Astar

[SiouxMD11]

Just curious, with all the ABX news today. Are all Astar pilots still on payroll? I see no furloughs. And 500 pilots for like 15 airplanes. What gives? Are they still contracting with DHL?

 

[Fly Astar Jets]

Just curious, with all the ABX news today. Are all Astar pilots still on payroll? I see no furloughs. And 500 pilots for like 15 airplanes. What gives? Are they still contracting with DHL?

Not sure what you're referring to when you say "all the news". The only thing I've seen come over the wire is the announced finalization of the lease rates for debt forgiveness deal of which the particulars have been known for some time now. Is there something else??

There are no furloughs at AStar and will not be until next year. Yes we are still under ACMI with DHL.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

Just curious, with all the ABX news today. Are all Astar pilots still on payroll? I see no furloughs. And 500 pilots for like 15 airplanes. What gives? Are they still contracting with DHL?

500 for 15 is about right. The company has a contractual obligation not to furlough before March of 2010. However, the same contract also contains a force majeure clause that allows them to walk away from ALL their obligations under the contract in the event that DHL reduces the need for their services, which they obviously have.

The company would like to settle (for pennies on the dollar, of course) but because there's NO language in the contract covering severance or early termination, they're under no obligation to do so. So for the time being at least, they're paying guys to sit.

Bottom line - Pilots know they're getting screwed, but don't want to rock the boat while they're still collecting a paycheck. DHL knows they're getting screwed too, but doesn't want to rock the boat until they've finalized a deal with ABX for 767's.

 

[Fly Astar Jets]

500 for 15 is about right. The company has a contractual obligation not to furlough before March of 2010. However, the same contract also contains a force majeure clause that allows them to walk away from ALL their obligations under the contract in the event that DHL reduces the need for their services, which they obviously have.

The company would like to settle (for pennies on the dollar, of course) but because there's NO language in the contract covering severance or early termination, they're under no obligation to do so. So for the time being at least, they're paying guys to sit.

Bottom line - Pilots know they're getting screwed, but don't want to rock the boat while they're still collecting a paycheck. DHL knows they're getting screwed too, but doesn't want to rock the boat until they've finalized a deal with ABX for 767's.

Dude, you are so a day late and a dollar short. Did you not get the Fastread??

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

Dude, you are so a day late and a dollar short. Did you not get the Fastread??

I read it right after I made the above post. Rather than edit mine, I'll leave it intact, so that your response will make sense to anybody who reads it later.

From the May 29, 2009 ALPA Fastread -

"ALPA was able to reach an agreement with DHL that would keep all of the ASTAR pilots hired prior to March 2008 on the payroll at least through March 2010.

DHL agreed to honor the no-furlough clause in the pilots’ existing contract signed between ALPA and ASTAR in March 2008. The settlement also ensures every protected pilot their current pay status through March 2010 or for six months after they stop flying, whichever is longer."


In other words, all they're agreeing to is 1) not to invoke force majeure before March, 2010, and 2) to pay 6 months severance to any pilot still flying after October of 2009. Not enough, IMHO, but probably the best that could be expected under the circumstances. Had the MEC stood fast on scope, none of it would have been necessary.

For the record, my second paragraph should have read;

"Astar pilots have agreed to managements offer of settlement, which factored over the life of the contract, their ages, career expectations, and projected remaining years of service, will amount to a few pennies on the dollar."

 

[Fly Astar Jets]

For the record, my second paragraph should have read;

"Astar pilots have agreed to managements offer of settlement, which factored over the life of the contract, their ages, career expectations, and projected remaining years of service, will amount to a few pennies on the dollar."

Well aren't you the whiny little biatch.

Pennies on the dollar of nothing equals nothing for you.

 

[DC8CRIVER]

I read it right after I made the above post.

