Astar

[hvydriver]

Its a shame this thread got hijacked. It is an incredible story that the Astar pilots havent had any furloughs or even downgrades and they are only flying a handful of AC. I have never heard of another pilot group's job security language in their contract hold up with these kind of reductions. Nor has any pilot group ever received a lawsuit settlement anything close to this. I know some will argue it wasnt enough but this is incredible and I hope the ABX pilots and every other pilot group that suffers furloughs do as well or better.

Thanks Mach. I think overall, we've done as much as could be done, given the circumstances.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

Its a shame this thread got hijacked.

Yes it is, but it seems to happen quite often here, more often with some than with others. Like I said, it's the internet, anybody can type something, hit "send" and it's like grandpa farting at the dinner table...there's really no way to stop him, so you just wait until he's through, then go on with your discussion.

The funny thing is that ALPA provides a web board exclusively for Astar pilots which sees a lot of action, but some of these nitwits refuse to post there because they would have to do so under their real names. Some people are just destined to live under rocks, I guess.

It is an incredible story that the Astar pilots havent had any furloughs or even downgrades and they are only flying a handful of AC. I have never heard of another pilot group's job security language in their contract hold up with these kind of reductions.

There really isn't any meaningful "job security language" that extends beyond March of 2010. What this settlement basically does is get the company to agree not to lay off anybody before that date. After that, the ball goes back to their court. Could they declare force majeur after March of 2010, dissolve Astar and dispose of the assets, then start (or acquire) another company a year-or-so later when business conditions improve? Who knows?

As you might imagine, the part of the contract that deals with these matters was very poorly written and highly favors the company (DHL). How that all came about is water under the bridge, but it's fair to say that if the pilots had been granted a "do-over" (which is basically what the lawsuit was asking for) it wouldn't pass ratification. If there's a lesson to be learned from all this, it's to RTFCx2, then cast your ballot!

Nor has any pilot group ever received a lawsuit settlement anything close to this.

To the best of my knowledge, no other pilot group has ever had to. The language in the contract that deals with all this was "somewhat unique" as far as labor contracts go (I.E., "you could drive a truck through it"), and was supposedly added to the original draft by DHL, not Astar. Why that fact alone didn't raise some red flags, we'll never know. There were a LOT of red flags being raised around that time that didn't seem to get the attention they deserved, either.

I know some will argue it wasnt enough but this is incredible and I hope the ABX pilots and every other pilot group that suffers furloughs do as well or better.

Six months salary in exchange for a 20-25 year career is a pittance. (I think Proctor & Gamble pays something like one month for every year of service) To put it into perspective, to a captain age 55, six months salary equates to less than 4% of his projected future earnings. To an F/O under 50 (who would have made captain in a few years) it's about 2-3%. That's pretty low for a company that's not in bankruptcy, not even close to bankruptcy, and that plans to continue in business without interruption using alternate sources of labor.

DHL got one HELL of a deal, IMHO.

 

[DC8CRIVER]

Yes, Jim you ARE like grandpa farting at the table. Full of hot air and what comes out really stinks. Your opinion is wrong. It is based on supposition, rumor, and spite. You simply are not worth the effort of going over every incorrect and misleading detail to debunk your accusations.

Pilots here really are smarter than you (as is evidenced by the fact that we are still employed and you are among one of a very small group of losers that have EVER been fired from Astar - a colorful group you so happily "exposed" in your earlier post).

We know what the issues are and have reacted appropriately. Name ONE airline contract that has prevented the furloughs we see today. There is no such thing as a perfect contract and of course the Monday morning quarterbacks can always punch holes through unforeseen flaws that appear after the fact. If you think you sound smart in your vain attempts at picking apart our contract, think again. You do not. Your incessant whining is clearly an attempt to throw rocks at a group of professional pilots who know how to stay awake on the job.

Stop spending your unemployment checks on internet connections and spend them on professional help. Move on. You need a life other than the one you can't have here.

