ATA... where to next?

[FlyChicaga]

ATA guys and gals: Any word on what's next after the announcement today from the MEC chair? Doesn't sound promising.

 

[viking737]

What was the announcement?

 

[Capt. Kramer]

Agreements reached in area of concessions, but company wouldn't agree to 2007 snapback pay rates for B-717. The union felt if an agreement could not be reached on the entire package, (B-717 pay and concessions), that they would shelve the whole deal for now. The union offered the company what they thought were fair rates for the 717 in 2007.

 

[njcapt]

They were 99.5% of the way there, but the snap backs are a deal breaker. I was fairly satisfied with the rest of the agreement (at least with the bullet points I heard from the MEC), so if the company wants to agree to the last offer from the Negotiating Committee, I think we might be in business.

Rising above the fray I have to believe that if the company wanted these concessions bad enough, they would have managed to reach an agreement with the Union. Obviously, they don't want it bad enough. I am glad, however, that the MEC unanimously voted to reject the company's final offer and leave the ball in their court.

Kudos to the ATA ALPA Negotiating Committee and the MEC.

 

[Tristar]

Ditto to what NJCapt said.

 

[FLB717]

What are some of the numbers that are able to be shared. Rastes, Rigs etc.

 

[MDP727]

Perhaps the company may call and strike a further deal. On the flip side they could ram in our ass now too. We could also be dealing with furloughs now or possibly acquiring arcft for connection. To hear that this management team actually offered profit sharing at all and most of the giveback package was agreed upon tells me they were serious about getting this done. This should have been two seperate issues, concession package/possible new aircraft arrival pay. Now were rolling the dice and giving up what sounded like a reasonable package because of pay rates in 2007 on a new aircraft that hasn't arrived yet or hasn't even been ordered for that matter.

 

[FlyChicaga]

The concessions would give back about $45 million to the company, through wage freezes, per diem changes, etc. Then, after the freeze is complete, profit sharing would be in place to repay the entire concessionary investment until ~$48.7 million was repaid to the pilots. Basically a payback of the concessions with interest. It wasn't really that there was a pay cut, but rather a pay freeze. From listening to the ATA MEC line, the deal sounded like a good one. Hopefully management will come back to the table and work something out. I would hate to see furloughs, Chapter 11, sale of assets (ahem...Connection) because of issues over an aircraft which is not yet acquired.

When is the current contract up for re-negotiation? 2008?

Edit: Those numbers are estimates from what I remember, not the exacts.

 

[texanpilot]

I believe the contract's last year is '06.

 

[MDP727]

Current contract ends July 06. Then we get an additional 6 or 8% increase incase further negs are stalled. This really didn't sound like to bad a deal. We still get longevity increases which are pretty substantial because of the overall rise in pay over the life of the contract. Then with profit sharing, something this company has never been willing to relinquish. Who knows were we go now?

 

[tz800ca]

Open Your Eyes

We could also be dealing with furloughs now or possibly acquiring arcft for connection.

WHATEVER!

That is exactly what they want you to think. This is exactly the type thinking that has kept ATA's pay scales AT or near the bottom (as we are NOW, with the exception of AA) for the last 31 years.

If ATA needs 717s, they will order them and then negoiate the payscales according to section 26AA of our CBA. They will not go to C8.

To hear that this management team actually offered profit sharing at all and most of the giveback package was agreed upon tells me they were serious about getting this done.

NO NO NO. If they were serious, they would have come to an agreement.



42.5 MILLION WILL NOT SAVE ATA Name one major airline that has been saved by concessions from labor. Labor costs do not cause airlines to fail, bad management does, period.



ATA has THE LOWEST crew cost per seat mile ($0.016) in the industry. Our closest LCC competitor (JBLU) has crew costs 12% higher than ATA. The highest LCC (Alaska) has crew costs that are 113% higher than ATA. Southwests' crew costs are 81% higher than ATAs.

 

[On Your Six]

TZ,

So what is your solution or suggestion? What can ATA do beyond Siegel-like cost cutting measures to improve the situation? George has indicated that short-haul markets will become a priority - clearly the 717 should fit that role. How would you improve things beyond some basic cost cutting?

