ATA hopeful

[sadlmkr]

I know I'm one of many, but I applied about a month ago. A friend who is pilot there took my app in with a letter. I wondered if it can take a long time or if you usually hear pretty quick if they would be interested in you...I was commuter, then Rich International. easy now, on the l-1011, then when they closed on to the non-scheds. Kallita, Polar. Only 2 years college and not any PIC jet. Any hope? I would appreciate any info or advice. Thanks

 

[UM#1]

when I interviewed over a year ago there was one guy there that was an x-usair, coming from rich or arrow Dc8 Fo at the time. His last PIC was turboprop freight, no jet PIC. There's always hope. Did you get an application yet?

 

[sadlmkr]

Yes, I got the app and they recieved it mid Dec.

 

[b757driver]

I have been waiting 6+ months for an interview invite (type rated on two out of three aircraft they operate plus the hours as well, plus lots of international) but I know I will not get called after this amount of time. I am unemployed and therefore not "competitive" and it matters not about previous experience and quals unless you can bring something to the table.

Keep in mind that in this kind of market, the published minimum requirements are not going to get you in the door. Indeed, it's the unpublished, additional requirements that are the key. Putting two and two together, you need to have lots of PIC turbine (jet preferred but turboprop will do though not score as much obviously); you need to be current and have a flying job so any long-term unemployed (more than 6 months), you might as well forget it. And last but not least, you need a recommendation from an employee pilot - one with whom you have flown and can attest to your flying skills. If you cannot answer yes to ALL of these, then in all honesty, do not expect that call.

Sorry to sound so negative but that is the "hidden" truth - I know because I can't get on - despite my quals and experience. I would be real interested to know if any pilot in a similar position even got invited to an interview with ATA. I'd be very surprised. Clearly, they cannot interview everyone - we all meet or exceed their basic requirements, so they have to use other "tools" to sort the wheat from the chaff and it's an employers' market still. They have been hiring seasoned captains with 10,000+ hours who are current and have plenty of PIC Turbine, all of it recent into the right seat. I'm OK with that, just wish I had known that a year ago (when I was current) so that I would not have "wasted" my energy on those questions, and getting all worked up about how my background and credentials would make an ideal fit when the reality was, and still is, you have no hope! Sad but true.

I hope this reality helps others - especially those hurt by furloughs and layoffs who have not had an equal opportunity in the job market through NO fault of their own. Personally, I think an unemployed or furloughed pilot has a much harder time convincing any company that he is worth looking at let alone hiring. Just my two cents worth based on personal experiences. Knowing my luck, I will probably end up flying the exact same aircraft but with either a second-rate airline or have to go overseas where PIC Turbine and LORs, and even recency, are not major prerequisites. Market forces, I guess...again......

 

[reepicheep]

b757driver, my ATA experience mirrors yours. A year-and-a-half ago I sent in several resumes. The resumes I sent them did not break out PIC turbine in a separate category (I have 1,000). I promptly received an app., filled it out duitifully (of course on the app. they do break out turbine PIC in a separate category), and never heard from them. I know there are plenty of more competitive candidates that have recent PIC in an RJ or turboprop and as you say you're probably out of luck if you don't, no matter how much Part 121 heavy jet SIC time you have.

 

[George Zip]

Something I have heard from the guy who does the initial screening of the apps.......this told to me when there fewer (though still many) apps on file...

"I flip through them quickly, and I know in a matter of seconds if I want to look further, then they go into another pile where they get a slightly longer look. " Only after several of these filters do they actually get thoroughly read. He said you would be astounded how many of the apps have some basic details disqualify them, like sloppy handwriting, basic presentation, etc. (not alluding to you of course, just passing along for general benefit).

What they look for in answer to the essay questions also is much more subjective than total time and experience. They state repeatedly that experience is a commodity now, and they have always looked for other factors (creative problem solving, ability to get along with others and work toward positive outcomes, ability to do honest self assessments and figure out improvement)...

Hope this helps all hopefuls.

 

[reepicheep]

Good point - shoulda hired a typist!

 

[mach zero]

Bump

 

[mach zero]

I am unemployed and therefore not "competitive" and it matters not about previous experience and quals unless you can bring something to the table.

Not necessarily true...
I have a good friend who was furloughed from TWA a year and a half ago. He has not had a flying job since and got his currency before the interview in a piston single. He got hired and is in the pool waiting on a class date. What matters are the answers to the essay questions. Take your time because they carry alot of weight when it comes to an interview invite.

Mach Zero
MDW B 737 F/O

 

[rudderdog]

b757driver

If you don't mind saying...who was your previous employer?

 

[UAL-GSO]

Mach zero is correct. I was furloughed in March 2002 and sent in a resume in December 2002. I received an app. in September, 2003 and interviewed in November. I am now "in the pool". I do not have a lot of turbine pic, am not currently employed in aviation, and did not have any LORs. I don't know how they decide who gets an application, but I do know that your responses to the essay questions are critical. Best of luck to all!

FWIW - all six of us who interviewed that day were furloughed 121 guys.

 

[sadlmkr]

I'm new at this websight or any like it but am glad I signed up. I appreciate all the replies and info. I too had heard that the essays were very important so I spent alot of time on those, sure doesn't mean they were any good, but gave it my best....I guess I'll remain hopefull but hold off on looking for a place to live in Chicago.........any other places anyone suggest applying???

 

[b757driver]

Thanks for the advice guys...

I've pretty much tried everything in the past 14 months, without success.

I know all about the essay questions, I spent a week hashing them out redrafting etc. Even went to a personal career counselor to get his input. I really don't think my problem was there. I have seen these type of questions before and was able to provide diverse and non-aviation answers to them based on what I knew and was told about ATA. Also got counseling from an ATA Capt who has a side business in interviewing etc. In short, I went to town on it.