 

[mxer]

Didn't you guys stop flying the 727 late last year? ABX stopped the 9 early this year. I have been on the street since January myself. Some of the 727 guys will basically get paid leave for over a year. It really sucks what is happening to each of our pilot groups, but our management is really screwing the ABX group. Unfortunately, the mother ship (DHL) isn't doing crap to help out. Good luck to all you guys!

 

[fob727]

Yes it is, but it seems to happen quite often here, more often with some than with others. Like I said, it's the internet, anybody can type something, hit "send" and it's like grandpa farting at the dinner table...there's really no way to stop him, so you just wait until he's through, then go on with your discussion.



MXER....no we haven't and thanks btw.

Jim, I wish more people would follow your example

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

You simply are not worth the effort of going over every incorrect and misleading detail to debunk your accusations.

Well then, why did you waste so much effort turning it into a personal attack? Were there any specific points about what I said that you felt were incorrect, or were you just feeling a wee-bit "gassy" this evening and needed to let some of it out before you went back to the crash pad?

Name ONE airline contract that has prevented the furloughs we see today

Here are the THREE that come immediately to mind;

• FedEx/ALPA-2006
• UPS/IPA-2007
• DHL/ALPA-1998

There may be more among the PAX/LCC guys, but I don't keep up with all of them.

Now it's your turn. Name ONE airline contract in the 75+ year history of ALPA that has PERMITTED the company to outsource all flying? (Hint - There's only ONE right answer)

There is no such thing as a perfect contract and of course the Monday morning quarterbacks can always punch holes through unforeseen flaws that appear after the fact.

The problem I have with that statement is that they didn't appear "after the fact." They were there before the contract was presented to the pilots, and before you voted on it. Were you not getting the "Contract Negotiations Updates?"

Your incessant whining is clearly an attempt to throw rocks at a group of professional pilots who know how to stay awake on the job.

I know, we just got done discussing how professional they are. I'm sure you're talking about me, personally, here, and not the 727 crew that stopped responding to ATC and almost overran SEA at FL 350, right?

(I heard that one from an ABX crewmember who was also on freq that morning...never a WORD about it around DHL, have NO idea who it was)

 

[Fly Astar Jets]

Dude, give it up. This group saved your job twice. The nail in your resume was pounded in by yourself when you totally screwed your "last chance, do or die" check ride with the fed on board. And you're sour on us????

Wake up, pour whatever it is that vexes you down the toilet, and work on getting your tickets and your life back.

 

[Mach88]

Dan,
As an objective observer you are coming off as sour grapes. The examples you mention dont compare to an airline that lost 80 or 90% of its flying and havent any any downgrades or furloughs. Sure it doesnt compare to career earnings. But if you are going to lose a a career as a pilot thats as best as Ive seen. And I know friends from Eastern, Pan AM, ATA, ABX, Midwset, and Emery. All have been screwed by an inept unethical managenement and none got anything close to this. I know none of these examples are exact but I hope the Astar example will be repeated many times in our profession. Its a step in the right direction on how to treat a furloughed pilot.
Thanks Astar for raising the bar.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

The examples you mention dont compare to an airline that lost 80 or 90% of its flying and havent any any downgrades or furloughs. Sure it doesnt compare to career earnings. But if you are going to lose a a career as a pilot thats as best as Ive seen. And I know friends from Eastern, Pan AM, ATA, ABX, Midwset, and Emery...and none got anything close to this.

Mach, the airlines you've mentioned (EAL, PAA, ATA, MDW, and Emery) are carriers that filed bankruptcy and ceased operations altogether. It's hard for former employees to argue for "Mo' money!" when a company has simply run out of it.

DHL/Astar hasn't run out of money, filed bankruptcy, nor are they planning to cease operations. By this time next year, the CVG hub will be almost as full of "big yellow airplanes" as it ever was. Most of them will be 767's flown by non-Astar crews, however.

All have been screwed by an inept unethical managenement and none got anything close to this.