Well, aren't you the clever little (well ... fat little) rodent. Your boarish rantings celebrating your delusional exuberance over what you continuously misconstrue as our failings have grown far too tiresome. Give it up already. Bashing your former coworkers really won't make you feel better. You are always wrong and you will never again have the true understanding about what goes on here.

Stop pretending.

Get a life.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

Well, aren't you the clever little (well ... fat little) rodent. Your boarish rantings celebrating your delusional exuberance over what you continuously misconstrue as our failings have grown far too tiresome. Give it up already. Bashing your former coworkers really won't make you feel better. You are always wrong and you will never again have the true understanding about what goes on here.

I'm no doctor, but I think you may be evidencing the early stages of "The Frasier Syndrome," a disease wherin the victim's mind is slowly taken over by the personage of actor Kelsey Grammer.

I'd put down the remote and get that checked out if I were you.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

Well aren't you the whiny little biatch.

Pennies on the dollar of nothing equals nothing for you.

nice post. Way to go, Astar!

Gee, I just can't imagine why nobody else in the business has stepped up to offer you preferential interviews

 

[hvydriver]

nice post. Way to go, Astar!

Gee, I just can't imagine why nobody else in the business has stepped up to offer you preferential interviews

ROFLMAO! Here's an idea. 'Cause everyone has either furloughed or is thinking about furloughing. Did you ever get enough time to get your certificates back?

 

[Fly Astar Jets]

nice post. Way to go, Astar!

Gee, I just can't imagine why nobody else in the business has stepped up to offer you preferential interviews

I stand by every word of my post.

The fact of matter is you're a screw up. This pilot group fought and gave up bits of its contract to save your job. And you thanked us how?? By screwing up again, and we still managed to keep you on the property. Your name is excised from the seniority list by your own doing. So, for your own good and the good of those around you, quit being the pissy little girl and get on with your life.

By the way, here is a news flash for ya. Since no one has been furloughed, the "need" for any carrier to offer preferential interviews is moot. I'm just say'en.

FAJ

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

I stand by every word of my post.

As do I.

This pilot group fought and gave up bits of its contract to save your job. And you thanked us how?? By screwing up again, and we still managed to keep you on the property. Your name is excised from the seniority list by your own doing. So, for your own good and the good of those around you, quit being the pissy little girl and get on with your life.

I've said this before, but knowing your attention span, I feel the need to say it again;

If you feel that your union has given up ANYTHING to save ANYBODY'S job, you should RUN, not walk, to the nearest labor attorney and file a breach-of-fair-representation suit. You'll win, probably even before it reaches trial, because giving up ANY part of a hard-won contract to save one job is one of the most egregious errors a contract administrator can commit. If you think that ALPA would risk decertification and AL (or KF before him) disbarment to save the job of a "screw up" then you obviously don't know either one of them or the system very well.

Stop listening to Whirly-boy and FODC-8. They don't know WTF they're talking about, and as long as you parrot what they say, you won't either.

Now, where do you get the notion that this union "fought" for somebody's job out of the goodness of their heart? We all PAY for our representation (and captains pay the most), initially to negotiate a contract, and then to ENFORCE that contract. If you feel that representation is not needed or that in matters brought to grievance the company is always "right," then you should de-certify your union and pocket your 2 1/4%. Don't worry, you'll be safe. Daz and The Scab can be counted upon to treat you honestly and fairly - they have up until now, havent they?

In System Board, or "fighting to get jobs back," the company bears the burdon of proving that the discharge was proper. However, they also have access to the best attorneys, backed-up by records of your attendance and job-performance since the day you started ground school, supported by the testimony of managers whose job it is to present ONLY evidence supporting the company's position and no other. The company has almost unlimited resources at their disposal, while the employee has "only" the union lawyer and the facts. Usually, that's all he or she needs. When an employee prevails at system board, you can pretty much bet your a$$ it's because the company screwed up, not the employee.

The fact of matter is you're a screw up.