No, I did not type it. My handwriting is excellent (so I have been told many times) and I wanted to stand out from the crowd. If you have an asset, why not show it? I was also specifically told that ATA has a lot of paperwork in the cockpit and is more traditional in that respect than JB or SWA. You have a lot of writing to do - speed cards, reports, logbook etc. An application handwritten is an excellent way to show this - if the forgoing is true. Also, the instructions for the app said you could do either. I can understand that those who feel their handwriting is poor would want to get it typed and that;'s fine. But to suggest that you get filtered out because you handwrote your app is a bit much!!! Again, I don't think the "problem" was there.

I'm pleased to hear about the TWA guy. Maybe there's hope for more of us who are out of sight, out of mind.

There's not much one can do in terms of currency and updates if you are not even given the opportunity to interview and show your skills/personality. It's really Catch-22.

I'm slowly beginning to find out all these "hidden" gouges, rules, perceptions, call them what you will. I'm from the old school where things used to be black and white. A job advertised was a real job not just a pilot pool or collecting resumes for future hiring. And if you had the quals and experience, you pretty much got an interview. It was at that stage that you had to shine and made the difference between getting hired or not. Today, that has all changed. For the better? I don't know, I doubt it. As others have mentioned before me, a lot of well-qualified and nice-to-get-along-with guys have been left out to dry. Times are tough but I wish those apps would drop the we are an equal opportunity employer tag when clearly, they are anything but.. Let's call a spade a spade.

I have come to accept the rejections and that's OK because that is life and is the norm in this business. It's the not knowing having spent countless hours job hunting, networking, being the best you can be in adverse situations beyond your control.

If I was on the other side of the interview table, I would want to know what makes this guy tick, how has he managed to overcome adversities. That is a MUCH harder task than how many planes have you flown or how much Turbine PIC you have. I would want to know what kind of person is that candidate, how would he/she fit in?

Someone once said that finding a pilot job will be the most challenging thing you will ever do. I will go one better. Getting a pilot interview when you are unemployed is THE most difficult. Also, any HR specialist will tell you that a resume or even an app will only hint at one's achievements. These are all tools for pre-screening and depends on who is reading them and what they had for breakfast etc. Only an interview (short as some may be) can even begin to show off your talents. But if you are denied that chance, you are a dead duck, no matter how good you are, perceived or otherwise.


Someone please prove me wrong.....

Mach Zero

Like your friend, if I knew I was going to get an interview, I too, would get current etc. but it's not worth spending that kind of money when you know that call will not come. Besides, I was current when I originally applied they didn't vcall then and they're not calling now. I even got myself a 737NG type rating in 15 straight days a year ago (already had it on a foreign license with time) thinking it would make a difference. Wrong! If I had some incentive, some light at the end of the tunnel, I would consider anything to "look good". But I know from personal experience that it no longer makes a difference. Looks like I'll be heading overseas again to fly the same **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** aircraft and be separated from family for extended periods. I wonder how they can possibly do it like that??!!

 

[b757driver]

Rudder Dog

My previous employer was National Airlines where I accumulated 2200 hours SIC on the 757 and got the 757/767 rating. I was in the process of upgrading (almost finished IOE) when the ship sank. I quit my foreign 737NG job to come work back home and get on with the N7. I had no previous 757 time and limited (450) EFIS/glass. It looked like a great opportunity at the time. I could not have been more wrong. I could have been a 737NG Capt by now with the previous co. Ah well, you live and never stop learning.

 

[texanpilot]

"Keep in mind that in this kind of market, the published minimum requirements are not going to get you in the door. Indeed, it's the unpublished, additional requirements that are the key. Putting two and two together, you need to have lots of PIC turbine (jet preferred but turboprop will do though not score as much obviously); you need to be current and have a flying job so any long-term unemployed (more than 6 months), you might as well forget it. And last but not least, you need a recommendation from an employee pilot - one with whom you have flown and can attest to your flying skills. If you cannot answer yes to ALL of these, then in all honesty, do not expect that call."

This is not true.
Lots of PIC turbine? I think a guy in our class had 15 hours PIC turbine.
We had at least 3 furloughed pilots w/o flying jobs.
At least one in our class did not have a letter of rec.
One person in our class had 3200 hours.
Most had around 5000 hours.

 

[acbarney]

I was in the same interview group with UAL GSO, and currently swimming alongside. (Hey D! maybe they'll call Mon?...maybe not.)

I too am a long time unemployed 121 pilot..DOF 1/1/02, haven't flown anything bigger than a Pilatus since, and that only for about 60 hours well over a year ago.

I do have 1025 PIC me turbine 121, in a 1900 6 years ago.

I am typed on 5 aircraft including two of the three ATA flys, but only PIC time in the 1900 and many small pistons.

1 LOR from an ATA friend whom I've never flown with. His letter was very good and I'm sure helped immensely. Nowhere in it did he say anything about my flying abilities or that he had flown with me. I think as long as the person knows you, and the type of person you are, it doesn't matter if they have flown with you. I did bring two LORs to the interview from colleagues whom I've flown with in the past, but are not employees of ATA. Not sure if these helped or were necessary but I figured they couldn't hurt. FWIW they were not generic photocopies but specific targeted letters to ATA that I had them write the week before the interview.

I've sent hundreds of resume's to many places, some with LOR's from pilots I have flown and some without any LOR. Why did I get the interview at ATA? Your guess is as good as mine. I guess what I'm trying to say is you don't have to have all the "boxes" checked but the more you have the better.

As Jimmy V said "Don't give up, don't ever give up."