ATA... where to next?

[treetop flyer]

Tristar...

I'm still laughing. Nice.

TF

 

[texanpilot]

its none ya

"WHATEVER!

That is exactly what they want you to think. This is exactly the type thinking that has kept ATA's pay scales AT or near the bottom (as we are NOW, with the exception of AA) for the last 31 years. "

Thats what I read.

 

[flyby]

The Daily Rumor

Six-way merger, designed to make LCC's as unresponsive to change as Legacy's have been to level the playing field:
ATA, Airtran, America West, Frontier, Alaska, Hawaiian.
Company to be called AirTransWest Hawalasktier Airlines. Livery will consist of a heavy Hawaiian girl in a parka, being eaten by a bear holding a sylized flag with an @ on it in front of a desert sunset. Seniority lists will be integrated by lottery in inverse seniority order, with preference going to Native American lesbians of Hebrew descent. The new company will be run into the ground by Steven Wolf.

Any questions?

(Hey, it's as good as any rumour out there, and probably more accurate . . .)

This is why I visit flightinfo. Funny stuff. Maybe you could run a "Daily Rumor" column and keep everyone here smiling.

cheers

 

[tz800ca]

On Your Six:

So what is your solution or suggestion?

Good question! I guess if any one of us had the answer we would be running the place right? IMHO, the things that are affecting ATA have affected the industry as a whole and ATA with its labor cost advantages should have faired better than has been advertised so far. Why? It is certainly not because they spend too much for labor, because the numbers do not lie, ATA has THE LOWEST CREW COST IN THE INDUSTRY PER SEAT MILE, BAR NONE! Look at the numbers they do not lie! ATA has a huge cost advantage over everyone including LCCs.

ALPA did a financial analysis recently of ATA at our union’s request that was not released to the pilot group because of confidentiality. By all accounts it said that ATA’s cash position and financial position has not changed in 10 years. That tells me that our cash position and/or financial position are either 1. by plan or 2. Ineptitude, if the “word on the street” is true.

It should be obvious to anyone that has any common sense what has happened here. Management has failed to this point.

Texanpilot,

Lowest pay in the industry?

Funny, I did a search of the entire thread and this phrase only comes up in your response…… Context is everything.

First of all, lets compare apples to apples, not LCC's vs. High Cost Carriers.

Here is your “apples to apples” comparison. All 737NG operators, nothing else. You tell me how we are doing when comparing “Apples to Apples”. Last time I checked ALPA did not have a “B” scale for LCCs, so I do not get where you come up with the Legacy vs. LCC. If you want a “B” scale draft a resolution and submit it at the next LEC meeting.

I did just include Sun Country in the mix to make ATA look better, so we are #3 from the bottom for the 737NG. Questionable weather they should even be there, I do not know if they are currently running any scheduled service or if it is all charter. Take them out of the mix and the average goes up about $10/hour and ATA is #2 from the bottom.

I have flown with plenty of Capts that say how nice it is to work here at a LCC and bank 220k a year after ten years.

Under our current pay rates a 12 year L10 CA makes $159,597 based on current pay scale rate of $177.33 and 900 hours a year. Want to make $220K a year, fine go ahead if you want to spend 0 time at home, but not for me. Those same people are the ones that want the 100 credit cap removed so they can fly even more. If they had their way you might not be a Captain right now if your # is over 550 or so. Food for thought.

MDP727,

No disrespect and nothing personal at all intended. I voted for it for the record and think it was a FAIR agreement. It is STILL a FAIR AGREEMENT AS IS. I just think it would be a huge mistake to give so much back in such a short amount of time. Especially since so many sacrificed so long to get it. Remember when people used to ask, “When is this thing going to get done?” and the standard answer from management types was “Well, it normally takes 24 months to negotiate a new contract” all the while smiling and then showing up to negotiations so they could drag their feet while you put no money into a retirement account, a 529 for the kids, and worked 120 hours a month just to make the mortgage? Regardless, the company wants us to think that the sky is indeed falling so we give in. I say, not so fast, time is on our side. This place WILL NOT shut the doors overnight and if BK is in the future for ATA we will not stop it or avoid it with only 42.5 million over 2 years. I would be the first in line to do it if it would save the day, but it will not. It will not even extend the inevitable a significant amount of time unless things change down south in a big way.

I'm proud to work for ATA but lets call a spade a spade, read the SEC filings. WE HAVE NO CASH AND WERE LOSING MONEY.

Answer this for me because I only remember vaguely:

How much was the one time bond charge? (27 Million?)
How much did we loose on the transcon thing? (I thought I saw 30 Million)
How much did we loose on the INDY jet service? (I thought I saw 6 Million)

1st quarter last year we lost something like 11 Million and showed a Net profit for the year, right?

If those numbers are correct our current first quarter are not nearly as alarming as seems of the surface.

