and drove it into the ground." Well known historic fact.

"Astar ALPA pilots did not get "sucked" into signing our contract. John D signed a contract with DHL to supply lift 'till 2019 which they are still honoring. If DHL "dismantles" Astar, the Germans will owe Daz a huge amount of money to buy him out of that contract. Most likely - and for as little sense as it makes - DHL may well just let Daz provide the DC-8's for the next 9 years simply to avoid that penalty." Facts with an opinion at the end.

We're all pissed at DHL and their catastrophic blunders. We may disagree on some details, but we were all equally screwed.
Someday, maybe we all - or even just you all at ATSG - will stand together, ignore the unions, and screw them back.

Driver

 

[nitefr8dog]

Your hindsight is excellent, dog. You are correct that DHL did not dump the money into Astar.

My view is the same as yours - no boardroom window (no cockpit window now, either). However what I said are facts not opinions.

I said that Astar was a "candidate" (not the only candidate, of course) based upon the fact that DHL had just bought 49% of Astar for 120 million and Dasburg (yes, I know - never believe mgt) told us we were candidates - these are facts. ABX was also a candidate - another fact (unfortunately, it turns out neither one of us got the new planes - also a fact.)

"DHL purchased 6 new 767ER's and gave them to DHL Air Ltd in England. They have no problem buying new (or newer) airplanes to refleet their airlines." A fact.

"DHL purchased 30+ 757's for European use and have recently parked some of them. Prior to the surrender of the domestic US market, they had been looking at sending them over to the US to replace the older short haul US domestic market airframes." A fact and a published report that may have been an assumption.

"DHL was losing 100's of millions in the US but were making much more than that offshore. They had sustained the US losses as a loss leader to supply a high quality product to the rest of the globe over which they had a virtual monopoly for many years until the Germans took over and drove it into the ground." Well known historic fact.

"Astar ALPA pilots did not get "sucked" into signing our contract. John D signed a contract with DHL to supply lift 'till 2019 which they are still honoring. If DHL "dismantles" Astar, the Germans will owe Daz a huge amount of money to buy him out of that contract. Most likely - and for as little sense as it makes - DHL may well just let Daz provide the DC-8's for the next 9 years simply to avoid that penalty." Facts with an opinion at the end.

We're all pissed at DHL and their catastrophic blunders. We may disagree on some details, but we were all equally screwed.
Someday, maybe we all - or even just you all at ATSG - will stand together, ignore the unions, and screw them back.

Driver

Again when ASTAR starts getting new aircraft your opinions will become fact! At that time I will become a believer. In the mean time maybe you can enlighten me with some "facts" on religion, politics or who has the best baseball team this year?

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

We're all pissed at DHL and their catastrophic blunders. We may disagree on some details, but we were all equally screwed.
Someday, maybe we all - or even just you all at ATSG - will stand together, ignore the unions, and screw them back.

You mean just like you and your buddies "stood together" in support of your hostages at Astar? GMAFB.

You weren't too concerned when DHL was sticking it to them, were you? In fact, you thought it was pretty cool, especially since it moved you up a couple numbers. Well, what's done is done, and it's a little late for you and the rest of your skeezix buddies to be jumping on the hero's bandwagon. That ship has sailed, and you weren't on it.

DHL may have made some "catastrophic blunders" but getting rid of Astar wasn't one of them. It was overpriced and underperforming, and whoever made the decision to pull the plug on it will probably get a bonus for having done so. All they needed was a change in a couple lines of the contract, and you gave that to them.

Welcome to the jungle.

 

[hvydriver]

You mean just like you and your buddies "stood together" in support of your hostages at Astar? GMAFB.

You weren't too concerned when DHL was sticking it to them, were you? In fact, you thought it was pretty cool, especially since it moved you up a couple numbers. Well, what's done is done, and it's a little late for you and the rest of your skeezix buddies to be jumping on the hero's bandwagon. That ship has sailed, and you weren't on it.

DHL may have made some "catastrophic blunders" but getting rid of Astar wasn't one of them. It was overpriced and underperforming, and whoever made the decision to pull the plug on it will probably get a bonus for having done so. All they needed was a change in a couple lines of the contract, and you gave that to them.

Welcome to the jungle.

We rescued you once buddy boy. That was quite enough. You have no one to blame but yourself.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

We rescued you once buddy boy. That was quite enough. You have no one to blame but yourself.

Funny, I don't recall seeing that in any of the bylaws. Is that an ALPA thing, or something you dreamed up on the fly? Because if it's the former, I'd like to know where it says that. If it's the latter, all I can say is that you have some very..."peculiar"...ideas about the way unions work, what their responsibilities are, and what they need to do to remain effective.

Whenever a union get's the notion that defending ANY member against an unjust termination it is somehow doing them a "favor," that union has pretty much lost it's credibility as a union.

I'm fairly certain Astar's union-buster took that into consideration when he was discussing with management whether it was safe to take the 5-year furlough protection off the table and try for 2 instead.

 

[rotor&wing]

You mean just like you and your buddies "stood together" in support of your hostages at Astar? GMAFB.

You weren't too concerned when DHL was sticking it to them, were you? In fact, you thought it was pretty cool, especially since it moved you up a couple numbers. Well, what's done is done, and it's a little late for you and the rest of your skeezix buddies to be jumping on the hero's bandwagon. That ship has sailed, and you weren't on it.

DHL may have made some "catastrophic blunders" but getting rid of Astar wasn't one of them. It was overpriced and underperforming, and whoever made the decision to pull the plug on it will probably get a bonus for having done so. All they needed was a change in a couple lines of the contract, and you gave that to them.

Welcome to the jungle.

One of the best moves Astar ever did was ridding themselves of one of their worst pilots, Jim M. aka "Whistlin Dan".

But 'ol "Whistle Britches" helped them do it by getting his ATP revoked by demonstrating pathetic pilot performance with a Fed on the jumpseat. And now poor poor Jim wants to blame everyone but himself.