 

[texanpilot]

TZCA,
Lowest pay in the industry? First of all, lets compare apples to apples, not LCC's vs. High Cost Carriers. How does ATA compare to LCC's. I dont have contracts to compare, but I bet ATA pilots are doing pretty well. I have flown with plenty of Capts that say how nice it is to work here at a LCC and bank 220k a year after ten years. Are JetBlue, AirTran, AmWest, etc making that? Just curious. Thx.

 

[its none ya]

Texanpilot,

If you reread the post from TZCA you will see he said Lowest crew cost per seat mile (0.016). That is the lowest in the industry PERIOD, LCC or Legacy. He was not talking about straight pay, we are making pretty good in that catagory.

 

[MDP727]

TZ
Hey bud don't ever accuse me of keeping our wages low. I voted no on our current CBA and pretty much everything else that's come down the pike. Including this cap issue that keeps resurfacing. I work 75-77 hr month, I work my line!
I'm proud to work for ATA but lets call a spade a spade, read the SEC filings. WE HAVE NO CASH AND WERE LOSING MONEY. Will our givebacks save the company, no, it will take a combined effort from many avenues. The pilot groups package would ad 5 million to the bottom every quarter. It's not our fault were in this spot but they need relief. Incase you haven't noticed fuel prices lately go down to the store and buy some gas.
Your probably one of the people that keeps saying George is hiding all the money under his matress. Or even better this 717 deal that George has struck by super secret handshake in the mens crapper. That was "supposed" to be finalized by 5/13 well it's the 20th now were are they, were's the announcement.
Yes if some sort of direction isn't changed in the near future furloughs are a distinct possibility.
It's time to wake up.

 

[Live4flyng]

WOW

ATA has THE LOWEST crew cost per seat mile ($0.016) in the industry. Our closest LCC competitor (JBLU) has crew costs 12% higher than ATA. The highest LCC (Alaska) has crew costs that are 113% higher than ATA. Southwests' crew costs are 81% higher than ATAs.

Maybe you should be concerned more about the profitablitiy of the company than all that garbage posted above. You may not have a job much longer when they decide to liquidate. I would have my app in at SWA and AirTran if I were you.

 

[PC_FROM_TEXAS]

Hopefully the union can come to an agreement with the company on the pay rates. But what happens if they dont. What next. What are the chances that ATA will scrap the 100 seat idea and settle for 70 seaters for C8 who is not union represented. Also heard a rumor that TZ and HP are talking about merging. Anyone else hear that.

PC_FROM_TEXAS

 

[TWA Dude]

Also heard a rumor that TZ and HP are talking about merging. Anyone else hear that.

No, but that's an excellent rumor. I'll be sure to spread it at the schoolhouse here in PHX tomorrow.

Keep in mind that the provisions of the ATSB loan guarantees require gov't approval for big things like acquisitions. Due to cash position HP would be the dominant carrier and I don't see them making such a huge deal.

P.S. gosh help me if I have to live through another merger.

Dude

 

[Tristar]

Also heard a rumor that TZ and HP are talking about merging. Anyone else hear that.

Six-way merger, designed to make LCC's as unresponsive to change as Legacy's have been to level the playing field:
ATA, Airtran, America West, Frontier, Alaska, Hawaiian.
Company to be called AirTransWest Hawalasktier Airlines. Livery will consist of a heavy Hawaiian girl in a parka, being eaten by a bear holding a sylized flag with an @ on it in front of a desert sunset. Seniority lists will be integrated by lottery in inverse seniority order, with preference going to Native American lesbians of Hebrew descent. The new company will be run into the ground by Steven Wolf.

Any questions?

(Hey, it's as good as any rumour out there, and probably more accurate . . .)

 

[NZCHooverboy]

Remain Calm

The MEC wisely walked away from absurdly low proposed 717 pay rates. The ones the company proposed would not give a 3 or 4 year FO any incentive to move to the left seat of the 717. The actual wage difference positions are not that far apart.