Astar didn't get screwed, they got punked. Big difference. Both get shafted, but one comes away from the encounter with his honor and integrity intact, the other with a cigarette. Ask somebody who's "done time"

I know none of these examples are exact but I hope the Astar example will be repeated many times in our profession. Its a step in the right direction on how to treat a furloughed pilot.
Thanks Astar for raising the bar.

I respectfully disagree. I hope the example set by Astar will NEVER be repeated. In an employee group covered by a CBA, a furlough should be invoked only when there's a general downturn in business, and never because it's cheaper or simply more expeditious to outsource jobs. Tossing somebody cab fare home after you've just beaten and raped them is NOT an act of kindness.

I don't think DHL/Astar "raised the bar" on anything. I think they showed the world how to break a union, cheaply, and legally. But that's just my opinion. Check back in about 3 years and we'll see how everybody feels then.

 

[mxer]

Even still, cab fare and sent home with full pay for a year. Still sounds better than ABX got. Just my opinion. Better than having management trying to steal your severance. Still sucks, but the masterminds of DHL has found a way to drive away the business. It isn't just being farmed out. Its gone!

 

[fob727]

Mach, the airlines you've mentioned (EAL, PAA, ATA, MDW, and Emery) are carriers that filed bankruptcy and ceased operations altogether. It's hard for former employees to argue for "Mo' money!" when a company has simply run out of it.

DHL/Astar hasn't run out of money, filed bankruptcy, nor are they planning to cease operations. By this time next year, the CVG hub will be almost as full of "big yellow airplanes" as it ever was. Most of them will be 767's flown by non-Astar crews, however.Astar didn't get screwed, they got punked. Big difference. Both get shafted, but one comes away from the encounter with his honor and integrity intact, the other with a cigarette. Ask somebody who's "done time"I respectfully disagree. I hope the example set by Astar will NEVER be repeated. In an employee group covered by a CBA, a furlough should be invoked only when there's a general downturn in business, and never because it's cheaper or simply more expeditious to outsource jobs. Tossing somebody cab fare home after you've just beaten and raped them is NOT an act of kindness.

I don't think DHL/Astar "raised the bar" on anything. I think they showed the world how to break a union, cheaply, and legally. But that's just my opinion. Check back in about 3 years and we'll see how everybody feels then.

Jeez, was that Grandpa passing gas at the dinner table again?

 

[DC8CRIVER]

Jeez, was that Grandpa passing gas at the dinner table again?

Yup. Still stinks.

Pathetic.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

Even still, cab fare and sent home with full pay for a year. Still sounds better than ABX got. Just my opinion.

It's better than nothing. It gives guys about a year to get their financial affairs in order, which is more than ATA got. As I've said before, the full imact of this won't be felt for several years, at which time there will be some very, very bitter former Astar people out there.

Still sucks, but the masterminds of DHL has found a way to drive away the business. It isn't just being farmed out. Its gone!

To quote Ernest Gann - "Gone from where? Gone from our sight, that is all"

Most of DHL's business is still out there, and still flying. It's just flying on other carriers, mostly FedEx and UPS, that is all. If outsourcing (and furloughing) had not been an option for DHL, that business would have had no reason to leave, and DHL would have been left with some very strong incentives to re-fleet and grow domestically. I suspect that at some point, DHL would have asked for relief, and some Astar/ABX guys would have been on the street. But at least they would have remained on the property, and there would have been jobs to come back to.

Dude, give it up. This group saved your job twice.

Twice? According to R&W, it was "3 or 4 times" (or was it "5 or 6 times?" I forget) I'm only aware of once, and that was almost 10 years ago when we were still at the old/old hub. I guess it's like they say in the newspaper business, "When the legend makes for a better story than the facts, print the legend!"

It really doesn't matter whether it was once or a hundred times. Enforcing the CBA and making sure that company policy is fairly and evenly applied to it's members is what unions are paid to do. At least, that's what they're supposed to do. When they become corrupted by leadership that decides to run them like a "secret society" or "old boys club" under which only certain members jobs are protected, it's pretty much over for them as far as their credibilty or utility are concerned.

