Athlete's and Pilots

[HarryShadow]

I had this conversation recently in my squadron and am curious what others think about athlete's being "better" pilots than non-athletes???

 

[Spooky 2]

Pure popycock. What could you be thinking? Now on the other hand if you are flying F18's, F16's (notice I did not mention the mighty C130), or something similar, Yea physical conditioning is certainly a part of the equation. But simple stick and rudder is not a physical trait, it's a learned skill. What type of athlete might you be thinking about when you consider this trait?
Nothing I have said here is meant to demean physical conditioning, something we should all aspire to. Now where did I put those munchies?

 

[HarryShadow]

Pure popycock. What could you be thinking? Now on the other hand if you are flying F18's, F16's (notice I did not mention the mighty C130), or something similar, Yea physical conditioning is certainly a part of the equation. But simple stick and rudder is not a physical trait, it's a learned skill. What type of athlete might you be thinking about when you consider this trait?
Nothing I have said here is meant to demean physical conditioning, something we should all aspire to. Now where did I put those munchies?

Our conversation focused on individual aptitude, the ability to learn and digest information, constant progression, and overall “dudesmanship.” We didn’t discuss physical conditioning (though there are obvious benefits to being fit in the cockpit, regardless of what you fly). As far as what type of athlete we were thinking about…just athletes in general.

 

[McGillicutty]

FWIW most of the guard interviews I went to, the board ended up picking a competitive high school/college athlete.

Personally, I like flying with crews having athletic experience because it gives me something to talk about.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Traits that make good athletes equate well to traits that make a good pilots. Not saying sissy boy non-athletes like Spooky 2 can't be good pilots, even though they say things like "poppy cock" and get their hand-eye coordination from playing scrabble.

 

[scarface]

At one time, many years ago, it was highly thought of. (Yes, I know I'm ending a sentence in a preposition.) The original Army Air Corps pilots in WWI were just about all athletes or race car drivers. Or at least that's what I've read.

 

[Spooky 2]

Traits that make good athletes equate well to traits that make a good pilots. Not saying sissy boy non-athletes like Spooky 2 can't be good pilots, even though they say things like "poppy cock" and get their hand-eye coordination from playing scrabble.

dang you outed me. You are funny! Now can someone tell me about "dudesmanship" is that anything like being a swordsman?

 

[Deuce130]

I had this conversation recently in my squadron and am curious what others think about athlete's being "better" pilots than non-athletes???

Depends on what you mean by Athlete. Most guys who spout the athletes are better rhetoric were intercollegiates at the Air Force Academy. If that were the case, however, they'd go to UPT in greater numbers than the cadet wing at large - which doesn't happen. And, most of the time, their particular definition of Athlete is only extended to others who played intercollegiately. Most of the cadets at the zoo (myself included, I think) can be considered athletes. I tried to walk on my freshman year and most of the cadet wing played some kind of sport in high school and continued to stay in shape. I'd call those guys athletes, too. Sure, stay in shape and have some kind of natural athletic ability and you may be a better pilot. Hone your early leadership development as a team leader, team captain, or just plain "pin your ears back and go" type of person, and that may translate into leadership in the air. "Dudesmanship" is often perfected in practices, locker rooms, and long bus rides in high school. Things the non-athlete may not experience during math club meetings or after school chess competitions. All that aside, I've met too many non-athletes who make the grade as a pilot to agree with such a broad generalization. Soooo.... who was the "Athlete" at the 9th SOS (or 550th??) who won't let go of the glory days??

 

[KarmaPolice]

dang you outed me. You are funny! Now can someone tell me about "dudesmanship" is that anything like being a swordsman?

Dudesmanship is a higly technical, much misunderstood term. To sum it up, it has a lot to do with having a "baby's arm". And if your not familiar with that term, you'll need to google it. So it does relate to being a swordsman, of sorts.

Good thing you don't take offense to my kidding. I just have issues, as my mom beat me at scrabble as a child, over and over again.

 

[HarryShadow]

Now can someone tell me about "dudesmanship" is that anything like being a swordsman?

It's a sad, sad day for the man's book of terminology!!!

 

[Pistlpetet]

A bunch of horse ********************e!

Being a good pilot is all about what is between your two ears.

Plus if that was the case the AF would be a lot more PT orientated.

There is a lot more to being a good "dude" then playing sports. Forget the Sword, I rather have a guy with a HUGE sack I can rely on, and you don't know who that is until the ********************e hits the fan.