I work 75-77 hr month, I work my line!

Me too, we agree on one……..

The pilot groups package would ad 5 million to the bottom every quarter.

I bet you a beer that ATA could blow 5 million in less than a week easy maybe even a few days.

It's not our fault were in this spot but they need relief. Incase you haven't noticed fuel prices lately go down to the store and buy some gas.
Your probably one of the people that keeps saying George is hiding all the money under his matress. Or even better this 717 deal that George has struck by super secret handshake in the mens crapper. That was "supposed" to be finalized by 5/13 well it's the 20th now were are they, were's the announcement.
Yes if some sort of direction isn't changed in the near future furloughs are a distinct possibility. It's time to wake up.

If you have not noticed, we are not the only airline on the planet affected by fuel prices. Why is ATA doing so poorly if fuel prices affect ALL airlines? It certainly is not how much they pay us, because we have the lowest crew cost per mile in the industry. What else could it be??????? And would a measly 5 million a quarter save the whole thing? Think what you want, it is a matter of opinion. I choose to look at history and history has shown that we cannot not save this airline. Only management can save it by doing their job and managing. Hopefully it is not too late.

BTW, I do not believe any of the super secret deal theories or hiding money under the mattress.

 

[English]

The linky you posted is incorrect, as far as the Aloha numbers go. We have an 80 hour a month guarantee and the hourly rate is too low. That skews your graph a bit.

www.airlinepilotpay.com

 

[English]

Wow, that was a quick fix! Now just the hourly rate is wrong. Should be 152 for CA and 102 for FO.

Great comparison, thanks!

 

[tz800ca]

Work in progress

Must of had some old numbers from that website, seems they change daily sometimes.

 

[English]

The numbers you have for Aloha FO are the -200 numbers. -700 FOs make 102, according to the website.

 

[tz800ca]

Try now.....

Your PM message mailbox is showing full, I tried to reply.

Thank you and go ahead in reply to your question. Let me know if you see any other errors.

 

[PingPong]

So are the ATA pilots still negotiating on this 100 seat aircraft or is the whole issue put on hold for awhile. Seems like there was a lot of hype and now all of a sudden things quieted down. Are they looking into any other ideas or still pursuing this one?

 

[On Your Six]

Yeah, when are the 717s estimated to arrive? How many and how soon? Looks like a great airplane and a nice ride....

 

[mach zero]

Right now it is a wait and see game. The MEC is waiting to see if the company will come back to the table to talk 717 pay in 2007 and beyond. The company is waiting to see if the MEC will come to them to accept their rates. Right now however, there are NO negotiations taking place nor any planned.

As far as acquiring 717's goes, we have not heard anything from the company on the issue since the negotiations ended. So who knows if we will get those planes or not.

The pay freeze issue was also halted when the negotiations stopped. It will be interesting to see who blinks first.

 

[tz800ca]

Right now however, there are NO negotiations taking place nor any planned.

Unless you have better information, I was told the Company called on Monday and talks have been going on behind the scenes since. Why the secrecy, I do not know.

Another tidbit: The most junior of the negotiating team members was removed because he had an opposing view on weather the company actually needed relief. What is bothersome about this is the fact this is not the first time something like this has happened.

For whatever reason this MEC is H*LL bent on giving our already concessionary contract up to the company. The company has used the carrot and stick routine to perfection with the 717 and the MEC has fallen for it hook, line, and sinker. I just wonder when the rank and file will finally stand up take their MEC back.

And all this from a company that in it last SEC 10-Q statement said "For the 2004 fiscal year, the Company currently expects that it may earn an operating profit" and "The Company presently expects that the $132.2 million cash on hand at March 31, 2004, together with cash generated by future operations, will be sufficient to fund the Company's obligations throughout 2004".

Puzzled......

 

[MDP727]

Hey tz,
This person your speaking of has posted on our own message board that he resigned----different from being removed.
He stated for personal reasons but mostly due to his family life.

 

[Formula1]

Continuing negotiations

Listen to John Grabers Chief pilot info line from Friday the 21st. He mentioned that negotiations are still ongoing and that he hoped the company and the union could come to an agreement sometime soon.

 

[texanpilot]

I think the concessions and 717 pay should be two separate issues. If we are indeed in dire straits, lets take care of the pay freeze,etc then discuss the 717. What is the point of walking away from negotiations on a ghost plane? We might as well discuss Emb190, 747, 7E7, and A318 rates while we are at it, just incase we get those planes in the next couple decades.

 

[mt2]

Why?

The only strength we had in all of this was that we tied the 717 pay rates to the concessions package. The Company wants both but needs the concessions more than they need an agreement on 717 pay rates, thus forcing them to play "fair" on the 717 issue.

I initially thought as you did but after some thought and seeing the way things played out -- I'm glad we packaged things.