ATC, and all these people controlling me!

[UnAnswerd]

One thing quickly evident in aviation, is that you have to talk to alot of people, especially in and around controlled airports. I've been reading names "approach control", "departure control", "tower", "ATC", "ground control", "clearance delivery", and a few others that are presently inspiring some misunderstanding. That said, I have a few questions...

Is "ATC" considered any facility that can control your actions? I always thought of the tower being ATC, but can it also be ground, or approach control, etc...???

In Class D airspace, there usually isn't approach/departure controllers, no?

In Class D airspace, you establish communication with the tower prior to entering, no?

What is clearance delivery? You don't need a clearance to enter Class C or D airspace, so is it only applicable to Class B?

It is wrong to contact the tower prior to entering Class B or C airspace. Who do you contact? Approach control? Clearance delivery?

Yes I operate out of Class D airspace. But to be honest, with 5.7 hours I'm still pretty tied up in handling the airplane. I don't ignore the radio-work, but some of it does get a little lost in my mind, not to mention some of what I've been reading apparently isn't even applicable to where I operate.

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

 

[indianboy7]

Ok, lemme take a stab at it.....

to the first question, the answer is yes, ATC is a general term that describes any facility that can control you.....Center, Approach, Tower, etc. etc...

You answered the class D questions yourself...

Clearance delivery frequency is a place where you can pick up your IFR clearance (Class B, C, or D airspace), or get a departure clearance VFR or IFR (Class B or C).

You should call the Approach control frequency shown on your Sectional or Termainal Area Chart before entering B or C airspace...

If you want to know all the small details, read the AIM chapter regarding ATC and radio communications, and also the Pilot/Controller Glossary to get familiar with all the radio procedures and term that you'll hear....

 

[sopdan]

Please excuse the spacing, something is really jacked up

Is ATC considered any facility that can control your actions?

Yes

In Class D airspace, there usually isn't approach/departure controllers, no?

Therecan be, if there is a TRSA. Also, you may talk toaseparatefacilitybefore going into the Class D, such as a nearbyTRACONorCenter (thiswould be if you're IFR or have requestedflightfollowing.)

In Class D airspace, you establish communication with the tower prior to entering, no?

Yes... unless there is a TRSA, then you'll generally want to contact app. first.

Whatis clearance delivery? You don't need aclearancetoenterClass C or Dairspace, so is it only applicable toClassB?

If an airport has a clearance delivery, that iswhoyouwouldcontactbefore ground when you're ready to go. They'llgiveyouyourIFRclearance, routing instructions (IFR or VFR), squawkcode,etc.Youcan definately see clearance deliveries at C and D airports.

It is wrong to contact the tower prior to entering Class B or C airspace.

Yes

Who do you contact? Approach control?

Yes

Clearance delivery?

Like I wrote above, clearance delivery is for aircraft that haven't even started moving at the airport of departure.

YesI operate out of Class D airspace. But to behonest,with5.7hours I'mstill pretty tied up in handling the airplane.Idon'tignoretheradio-work, but some of it does get a little lost inmymind,nottomention some of what I've been readingapparentlyisn'tevenapplicableto where I operate.

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

And also ask your instructor questions, that's what you're paying him for. He should want you to know this stuff.

 

[minitour]

just remember ATC doesn't controll you...they only think they controll you

Seriously though, just because ATC tells you to do something, you don't have to do it...

And also remember that they're just people on the other side...no one gets it perfect right away or all the time...

Hell, just the other day, tower told me "taxi to park monitor ground"and I read back "taxi to ground monitor uh.....er....." so ithappens...just go with the flow man it's all good!

Good luck!

-mini

 

[JCJ]

There are a couple of things here:


In general, you will never talk to clearance delivery while airborne. You will talk to clearance delivery only on the ground at a Class "B" or Class "C" Airport (or sometimes a Class "D" airport with radar control such as a TRSA) - to pick up a departure clearance (if IFR or VFR departing into Class "B") or a transponder code and departure instructions if VFR at other than Class "B". If you call ground control for taxi clearance without having called clearance delivery, they will probably not give you a taxi clearance and will send you back to clearance delivery.

When airborne and entering Class "C" or Class"D" airspace, you must have established communications with appropriate ATC (Approach control for Class "C", tower for Class "D") before entering the airspace. If you call and they say "aircraft calling stand by" you have NOT established communications and must remain clear of the airspace. If they say "(your N number) stand by" you have established communications and may enter the airspace.

You must have a specific clearance before entering Class "B" airspace (IFR or VFR). For VFR, this means you must specifically hear the phrase "Cleared into the Class Bravo Airspace" before entering. Entering Class "B" airspace without clearance is a big deal.