 

[Gorilla]

Interesting premise. Fighter types MUST be conditioned. Scoff all you want, but it's true. The closest analogy is wrestling; not much movement, but massive energy expenditure. Any decent air-air sortie will really wring you out physically.

Now to connect athletic attitudes with flying aptitude (and by flying, I'm talking about flying A to B and nothing else) I have my doubts. I think that engineer/science types do have an advantage, not because they are thinking about lift and drag, but because their minds are detached, analytical, and less prone to emotional outbursts. Fuzzy study types - not as good. Generalizations only.

 

[HarryShadow]

All that aside, I've met too many non-athletes who make the grade as a pilot to agree with such a broad generalization. Soooo.... who was the "Athlete" at the 9th SOS (or 550th??) who won't let go of the glory days??

For the purpose of this conversation, I would consider an athlete as anyone who played competitive sports at some point in their life. I know this opens up a whole new topic of what constitues an athlete (i.e., bowlers, golfers, NASCAR drivers, etc).

I agree that someone who never played sports is extremely capable of being a bad a** pilot/leader, and I know a bunch. But as a whole, do “athletes” represent the larger majority of pilots???

As far as the “athlete” at the 9th /550th SOS who won’t let it go…some WPS grad I know!!! imp:

 

[HarryShadow]

I think that engineer/science types do have an advantage, not because they are thinking about lift and drag, but because their minds are detached, analytical, and less prone to emotional outbursts. Fuzzy study types - not as good. Generalizations only.

Good point!

 

[Spooky 2]

Dudesmanship is a higly technical, much misunderstood term. To sum it up, it has a lot to do with having a "baby's arm". And if your not familiar with that term, you'll need to google it. So it does relate to being a swordsman, of sorts.

Good thing you don't take offense to my kidding. I just have issues, as my mom beat me at scrabble as a child, over and over again.

Three years in Golden Gloves, two more in high school football did nothing for me except bend my nose and give sore knees for years to come. I was never very good at either sport. It certainly had little to do with flying ability. I wonder what percentage of the astronaut cadre have serious athletic background. Ditto for some of the great test pilots of the past.

 

[AA717driver]

Brains and fine motor skills. Most "athletes" I've known shouldn't be airplane passengers, let alone pilots. TC

 

[BoilerUP]

There are plenty of fatass pilots out there in the airlines flying everything from RJs to 747-400s, and they do a fine job...and I'd imagine they probably played baseball or football or basketball at some point when they were in school.

I played Little League & Babe Ruth, middle school basketball, peewee & high school football, and got into running during college. To this day I try to do 10-15 miles per week, have done probably 8 road races (5K-half marathon) in the last few years and can run a 21min 5K, not blazing but not shabby. I'm starting training now for another Half this coming spring, hoping for PRs of a 45min 10K in training and a 1:45 in the actual half.

Does any of that make me a better pilot? NOPE...but it does keep me in shape on the road, eating crap food & having irregular sleep schedules.

 

[stonewall]

There are plenty of fatass pilots out there in the airlines flying everything from RJs to 747-400s, and they do a fine job...and I'd imagine they probably played baseball or football or basketball at some point when they were in school.

I played Little League & Babe Ruth, middle school basketball, peewee & high school football, and got into running during college. To this day I try to do 10-15 miles per week, have done probably 8 road races (5K-half marathon) in the last few years and can run a 21min 5K, not blazing but not shabby. I'm starting training now for another Half this coming spring, hoping for PRs of a 45min 10K in training and a 1:45 in the actual half.

Does any of that make me a better pilot? NOPE...but it does keep me in shape on the road, eating crap food & having irregular sleep schedules.

How do you know it doesn't make you a better pilot? I think what this thread should be asking is whether or not people with better hand-eye coordination and a competitive streak make better pilots? I don't think "conditioning" has anything to do with flying at all...some marathon runners couldn't catch a basketball from 10 feet.

I'd venture to say the same skills that make people better athletes (meaning primarily hand-eye coordination as well as physical coordination...like how to catch stuff) make them better pilots. It's not really surprising that one set of physical attributes can make you better at two different and, for the most part, unrelated activities.

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

I think what makes a pilot have above average skills is just not just what's between the ears but as Magnum said hand eye coordination. I think that almost any sport the be good or really good requires good hand eye coordination, I think the same can be said for being a pilot. GO out and do aerobatics, tell me that doesn't require good hand eye coordination. Yes there are some real fatasses out there flying but I can promise you they won't 't be as good at aerobatics as some athlete who's in shape simple due to the fact there reaction time is slower.