Anybody can call anybody anything on the internet, it proves nothing. I'll go with the hard evidence every time, and if you want to talk about documented "screw-ups" at Astar, we're gonna be here a looooooong time. For example;

The Astar pilots (there are several) who've had tail strikes in the last couple months. C'mon guys, it's not like these airplanes haven't been on the property for the last 16 years. Are they longer now than they were in 1993, or is the runway higher?

The recent rash of thefts from the crew storage room. Personal items, mostly, but stealing is stealing, except when it's one crewmember stealing from another. Then it's worse. The thief (or thieves) is probably the same guy who totaled anothr pilots car in the long-term parking lot and skipped without leaving a note. I don't think you can blame that one on "Jim," although I'm sure you'll try.

The Astar pilot who dead-sticked a perfectly good King Air into a Tennessee parking lot. At least he showed good judgement by running it out of gas before he crashed it, so there would be no fire.

The pilots who got the GNE going into Europe. The company was pretty hush-hush about who it was, maybe because the captain was a check-airman and the F/O was a former F/E check-airman. Each had to omit at least 10 FAR- and GOM-required procedures in order for the GNE to occur, yet the captain kept his C-A authorization. Su-weeet!

Of course, maybe our Chief Pilot was more sympathetic to GNE's than most, since he'd had a rather spectacular one himself. One that got he, his 238 passengers, and his company's DC-8 "escorted" down through Iraqi airspace (where it wasn't supposed to be) to a 7-day, no-expenses paid visit to Bagdad. "It was all due to a technical problem, compounded by my weak co-pilot" he said at the time. Great leaders are usually great delegators, and in true form, ours delegated the blame to his new F/O. Ya gotta respect a guy who takes ownership of a problem!

Here's a good one! The captain who got drunk at the crash pad, leveled a loaded 9mm pistol at another Astar pilot's belly, and squeezed the trigger. My wife knew one of the flight nurses involved in the Medevac, said that by the time they lifted him out of the chopper, he had NO vital signs, was clinically DEAD. Eventually, he made a full recovery...minus a spleen and part of his liver. No administrative action ever taken against the shooter, despite a finding of guilty in criminal court. He's still flying at Astar, which is surprising, since the same Captain allegedly grazed his wife's thigh a few years before with a .44 Magnum. No problems with "maturity" or "judgement" there, is there?

The captain who was arrested in a local park for "making improper advances towards a child" and "having improper physical contact" with one of the children playing there. TTBOMK, NO administrative action was taken against him by the company or ALPA, and he went on to retirement a few years later. I'll be watching for him on "To Catch a Predator"

The list goes on forever...guys flying on waivers for multiple DUI's or drug problems, a couple of convicted wife-beaters, one (since departed) who lost his wallet (and certificates) TWICE to hookers while on weekend layovers, the captain (and C/A) who side-slips DC-8's into MIA (when he's not boffing one of his fellow pilots wives). We've had TWO pilots who've had DUI accidents (one with serious injuries) while driving company vehicles on company business. They're all still there.

Now, you want to talk about "screw-ups," have at it. But this better be good!

By the way, here is a news flash for ya. Since no one has been furloughed, the "need" for any carrier to offer preferential interviews is moot. I'm just say'en.

"Need" or no, the Astar MEC asked Bob Miller at UPS for support, and he quietly demurred. There were discrete inquiries made of other carriers which also brought no result, other than a "good luck, guys!" from their respective MEC's. I don't know what they're thinking or why they've ignored Astar's requests, but most of them seem to have a strong sense of unity and comradeship among their members, something that is clearly lacking here. I can't help but think that the fact that Astar failed to support their own (specifically, DB) has factored into their decision not to press for preferential interviews.

 

[ABXbooger]

I don't know who is right or wrong here, but that was an entertaining post!

 

[b707guy]

Funny thing is, most of those bits of dirty laundry sound eerily familiar, and I've never worked for Astar/DHL Airways.... It doesn't matter what company we work for, we all have our own characters, ghosts, legends, jesters, you name it, to enjoy, berate, emulate, etc!