In general you will be expected to have the current ATIS before calling clearance delivery (on the ground) or an approach control or tower (in the air)

Once you are talking to ATC, the generally will hand you off to another ATC if that is required (i.e. Class "B" or "C" approach control will hand you off to tower at the right time)

In case you are curious, if you are IFR you are on a clearance from departure to arrival so you are usually always under positive control by ATC and therefore already have clearance into Class "B". "C" or "D" as you are instructed by ATC.

 

[minitour]

In case you are curious, if you are IFR you are on a clearance fromdeparture to arrival so you are usually always under positive controlby ATC and therefore already have clearance into Class "B". "C" or "D"as you are instructed by ATC.

Unless you're given a "Cleared to...EFC at..." clearance and that fix happens to be outside the B, C, or D, airspace...

Of course if you lose comms and are in IMC then you would proceed via 91.185...which would include going into B, C, or D...

Where if you lose comms as a VFR outside of B...you don't want to goin...that could be bad...I mean, if it's your only option then go forit, but use good judgement too...

But yeah, make sure Approach tells you those magic words, "Cleared intothe Class Bravo Airspace". Even tell them you want to hear themagic words...sometimes they'll give you back a "roger" which isn'tcool or a "(N-number) proceed as requested" which I can handle, butalways if unsure make them say "cleared into the bravoairspace"...saves you lots of paperwork and a chat with the feds

-mini

 

[pilotman2105]

Is "ATC" consideredany facility that can control your actions? I always thought of thetower being ATC, but can it also be ground, or approach control,etc...???

Just like anything else, it depends on how far in scope you want tolook. Tower, approach, departure, clearance delivery, center, andground are the most obvious ATC facilities. There is also a flowcontrol center in VA somewhere (I think) that monitors the arrival anddeparture rates from the busy airports and adjusts traffic enroute tothese facilities so that they are at or near capacity. Those guysare the ones responsible for your airplane being on a gate hold at yourdeparture point because of traffic at your arrival point.

So do you want to classify them at ATC?

In Class D airspace, there usually isn't approach/departure controllers, no?

Usually, correct. Always, no. As mentioned earlier TRSAsare a form of approach control at Class D airports. There arealso Class D airports with approach control without a publishedTRSA. Rochester, MN and Duluth, MN are a couple that come tomind. They have approach controls, but no TRSAs published.

In Class D airspace, you establish communication with the tower prior to entering,
no?

Generally yes.

A good book to get a hold of would be the Pilot's Air Traffic Control Handbook. It has some excellent basic information about ATC and how it all workstogether. Also read the AIM. There is a ton of info therewhich may help you with some of your questions.

 

[pilotman2105]

Seriously though, just because ATC tells you to do something, you don't have to do it...

Careful there, mini. I understand what you're saying, and yes thepilot does have the ultimate authority to do whatever they want, butlets not mislead the yound and impressionable.

Blatant disregard for ATC clearances (something as simply as cleared to land or cleared to takeoff) can lead you to a heap of trouble.

 

[minitour]

There's a difference in accepting a clearance and then not doing it andnot accepting a clearance in the first place. If you can't ordon't want to do something that's different.

"Turn right 030 maintain VFR at or above 4,500"
"Unable"

or
"Turn right 030 maintain VFR at or above 4,500"
"roger"
*five minutes later*
"I thought I told you to turn to 030"
"oh I decided I couldn't"

Completely different stories. ATC may ask "why are you unable?" but as PIC that is your call whether or not you are able.

-mini

 

[UnAnswerd]

Thanks I really appreciate the replies. I should definitely get a copy of the AIM like others have suggested. I'm sure I'll learn this stuff, it may just take some time. I probably wont be operating in Class B or C airspace for a very long time anyway...

One last question. I had my scanner turned on one day, and I repeatedly kept hearing someone calling out to dozens of aircraft "Contact Boston Center on ......". Just out of curiosity, who was this person, and is a "center" the first person you contact prior to entering say Class B airspace???

Again thanks for the information

 

[UnAnswerd]

There's a difference in accepting a clearance and then not doing it andnot accepting a clearance in the first place. If you can't ordon't want to do something that's different.

"Turn right 030 maintain VFR at or above 4,500"
"Unable"

or
"Turn right 030 maintain VFR at or above 4,500"
"roger"
*five minutes later*
"I thought I told you to turn to 030"
"oh I decided I couldn't"

Completely different stories. ATC may ask "why are you unable?" but as PIC that is your call whether or not you are able.

-mini

What about hearing "Taxi to runway 27", then taxiing to 27 and making an immediate takeoff!!!