On a side note most of the "athletes" and I use that term loosely at the service academy's where for the most part smart kids in high school who happen to be pretty descent at there given sport. I wrestled Division one and most our guys sitting the bench (I did the first yr or so myself) could beat there starters.

 

[milplt]

I wouldn't get too caught up in the "plenty of fat-ass pilots out there.." thinking for this thread. I think that you have to focus on the traits of the potential pilot before he became senior, like did athletic traits help get him to UPT and through UPT. If that is the case, I would say yes.

It was competetive to get to UPT, and an athletic background went a long way in the selection process from what I have seen. And it takes the ability to quickly process information and react to excel in UPT, and I think those with athletic experience have an advantage. It isn't just "hand-eye coordination" that is required.

For those who have moved on from active duty and live in regular neighborhoods, look at your non-pilot neighbors. Are they, as a whole, as "athletic" as your former squadron-mates?

You can always find individual pilots who are non-athletic, and you can obviously find individual non-pilots who are. But, walk in to any bank or other everyday setting and see if the mold matches the squadron.

I'd say the on average, pilots are a little more "athletic" than non-pilots (OK, not CCT dudes, etc. - more like the dudes over at the MPF) and that is because it was there from the start.

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

On a side note, I like that term dudemanship. I know what you mean.

 

[stonewall]

I think what makes a pilot have above average skills is just not just what's between the ears but as Magnum said hand eye coordination. I think that almost any sport the be good or really good requires good hand eye coordination, I think the same can be said for being a pilot. GO out and do aerobatics, tell me that doesn't require good hand eye coordination. Yes there are some real fatasses out there flying but I can promise you they won't 't be as good at aerobatics as some athlete who's in shape simple due to the fact there reaction time is slower.

On a side note most of the "athletes" and I use that term loosely at the service academy's where for the most part smart kids in high school who happen to be pretty descent at there given sport. I wrestled Division one and most our guys sitting the bench (I did the first yr or so myself) could beat there starters.

Easy now. I disagree with your loose use of the term "athlete." That description doesn't jive with most of the intercollegiates at a Service Academy. Just b/c you were a better wrestler than the guys at USAFA doesn't mean they're not good athletes. You could easily say the same about D-1AA or DIII wrestlers.

Ask UT what they think about the "athletes" on USAFA's football team. You could also ask Chad Hennings, Bryce Fisher, Chris Gizzi, or Steve Russ...all played or are playing in the NFL.

As a side note, I've got my first BJJ tourney on the 30th!

 

[Pistlpetet]

I think what makes a pilot have above average skills is just not just what's between the ears but as Magnum said hand eye coordination.

Hmmm If Hand and Eye coordination is so important. Then how come such a small minority of Pilot Error Accidents involve aircraft control, or lack there of it.

It all boils down to JUDGEMENT ie. whats in your grey matter.

There is a difference between what guy is cool in the cockpit to talk to (Reliving glorys days of past sporting prowess), and what guy gets the job done, and returns in one piece.

JUDGEMENT First, Stick Shaking Second!

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

Easy now. I disagree with your loose use of the term "athlete." That description doesn't jive with most of the intercollegiates at a Service Academy. Just b/c you were a better wrestler than the guys at USAFA doesn't mean they're not good athletes. You could easily say the same about D-1AA or DIII wrestlers.

Ask UT what they think about the "athletes" on USAFA's football team. You could also ask Chad Hennings, Bryce Fisher, Chris Gizzi, or Steve Russ...all played or are playing in the NFL.

As a side note, I've got my first BJJ tourney on the 30th!

Magnum, I said that because I knew it would ruffle some feathers, the old competitive side coming out. Then again I will also add there are exceptions to the rule, yes some good athletes do go to the service academies. But for the the most part they are exceptions. Just because David Robinson played basketball at Navy does not mean every Navy B-Ball player is good, he was the exception to the rule.

This is something that happened to me. A guy that had my number in h.s. went to Westpoint and wrestled. He beat me every single match in h.s. Never did pin me but decisioned me every time. He became my rival after about 10th grade. Well he went to USMA and wrestled. Started his freshmen yr while I rode the pine and got better. I was wrestleing tough hombres day in and out and getting whooped. Well 2 yrs into our college career we finally meet up again. I put a punking on him that I bet he will never forget. After the match he threw his head gear across the gym because I was rubbing it in so much (he did the same to me in high school, pay backs a witch).

