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ataopsdave
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2003
- Posts
- 272
ataopsdave
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2003
- Posts
- 272
UM #1
Where did you hear that the 717 was a done deal? It isn't yet, unless I missed a press release today. Boeing has to decide whether or not to help finance the deal. It all hinges on them, since ATA really doesn't have any cash to go spending. Boeing had a lot of 717 canceled orders, and is about to shut down the 717 line. This would be expensive in iteself for them. So they may come around and deal with ATA.
Also, if they do, the first 717 won't be here for ABOUT A YEAR. Got that word for word from a Chief Pilot yesterday. He said it takes that long to get a program in place, FAA approval and training started. Good news is, ATA is approved to fly into just about any airport anywhere in the world. So it will go quicker than it would for other airlines.
ALL the 717's will be new airframes on the property. Yes, in addition to all the stuff we have now. SO, if this works, just about every f/o on the property today will be a captain very soon. And we will hire newbies to fill in the open seats.
And, yes, the pilot pay freeze has nothing to do with the 717 deal. It isn't a concession- it is a pay and seniority freeze for 2 years. First year guys will still get 2nd year pay when they get to their second year, and then get frozen there. The company never asked for first year guys to stay on first year pay. This pay freeze is to try to increase the cash flow, and get us over the fuel price hump. Everyone was asked for it company wide. (Well, except maybe the big wigs, but let's not go there!! he he)
Hang on to your hats, boys, this could be a wild ride!
Where did you hear that the 717 was a done deal? It isn't yet, unless I missed a press release today. Boeing has to decide whether or not to help finance the deal. It all hinges on them, since ATA really doesn't have any cash to go spending. Boeing had a lot of 717 canceled orders, and is about to shut down the 717 line. This would be expensive in iteself for them. So they may come around and deal with ATA.
Also, if they do, the first 717 won't be here for ABOUT A YEAR. Got that word for word from a Chief Pilot yesterday. He said it takes that long to get a program in place, FAA approval and training started. Good news is, ATA is approved to fly into just about any airport anywhere in the world. So it will go quicker than it would for other airlines.
ALL the 717's will be new airframes on the property. Yes, in addition to all the stuff we have now. SO, if this works, just about every f/o on the property today will be a captain very soon. And we will hire newbies to fill in the open seats.
And, yes, the pilot pay freeze has nothing to do with the 717 deal. It isn't a concession- it is a pay and seniority freeze for 2 years. First year guys will still get 2nd year pay when they get to their second year, and then get frozen there. The company never asked for first year guys to stay on first year pay. This pay freeze is to try to increase the cash flow, and get us over the fuel price hump. Everyone was asked for it company wide. (Well, except maybe the big wigs, but let's not go there!! he he)
Hang on to your hats, boys, this could be a wild ride!
TriStar_drvr
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2001
- Posts
- 427
There were unfilled vacancies for L-1011 FOs on the last base/status bid. Also, the Chief Pilot posting on the company website said three newhires for a May 5 class. He didn't say that there will be no more hiring for the year, although there was no mention of any more classes.
However, everything is subject to change at a moments notice. The next year could be very interesting (hopefully in a good way
)
However, everything is subject to change at a moments notice. The next year could be very interesting (hopefully in a good way
)
Thunderchief
Ultra Hog
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2003
- Posts
- 207
flyndesk
Where did you get your info on 1st year FO's going to 2nd year pay, I couldn't find that written in any of the Union letters or phone messages. It's not that I don't trust you, I just would like to hear it from the MEC. It's kinda a big pay difference, and effects a lot of ATA's pilots right now. I know they're still discussing it with management but I'd like a reassurance straight from the horses' mouth, ya know?
-TC
Where did you get your info on 1st year FO's going to 2nd year pay, I couldn't find that written in any of the Union letters or phone messages. It's not that I don't trust you, I just would like to hear it from the MEC. It's kinda a big pay difference, and effects a lot of ATA's pilots right now. I know they're still discussing it with management but I'd like a reassurance straight from the horses' mouth, ya know?
-TC
njcapt
Freak power candidate
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 1,096
Re: flyndesk
That's because there is nothing set as far as concesions, pay freezes, etc. The MEC has sent the negotiating committee to begin talks with management on those issues. I spoke personally with four of the elected reps at the MEC meeting, and the idea of coughing up anything significant to management, let alone boning the new hires with first year pay, is probably a non-starter.
The company's financial state has not changed significantly in the past ten years (according to the ALPA financial analysts) so the fact that management is spinning what, until two weeks ago was 'clear sailing' into dire financial straits, is questionable propaganda at best, and outright manipulation at worst.
Based on somewhat limited information, I see management attempting to change the fleet structure from large aircraft to a more balanced mix of large and small aircraft. My serious concern is that George plans to show us the carrot of new, additional aircraft, only to smack us with the stick later when he deals away the 737 fleet. We are stuck with extremely onerous lease terms on the 737's from the Tague era, and George serves three functions in replacing them with 717's. First, he lowers capacity with a smaller aircraft which will fit some of our smaller cities better (PIT, CLT, and off peak MSP, PHL, DEN, and LGA). Next, he gets half the pilot group on a lower payscale for the new aircraft. Lastly, he can negotiate much more reasonable lease terms with Boeing on the 717's, which Boeing is just trying to dump so they can close out the line with fewer losses.
Whatever happens, its going to be fairly ugly, since the pilot group can't seem to look beyond propaganda to get a glimpse of the truth and historical perspective.
