ATA-RJs???

[h25b]

The Saab 2000 while being a great aircraft performance wise, would be a REALLY stupid move at this point in it's life... Absolutely NO customer support on this product both for training and most importantly parts. Of course it wouldn't be the first time an airline did something REALLY stupid. The only North American customer that ever was, General Motors, only operated three, which by the way have been for sale forever. The main operator was Cross Air. ie... in EUROPE. It's ALWAYS better to have an airplane that has a home. (in production.)

 

[ataopsdave]

I understand that the 2000 currently does not habe any customers in the US but SAAB will probably cut them a deal for parts and service.

 

[mt2]

weight factors into equation

As I understand things the RJ's took a back seat when the new pax weights took effect. The new weights put operational limits on the RJ's -- thus it is very hard to justify the cost of such a machine. The Saab 2000's are probably going to be cheap up front (but more expensive eventually) and have good range/payload capability out of MDW which makes them the frontrunner.

As far as ATA is concerned, we don't have too many aircraft, rather a shortage of pilots on the line at the moment .

Only time will tell what is going to happen.

 

[antney]

Well the newest rumor of this past week at C8 is that their will be an announcement coming soon about 25 aircraft, again a rumor! No one is saying what aircraft, but it wont be a jet. It is between the Q400 and the saab 2000. The Q400 is just to big for parking at the south ramp, where we are parked now. Plus, that would be a huge pax jump from our current 32 to 70 pax. What is being said is that part of the package through saab is that it will be a swap from our current leases on the 340 to the 2000. Crossair is parking I beleive 30 of their 36 aircraft. Which means Saab has way to many cost to let this aircraft sit and not be flown. Also I heard that they want Saab to pay for the initial training cost. Again all rumors. There is a Saab 2000 simulator at flight safety in Vero Beach, and then somewere in Europe, again they would just move the sim to a flight safety either on our route structure (Toledo), or mainline city (Orlando). The talks and rumors have been flying a lot. But these are the same rumors that been going for the past 5+ years about RJs. When were calling gear up on a revenue flight then its a reality.
Anthony

BTW-NJCapt, How can bankrupt companies afford to finance numerous RJs then?!? We shouldn't have this problem, its just a matter of ATA wanting to make the right plane choice.

 

[ataopsdave]

I have not heard that we were going to get 25. The rumor that was going around a couple weks ago was that we were going through an even trade which would be 17 aircraft. I did hear that they want SAAB to pay for the training and probably move the sim to TOL.

 

[antney]

ATAOPSDAVE
Yes, I heard the same rumor about the sim at your out sation at Toledo. Rumor for now!!!!

About the number of airplanes? Again this is a rumor, but is the newest. I heard this, I guess from a good source, but then again it could be a bad source, that there will be 25 on the property and training will begin after the holidays. This was on this past Friday afternoon. Again, I'll repeat this so this doesn't get taking any other way, this is just the newest RUMOR, to stack on the top of the pile!

But I've heard all of the same rumors you have too. I do know, this coming from our info line, that Saab will be back at our offices this week. They been at C8 a few more times than normal lately, hopefully meaning a good sign.

Oh by the way all of our OBDs are suppose to have the Saab 2000 format installed already. I was trying to find it last time I flew no luck!!!!

Enjoy!!!!
Anthony

 

[ataopsdave]

ANTNEY

All that is good news. Hopefully the rumors are all true about us getting 25 planes. That would be cool.

 

[njcapt]

BTW-NJCapt, How can bankrupt companies afford to finance numerous RJs then?!? We shouldn't have this problem, its just a matter of ATA wanting to make the right plane choice.

I'm not aware of any bankrupt airlines acquiring RJ's, but I'm not sure what your point is. So, Saab is desperate enough to give their 2000's away for a song. That doesn't mean that C8 SHOULD operate them. I have some concern that ATAH, in an effort to maximize the Express operation, is possibly getting into a bum deal.