So yes I will agree there are some good athletes at the service academdies. I was mainly joking around and trying to ruffle a few feathers like I said earlier.
Good luck w/ your 1 st tournament, just relax because if you let your nerves get to you, it will kill your cardio.

Pete, I agree with you somewhat, I think it takes both though. Your right in the fact that most accidents are caused from mental mistakes and not physical ones.

 

[Pistlpetet]

You are right it takes both, all of which probably have nothing to do with sports. It also depends what kind of flying you are talking about. There is no perfect mix, the best we can hope for is to be as well rounded as possible to be the best at our current mission.

In some parts of aviation, taking risks are more important, in others pure brains are the order of the day.

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

Well, good hand eye coordination is something that can be made better. Some people genetically have better hand eye coordination. For the some people that attribute can be improved through sports. Some people are born with good hand eye coordiantion others aren't. Sports are a way to improve it, thus if it can be agreed that hand eye coordination makes one a better, sports can improve one's skill as a pilot.

 

[Scrapdog]

There are plenty of fatass pilots out there in the airlines flying everything from RJs to 747-400s, and they do a fine job...and I'd imagine they probably played baseball or football or basketball at some point when they were in school.

I played Little League & Babe Ruth, middle school basketball, peewee & high school football, and got into running during college. To this day I try to do 10-15 miles per week, have done probably 8 road races (5K-half marathon) in the last few years and can run a 21min 5K, not blazing but not shabby. I'm starting training now for another Half this coming spring, hoping for PRs of a 45min 10K in training and a 1:45 in the actual half.

Does any of that make me a better pilot? NOPE...but it does keep me in shape on the road, eating crap food & having irregular sleep schedules.

If you fly an RJ (which I think you do), a 747, or any other airliner from point A to B you don't have to be a good athlete. You have to be able to turn on the autopilot, throw the gear handle up and down, and tune in the final course on the HSI. I mean, come on - we've seen some pretty gargantuan airline guys out there that look like slobs who can get an aluminum tube from point A to B.

I can't speak for C-130 or C-17 guys flying low levels, but I'd imagine that's pretty taxing to the body. If you're flying a fight-tank-fight in the summer time in any fighter, you'd better dang be in shape or in some type of athletic form because that is extremely tough on the body...especially if it's G intensive like ACM or BFM.

So, bottom line - does being in shape make you a better civilian pilot flying an RJ?...of course not - your job is to fly a straight line from point A to B. Does being in shape make me (or any other military guy) out there a better pilot?...you bet it does - it helps tremendously in high G sorties.

 

[BoilerUP]

Scrapdog, continuing to perpetuate the civilian vs. military pilot debate...

I'd argue that being in shape doesn't make you or anybody a better pilot (as in stick and rudder skills), it makes you less apt to feel the effects of high G forces.

 

[HarryShadow]

I can't speak for C-130 or C-17 guys flying low levels, but I'd imagine that's pretty taxing to the body. If you're flying a fight-tank-fight in the summer time in any fighter, you'd better dang be in shape or in some type of athletic form because that is extremely tough on the body...especially if it's G intensive like ACM or BFM.

It just depends. Our normal training sortie (5.0 with about 2 hour low-level, airdrops, refuelings, max-efforts, etc), not so much. The toughest part for us is the hours we're flying...usually until 0200, home at 0400. Then up the next day ASAP to get back to the desk job.

However, a deployed sortie for us could range from 4 hours to 14 hours, with maybe only 1 hour of high level flight, the rest in the weeds (not a typical profile these days, but 2 years ago they were common practice). I'd throw one of our 14 hour sorties out there in the company of a 1.5 ACM/BFM. But don't let a heavy guy try to convince you this is the norm.

 

[Mamma]

I think what differentiates a good pilot from great pilot, and by default a bad pilot is leadership. Athletes in general embrace the leader role moreso than others. Hand-eye - shamd eye, I can do 200 pushups. Big deal. Can you direct a crew or formation in stressful situations with little time to think? Athletes deal with these issues when they are very young and in their formative years. They see it firsthand when they were learning the sport from the older teammates and more hands on when they are the older teammates expected to display leadership. So, I think, being an athlete is part of a good pilot, but the real attribute is leadership. Not all athletes are leaders and not all leaders are athletes, but I bet in more cases than not, your athletes are going to be out front when leadership is needed. Just my opinion.