The negotiating committee will most likely talk with management in a few days. 95% of the issues are solved. Again, I think the MEC acted wisely to prevent a LCC within an LCC from being established. The MEC realizes the 717 will have pay lower than the 737 and 757, but they have set a limit that will preclude us from having ATA and ATA TED.

As far as the fear that management will do bunga bunga to us, consider that our busiest season (with good bookings) is coming up. Also, if our cash position is assumed to be precarious, furloughs will not result in near term cost cuts. The training cycles required will drive up short term costs.

The fact that the MEC achieved so much in a few days is encouraging. So is the fact that they are resisting unreasonable demands from management. The leverage is on our side these days and management realizes it or the astonishing precedent (at least for us at ATA) of granting profit sharing would never had happened.

In the meantime, Management needs to start taking Ginko Baloba or whatever that stuff Larry King hawks so they can have deep and coherent thoughts. Their failures, not ours, have put us in this position. Now is the time for us to reject their attempt at blame transferral and hold them as accountable as they do us.

In closing, if any of you think George is going to tube his airline/alter ego for $20 buck of wage difference hasn't been here very long.

Fly your flights safely, serve our pax well and let the negotiating committee and MEC work the problem.

 

[treetop flyer]

Tristar...

I'm still laughing. Nice.

TF

 

[texanpilot]

its none ya

"WHATEVER!

That is exactly what they want you to think. This is exactly the type thinking that has kept ATA's pay scales AT or near the bottom (as we are NOW, with the exception of AA) for the last 31 years. "

Thats what I read.

 

[flyby]

The Daily Rumor

Six-way merger, designed to make LCC's as unresponsive to change as Legacy's have been to level the playing field:
ATA, Airtran, America West, Frontier, Alaska, Hawaiian.
Company to be called AirTransWest Hawalasktier Airlines. Livery will consist of a heavy Hawaiian girl in a parka, being eaten by a bear holding a sylized flag with an @ on it in front of a desert sunset. Seniority lists will be integrated by lottery in inverse seniority order, with preference going to Native American lesbians of Hebrew descent. The new company will be run into the ground by Steven Wolf.

Any questions?

(Hey, it's as good as any rumour out there, and probably more accurate . . .)

This is why I visit flightinfo. Funny stuff. Maybe you could run a "Daily Rumor" column and keep everyone here smiling.

cheers

 

[tz800ca]

On Your Six:

So what is your solution or suggestion?

Good question! I guess if any one of us had the answer we would be running the place right? IMHO, the things that are affecting ATA have affected the industry as a whole and ATA with its labor cost advantages should have faired better than has been advertised so far. Why? It is certainly not because they spend too much for labor, because the numbers do not lie, ATA has THE LOWEST CREW COST IN THE INDUSTRY PER SEAT MILE, BAR NONE! Look at the numbers they do not lie! ATA has a huge cost advantage over everyone including LCCs.

ALPA did a financial analysis recently of ATA at our union’s request that was not released to the pilot group because of confidentiality. By all accounts it said that ATA’s cash position and financial position has not changed in 10 years. That tells me that our cash position and/or financial position are either 1. by plan or 2. Ineptitude, if the “word on the street” is true.

It should be obvious to anyone that has any common sense what has happened here. Management has failed to this point.

Texanpilot,

Lowest pay in the industry?

Funny, I did a search of the entire thread and this phrase only comes up in your response…… Context is everything.

First of all, lets compare apples to apples, not LCC's vs. High Cost Carriers.

Here is your “apples to apples” comparison. All 737NG operators, nothing else. You tell me how we are doing when comparing “Apples to Apples”. Last time I checked ALPA did not have a “B” scale for LCCs, so I do not get where you come up with the Legacy vs. LCC. If you want a “B” scale draft a resolution and submit it at the next LEC meeting.

I did just include Sun Country in the mix to make ATA look better, so we are #3 from the bottom for the 737NG. Questionable weather they should even be there, I do not know if they are currently running any scheduled service or if it is all charter. Take them out of the mix and the average goes up about $10/hour and ATA is #2 from the bottom.

I have flown with plenty of Capts that say how nice it is to work here at a LCC and bank 220k a year after ten years.