I speak from some experience. United Feeder Service, where I was a Captain, flew the BAe ATP. This aircraft had production numbers similar to the Saab 2000, was supposedly advanced for its time, and was a maintenance nightmare. Strange things would break all the time, causing multi-day groundings while parts were scavenged from all over the world. It had unique components that weren't interchangable with any other aircraft. Even though Hulas Kanodia got the aircraft for a song from United they never worked properly, causing ridiculous delays and numerous pissed off passengers, and were given the boot by United in early 2000.

I don't want to put our passengers through another experience like that. The Saab 340's are fairly reliable, have reasonable lease rates and have vast parts support. I hope management is thinking with a clear head on this one.

 

[General Lee]

NJCAPT,

Didn't USAir order $4.3 billion worth of RJs just before exiting Chap 11? Or was it just afterwards? Where did they come up with that money?

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[sayagain?]

The pilot's pension?!

sayagain?

 

[njcapt]

NJCAPT,

Didn't USAir order $4.3 billion worth of RJs just before exiting Chap 11? Or was it just afterwards? Where did they come up with that money?

Bye Bye--General Lee

May 12, 2003

US Airways, which only emerged from bankruptcy protection at the end of March, today announced a massive USD$4.3 billion order with the world's two largest builders of regional jets. It is split equally between the two manufacturers.

I think I'll wait a year or so to see how that one plays out. I'm not saying that airlines in bad financial straits can't get find aircraft (heii, I worked for Vanguard, and we always managed to find more chumps willing to supply us with aircraft). I'm concerned that ATAH might be chasing a sweetheart deal on some swamp land in Florida with this one. ATA has finally got their feces consolidated, and I don't relish a return to the days of the 'Always Tardy Airline'.

 

[antney]

NJCAPT I agree with what you are saying about the parts issue with the 2000, never really looked at this or thought about it. But I would imagine if we did get the 2000 that concern would be looked into. Also I think the issue with C8 is that with the loss of 2 pax due to new weights isnt hurting us right now, but when the holiday season comes around it will. I don't see us getting a 50 seat RJ due to their restrictions out of midway. And to just operate a 70 seat jet would be great but wont work for most of route structure. We still need a "jet prop" for most of our current route structure, and the 2000 is great for that, plus carrying 50 people still even with the new weights. But I would imagine ATA
H is allready concerned about maintence and part issues with the 2000.

And about companies financing RJS, whats the deal with USAIR and United. They all got RJs. Im just saying that we could finance them if they wanted to. But they are just clearing up mainline side, don't know if they want another burden. Either way C8 needs new aircraft soon, it just seems like were falling behind the curve with everyone else.

 

[h25b]

NJCapt has an excellent example. There's no doubt that the 2000 performance wise would be a hell of an airplane. But it's a can of worms maintenance/support wise. ATA would be VERY wise to turn around and run, fast, VERY FAST, from this deal. I'm sure Saab is telling them all sorts of stories on why there should be no concerns about customer support. That's what all aircraft sales people say, especially when they've got ramps full of these things starting to collect dust as CrossAir turns them in. Just hope this works out for them if that's the direction they're heading....

 

[AceCrackshot]

So what airline haven't you worked for njcapt? I thought I was good with 3 in 3 years...until I heard 7 in 4 1/2, but you might be the winner of that crappy prize.

Funny, I hadn't heard UFS in three years and now I talk about it three times in two days.

 

[njcapt]

So what airline haven't you worked for njcapt? I thought I was good with 3 in 3 years...until I heard 7 in 4 1/2, but you might be the winner of that crappy prize.

Funny, I hadn't heard UFS in three years and now I talk about it three times in two days.

I've got five airlines, six different times, over 11 years (after four years of corporate flying and three instructing). I'm far from the biggest aviation loser. The biggest I know of is a bud of mine who has worked for seven airlines, eight times (we both were furloughed from Allegheny and went back), over 11 years. After being senior to me at ALG he's been my butt boy at UFS, Vanguard and ATA. I think he'll be OK now.