How much has ALPA spent from the general fund in the last year trying to save your job? Why is it OK for FedEx pilots (and 50,000 other ALPA members) to have to pay for your screw-up (in ratifying a flawed contract) and nobody else's?

The nail in your resume was pounded in by yourself when you totally screwed your "last chance, do or die" check ride with the fed on board.

Where do you come up with this "totally screwed" business? Were you there?

Just for the record, (and as a matter of public record, if you care to make the inquiries) the Fed isn't the one who downed the ride, it was the company. The Feds, at least, have to apply a published and fairly consistent set of standards to a check ride. Not so a company check airman, however. They can apply whatever standards they want, because it's them administering the check ride, not the FAA. They don't even have to be consistent. Remember it's them deciding whether or not you fly to their standards, not the FAA deciding whether or not you fly to FAA standards. The company decides who will be check airmen, and who will give a particular check ride. They'll always find some flunky to do their dirty work. Always.

If you really trust the company's judgement in these matters, then why, after it happened, was the training section of the CBA re-written to include the formation of a Training Review Board? To protect YOUR sorry A$$ from the same kind of BS they did to him, that's why.

Jeez, was that Grandpa passing gas at the dinner table again?

Hey dude, no taps-back. At least come up with your own similes.

 

[fob727]

It's better than nothing. It gives guys about a year to get their financial affairs in order, which is more than ATA got. As I've said before, the full imact of this won't be felt for several years, at which time there will be some very, very bitter former Astar people out there.To quote Ernest Gann - "Gone from where? Gone from our sight, that is all"

Most of DHL's business is still out there, and still flying. It's just flying on other carriers, mostly FedEx and UPS, that is all. If outsourcing (and furloughing) had not been an option for DHL, that business would have had no reason to leave, and DHL would have been left with some very strong incentives to re-fleet and grow domestically. I suspect that at some point, DHL would have asked for relief, and some Astar/ABX guys would have been on the street. But at least they would have remained on the property, and there would have been jobs to come back to. Twice? According to R&W, it was "3 or 4 times" (or was it "5 or 6 times?" I forget) I'm only aware of once, and that was almost 10 years ago when we were still at the old/old hub. I guess it's like they say in the newspaper business, "When the legend makes for a better story than the facts, print the legend!"

It really doesn't matter whether it was once or a hundred times. Enforcing the CBA and making sure that company policy is fairly and evenly applied to it's members is what unions are paid to do. At least, that's what they're supposed to do. When they become corrupted by leadership that decides to run them like a "secret society" or "old boys club" under which only certain members jobs are protected, it's pretty much over for them as far as their credibilty or utility are concerned.

How much has ALPA spent from the general fund in the last year trying to save your job? Why is it OK for FedEx pilots (and 50,000 other ALPA members) to have to pay for your screw-up (in ratifying a flawed contract) and nobody else's? Where do you come up with this "totally screwed" business? Were you there?

Just for the record, (and as a matter of public record, if you care to make the inquiries) the Fed isn't the one who downed the ride, it was the company. The Feds, at least, have to apply a published and fairly consistent set of standards to a check ride. Not so a company check airman, however. They can apply whatever standards they want, because it's them administering the check ride, not the FAA. They don't even have to be consistent. Remember it's them deciding whether or not you fly to their standards, not the FAA deciding whether or not you fly to FAA standards. The company decides who will be check airmen, and who will give a particular check ride. They'll always find some flunky to do their dirty work. Always.

If you really trust the company's judgement in these matters, then why, after it happened, was the training section of the CBA re-written to include the formation of a Training Review Board? To protect YOUR sorry A$$ from the same kind of BS they did to him, that's why. Hey dude, no taps-back. At least come up with your own similes.

Same tired Sh#t. See ya Dan, I mean Jim

 

[eight8kcabpilot]

Jim,
The FAA (Walt) failed you on your last chance, in the airplane - not the company check airman.