Under our current pay rates a 12 year L10 CA makes $159,597 based on current pay scale rate of $177.33 and 900 hours a year. Want to make $220K a year, fine go ahead if you want to spend 0 time at home, but not for me. Those same people are the ones that want the 100 credit cap removed so they can fly even more. If they had their way you might not be a Captain right now if your # is over 550 or so. Food for thought.

MDP727,

No disrespect and nothing personal at all intended. I voted for it for the record and think it was a FAIR agreement. It is STILL a FAIR AGREEMENT AS IS. I just think it would be a huge mistake to give so much back in such a short amount of time. Especially since so many sacrificed so long to get it. Remember when people used to ask, “When is this thing going to get done?” and the standard answer from management types was “Well, it normally takes 24 months to negotiate a new contract” all the while smiling and then showing up to negotiations so they could drag their feet while you put no money into a retirement account, a 529 for the kids, and worked 120 hours a month just to make the mortgage? Regardless, the company wants us to think that the sky is indeed falling so we give in. I say, not so fast, time is on our side. This place WILL NOT shut the doors overnight and if BK is in the future for ATA we will not stop it or avoid it with only 42.5 million over 2 years. I would be the first in line to do it if it would save the day, but it will not. It will not even extend the inevitable a significant amount of time unless things change down south in a big way.

I'm proud to work for ATA but lets call a spade a spade, read the SEC filings. WE HAVE NO CASH AND WERE LOSING MONEY.

Answer this for me because I only remember vaguely:

How much was the one time bond charge? (27 Million?)
How much did we loose on the transcon thing? (I thought I saw 30 Million)
How much did we loose on the INDY jet service? (I thought I saw 6 Million)

1st quarter last year we lost something like 11 Million and showed a Net profit for the year, right?

If those numbers are correct our current first quarter are not nearly as alarming as seems of the surface.

I work 75-77 hr month, I work my line!

Me too, we agree on one……..

The pilot groups package would ad 5 million to the bottom every quarter.

I bet you a beer that ATA could blow 5 million in less than a week easy maybe even a few days.

It's not our fault were in this spot but they need relief. Incase you haven't noticed fuel prices lately go down to the store and buy some gas.
Your probably one of the people that keeps saying George is hiding all the money under his matress. Or even better this 717 deal that George has struck by super secret handshake in the mens crapper. That was "supposed" to be finalized by 5/13 well it's the 20th now were are they, were's the announcement.
Yes if some sort of direction isn't changed in the near future furloughs are a distinct possibility. It's time to wake up.

If you have not noticed, we are not the only airline on the planet affected by fuel prices. Why is ATA doing so poorly if fuel prices affect ALL airlines? It certainly is not how much they pay us, because we have the lowest crew cost per mile in the industry. What else could it be??????? And would a measly 5 million a quarter save the whole thing? Think what you want, it is a matter of opinion. I choose to look at history and history has shown that we cannot not save this airline. Only management can save it by doing their job and managing. Hopefully it is not too late.

BTW, I do not believe any of the super secret deal theories or hiding money under the mattress.

 

[English]

The linky you posted is incorrect, as far as the Aloha numbers go. We have an 80 hour a month guarantee and the hourly rate is too low. That skews your graph a bit.

www.airlinepilotpay.com

 

[English]

Wow, that was a quick fix! Now just the hourly rate is wrong. Should be 152 for CA and 102 for FO.

Great comparison, thanks!

 

[tz800ca]

Work in progress

Must of had some old numbers from that website, seems they change daily sometimes.

 

[English]

The numbers you have for Aloha FO are the -200 numbers. -700 FOs make 102, according to the website.

 

[tz800ca]

Try now.....

Your PM message mailbox is showing full, I tried to reply.

Thank you and go ahead in reply to your question. Let me know if you see any other errors.

 

[PingPong]

So are the ATA pilots still negotiating on this 100 seat aircraft or is the whole issue put on hold for awhile. Seems like there was a lot of hype and now all of a sudden things quieted down. Are they looking into any other ideas or still pursuing this one?