Thunderchief said:
That's because there is nothing set as far as concesions, pay freezes, etc. The MEC has sent the negotiating committee to begin talks with management on those issues. I spoke personally with four of the elected reps at the MEC meeting, and the idea of coughing up anything significant to management, let alone boning the new hires with first year pay, is probably a non-starter.
The company's financial state has not changed significantly in the past ten years (according to the ALPA financial analysts) so the fact that management is spinning what, until two weeks ago was 'clear sailing' into dire financial straits, is questionable propaganda at best, and outright manipulation at worst.
Based on somewhat limited information, I see management attempting to change the fleet structure from large aircraft to a more balanced mix of large and small aircraft. My serious concern is that George plans to show us the carrot of new, additional aircraft, only to smack us with the stick later when he deals away the 737 fleet. We are stuck with extremely onerous lease terms on the 737's from the Tague era, and George serves three functions in replacing them with 717's. First, he lowers capacity with a smaller aircraft which will fit some of our smaller cities better (PIT, CLT, and off peak MSP, PHL, DEN, and LGA). Next, he gets half the pilot group on a lower payscale for the new aircraft. Lastly, he can negotiate much more reasonable lease terms with Boeing on the 717's, which Boeing is just trying to dump so they can close out the line with fewer losses.
Whatever happens, its going to be fairly ugly, since the pilot group can't seem to look beyond propaganda to get a glimpse of the truth and historical perspective.
Thunder:
I got my info from the MDW Regional Chief Pilot as well as one of the ALPA reps in PHX. The CP told me personally that the company's proposal was a 2 year pay and seniority freeze, with first year guys getting frozen on second year pay when they reach that year. Also, the ALPA rep in PHX said that one of the unions big issues was making sure that first year guys get frozen on second year pay. So, it sounds like both sides want that much at least. (But I doubt they admit that!!)
NJCapt:
I had also heard in the rumor mill that George could easily wet lease the 737's to companies in Europe and turn a profit. (A check airman told me that.) But, it was just that- rumor mill. All I passed on is what management (the CP) and the ALPA rep in PHX said- the 717's will be new airframes. No one will get forced out of the seat they are sitting in now. The 737 will stay in MDW to do the larger markets. The 757's would be doing military stuff (3 are already dedicated to that now) and the schedule stuff George wants to do to Europe and South America out of the midwest or wherever.
Again, these are just little pieces of a huge puzzle. More than one thing needs to fall into place for this to work. I think the big company issue is getting Boeing to finance the 717's. That is, as long as the Union can get its act together and stay in one room and be united.
IF YOU WANT IT FROM THE HORSE'S mouth.... go to the horse. Call your reps. Call the Chief Pilot. Read the proposals when they come out. Read the SEC filings of the company. Go to the Road Show next week. Go to your LEC meetings.
I got my info from the MDW Regional Chief Pilot as well as one of the ALPA reps in PHX. The CP told me personally that the company's proposal was a 2 year pay and seniority freeze, with first year guys getting frozen on second year pay when they reach that year. Also, the ALPA rep in PHX said that one of the unions big issues was making sure that first year guys get frozen on second year pay. So, it sounds like both sides want that much at least. (But I doubt they admit that!!)
NJCapt:
I had also heard in the rumor mill that George could easily wet lease the 737's to companies in Europe and turn a profit. (A check airman told me that.) But, it was just that- rumor mill. All I passed on is what management (the CP) and the ALPA rep in PHX said- the 717's will be new airframes. No one will get forced out of the seat they are sitting in now. The 737 will stay in MDW to do the larger markets. The 757's would be doing military stuff (3 are already dedicated to that now) and the schedule stuff George wants to do to Europe and South America out of the midwest or wherever.
Again, these are just little pieces of a huge puzzle. More than one thing needs to fall into place for this to work. I think the big company issue is getting Boeing to finance the 717's. That is, as long as the Union can get its act together and stay in one room and be united.
IF YOU WANT IT FROM THE HORSE'S mouth.... go to the horse. Call your reps. Call the Chief Pilot. Read the proposals when they come out. Read the SEC filings of the company. Go to the Road Show next week. Go to your LEC meetings.
the south shall rise again
If you get the 717 it probably would not get on the property for a little while since long beach only churns out one a month and I know we have a few on order and midex also. Not sure about any other orders though.
here is what the rumor is down here in hotlanta. We here that we want your company and your pilots to come up with an hourly rate to see if it comes close or beats our pay rates. So that way if the rumor is that we will be doing a hostile takeover of your company. Who knows if it is true; I do but it sounded good.
I hope all is going good for you guys up there. If you do get the 717 you will love it. Was on the 9 for three years and this a/c is pretty fancy.
If you get the 717 it probably would not get on the property for a little while since long beach only churns out one a month and I know we have a few on order and midex also. Not sure about any other orders though.
here is what the rumor is down here in hotlanta. We here that we want your company and your pilots to come up with an hourly rate to see if it comes close or beats our pay rates. So that way if the rumor is that we will be doing a hostile takeover of your company. Who knows if it is true; I do but it sounded good.
I hope all is going good for you guys up there. If you do get the 717 you will love it. Was on the 9 for three years and this a/c is pretty fancy.
FlyChicaga
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- Joined
- Mar 23, 2002
- Posts
- 862
ataopsdave
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2003
- Posts
- 272
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