 

[pilotman2105]

Get thee to a bookstore or pilot shop and buy a FAR/AIM. Read andbecome educated. There are many different things to consider forany given situation that you describe.

 

[minitour]

What about hearing "Taxi to runway 27", then taxiing to 27 and making an immediate takeoff!!!

That's a runway incursion. You didn't accept a clearance because you weren't givena clearance. Your choice to takeoff was your choice. Ifthey say "hold short" and you don't...that's your call, but likepilotman said, just because you don't have to do what ATC tellsyou, doesn't mean you won't catch sh*t for it. I can't think of agood reason for "unable to hold short" but if you do...I'll be d@mned...

Just as a heads up, runway incursions and Class B seem to be the twobiggies the FAA is concerned with. Anything else (as long as youaren't gonna hit someone, cause loss of separation, etc.) will justdepend on the situation. But if you bust a Bravo or have a runwayincursion, fill out the NASA report yesterday...bad stuff.

Actually as another aside, some of the NASA reports on runwayincursions are kind of comical if you can mentally imagine thesituations. One I was reading while doing a paper was an MD80which crossed the hold short line by only a foot or so and slammed onthe brakes, only to see a Cessna 150 (maybe 152 can't remember thedetails) taxi by. I always get a chuckle out of that mental image.

But yeah, don't go onto a runway without clearance and don't bust a bravo without clearance.

Now if you were given, "Position and Hold" and you did, then a few minutes later you were given "Cleared for immediatetakeoff" you could say "unable immediate takeoff" and then you'returning down the immediate takeoff clearance. You might piss offthe controller by having him send someone around, but if you as PICdon't feel that an immediate takeoff (in that situation) issafely possible, that is your call and you need to tell ATC that youare unable. Even if you're holding short and you get "immediate"takeoff...I've told tower in the past "no thanks, I'll justwait". No harm, no foul...but I'm not going to endanger myself ormy passengers because they're trying to throw me in front of a 172 onmile and a half final...

Other situations:
"Immediate turnout heading 020 cleared for takeoff, traffic two mile final"
Well, "unable immediate turnout, I need 800 feet"
Just make sure you C Y A!

Be smart and safe and you should be fine.

WRT Who controlls what. Think of it like this.

Approach/Departure: Controll the airspace around the airport. The airspace approaching or departing the airport (depending on your viewpoint).

Ground: They control you on the ground (except the runways).

Clearance Delivery: They deliver your IFR or VFR departure clearance to you.

Tower: Who do you talk to before you go on the runway for takeoffor to land? Tower. They controll the runways.

Center: I don't have one for them, but most of the center controllers I've talked to are cool.

Pilotman is right, check out a FAR/AIM. For a student pilot, become familiar with Parts 1, 23, 43, 61, 67, 71, 73, 91, the AIM. It probably seems like a lot right now, but if you spend 20 minutes anight and become friendly with a new regulation or two each night,you'll be in great shape come oral time. Particularly the boldedsections will help you out a bunch. That's my opinionanywho. If you can get friendly with the regs and aerodynamics atan early stage in the training, the rest will come very very easy foryou.

-mini

 

[PropsForward]

just remember ATC doesn't controll you...they only think they controll you

Seriously though, just because ATC tells you to do something, you don't have to do it...

And also remember that they're just people on the other side...no one gets it perfect right away or all the time...

Hell, just the other day, tower told me "taxi to park monitor ground"and I read back "taxi to ground monitor uh.....er....." so ithappens...just go with the flow man it's all good!

Good luck!

-mini

The give clearances, not instruction.

Although I did hear a controller in palm beach instruction to a pilot one night:

ATC - "N12345 proceed direct Pahokee"
N12345 - "Unable direct, I don't have a GPS on board"
ATC - "N12345, try tuning your VOR to 115.4, turn the dial and the airplane to 310 degrees and try to keep the needle in the center."
N12345 - "Oh"

 

[minitour]

The give clearances, not instruction.

Great way to think about it...I'll add it to my teaching notes. Thanks

-mini

 

[FN FAL]

In general, you will never talk to clearance delivery while airborne. You will talk to clearance delivery only on the ground at a Class "B" or Class "C" Airport (or sometimes a Class "D" airport with radar control such as a TRSA).

Although the clearance delivery guy at PWK was giving me a little ribbing about calling him airborne, I did so once to file an IFR flight plan. He took the plan and forwarded it. I needed the IFR filed for an outbound out of Meigs...and I was in a tight spot for time and couldn't get ahold of anyone else.

I don't recommend doing it that way and the clearance delivery guy asked me not to do that again, but he did take the flight plan and he put it in the system.