 

[Airbus300]

I am going to try to resolve this personal dispute that everyone has against Whistlin Dan.... The Astar guys don't like it when you keep bashing the company. We can see and understand a UPS or Fedex guy bashing Astar constantly, but get irritated to have one of our own do it. Now the story I heard is that you didn't call and didn't show several times. If that is true, was it medically based; or you didn't care, or what? As for the tail strikes, I will take your word for it. (I haven't heard about it.) You must talk to someone on the inside frequently... The guy who crashed the king air, I believe was fired from Astar for self releasing while on hot reserve. I heard about the crashpad shooting... All entertaining stories...

As do I.I've said this before, but knowing your attention span, I feel the need to say it again;

If you feel that your union has given up ANYTHING to save ANYBODY'S job, you should RUN, not walk, to the nearest labor attorney and file a breach-of-fair-representation suit. You'll win, probably even before it reaches trial, because giving up ANY part of a hard-won contract to save one job is one of the most egregious errors a contract administrator can commit. If you think that ALPA would risk decertification and AL (or KF before him) disbarment to save the job of a "screw up" then you obviously don't know either one of them or the system very well.

Stop listening to Whirly-boy and FODC-8. They don't know WTF they're talking about, and as long as you parrot what they say, you won't either.

Now, where do you get the notion that this union "fought" for somebody's job out of the goodness of their heart? We all PAY for our representation (and captains pay the most), initially to negotiate a contract, and then to ENFORCE that contract. If you feel that representation is not needed or that in matters brought to grievance the company is always "right," then you should de-certify your union and pocket your 2 1/4%. Don't worry, you'll be safe. Daz and The Scab can be counted upon to treat you honestly and fairly - they have up until now, havent they?

In System Board, or "fighting to get jobs back," the company bears the burdon of proving that the discharge was proper. However, they also have access to the best attorneys, backed-up by records of your attendance and job-performance since the day you started ground school, supported by the testimony of managers whose job it is to present ONLY evidence supporting the company's position and no other. The company has almost unlimited resources at their disposal, while the employee has "only" the union lawyer and the facts. Usually, that's all he or she needs. When an employee prevails at system board, you can pretty much bet your a$$ it's because the company screwed up, not the employee.Anybody can call anybody anything on the internet, it proves nothing. I'll go with the hard evidence every time, and if you want to talk about documented "screw-ups" at Astar, we're gonna be here a looooooong time. For example;

The Astar pilots (there are several) who've had tail strikes in the last couple months. C'mon guys, it's not like these airplanes haven't been on the property for the last 16 years. Are they longer now than they were in 1993, or is the runway higher?

The recent rash of thefts from the crew storage room. Personal items, mostly, but stealing is stealing, except when it's one crewmember stealing from another. Then it's worse. The thief (or thieves) is probably the same guy who totaled anothr pilots car in the long-term parking lot and skipped without leaving a note. I don't think you can blame that one on "Jim," although I'm sure you'll try.

The Astar pilot who dead-sticked a perfectly good King Air into a Tennessee parking lot. At least he showed good judgement by running it out of gas before he crashed it, so there would be no fire.

The pilots who got the GNE going into Europe. The company was pretty hush-hush about who it was, maybe because the captain was a check-airman and the F/O was a former F/E check-airman. Each had to omit at least 10 FAR- and GOM-required procedures in order for the GNE to occur, yet the captain kept his C-A authorization. Su-weeet!

Of course, maybe our Chief Pilot was more sympathetic to GNE's than most, since he'd had a rather spectacular one himself. One that got he, his 238 passengers, and his company's DC-8 "escorted" down through Iraqi airspace (where it wasn't supposed to be) to a 7-day, no-expenses paid visit to Bagdad. "It was all due to a technical problem, compounded by my weak co-pilot" he said at the time. Great leaders are usually great delegators, and in true form, ours delegated the blame to his new F/O. Ya gotta respect a guy who takes ownership of a problem!

Here's a good one! The captain who got drunk at the crash pad, leveled a loaded 9mm pistol at another Astar pilot's belly, and squeezed the trigger. My wife knew one of the flight nurses involved in the Medevac, said that by the time they lifted him out of the chopper, he had NO vital signs, was clinically DEAD. Eventually, he made a full recovery...minus a spleen and part of his liver. No administrative action ever taken against the shooter, despite a finding of guilty in criminal court. He's still flying at Astar, which is surprising, since the same Captain allegedly grazed his wife's thigh a few years before with a .44 Magnum. No problems with "maturity" or "judgement" there, is there?

The captain who was arrested in a local park for "making improper advances towards a child" and "having improper physical contact" with one of the children playing there. TTBOMK, NO administrative action was taken against him by the company or ALPA, and he went on to retirement a few years later. I'll be watching for him on "To Catch a Predator"

The list goes on forever...guys flying on waivers for multiple DUI's or drug problems, a couple of convicted wife-beaters, one (since departed) who lost his wallet (and certificates) TWICE to hookers while on weekend layovers, the captain (and C/A) who side-slips DC-8's into MIA (when he's not boffing one of his fellow pilots wives). We've had TWO pilots who've had DUI accidents (one with serious injuries) while driving company vehicles on company business. They're all still there.

Now, you want to talk about "screw-ups," have at it. But this better be good!"Need" or no, the Astar MEC asked Bob Miller at UPS for support, and he quietly demurred. There were discrete inquiries made of other carriers which also brought no result, other than a "good luck, guys!" from their respective MEC's. I don't know what they're thinking or why they've ignored Astar's requests, but most of them seem to have a strong sense of unity and comradeship among their members, something that is clearly lacking here. I can't help but think that the fact that Astar failed to support their own (specifically, DB) has factored into their decision not to press for preferential interviews.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

Funny thing is, most of those bits of dirty laundry sound eerily familiar, and I've never worked for Astar/DHL Airways.... It doesn't matter what company we work for, we all have our own characters, ghosts, legends, jesters, you name it, to enjoy, berate, emulate, etc!

The point is, b707guy, that they're around EVERY airline. Even Brown and Purple have had a few in the news as of late, and their selection and hiring process is as demanding as any. The difference is that some Astar pilots seem to be determined to make "big things out of little things," nothings out of big things, and to blindly support management's assessment of disciplinary matters without applying one iota of critical thinking to the circumstances surrounding the incident. "Pete says it, so it must be true"

Critical thinking is defined as "purposeful and reflective judgment about what to believe or what to do in response to observations, experience, verbal or written expressions, or arguments" Lacking any capacity for critical thinking is what makes fish so easy to catch. Fish never say, "Hey, what's an earthworm doing out here in the middle of this lake?" They just bite on it, and get reeled in.

IMHO, lack of critical thinking by many Astar pilots played a huge part in the forthcoming loss of their jobs, along with those of so many others. Nobody said to management, "I want to believe you, but first I'll need to check this out for myself" They were far too cozy and far too trusting of senior management. Management, seeing an opportunity to exploit that trust, took a hook, baited it with a worm (about one month's salary) and dropped it into the water where Astar pilots were known to feed. The rest is (or will shortly be) history.

It's human nature to want to believe that our leaders are competent, just, and fair. We want to believe in their honesty and benevolence, even when we're confronted with evidence that they're none of the above. But we should never forget that at the end of the day, one of us will be sitting around the campfire, and the other will be in the frying pan. Who ends up where will depend upon who asks the best questions.

In my previous post, I meant no personal affront to most of the individuals involved. Most, but not all, are generally decent people and capable pilots. A few are "toxic crewmembers" and mega-turds, but Astar is no different from any other carrier in having a few on the seniority list. (You can tell pretty easily by the tone and content of their posts who they are) The point was and is, that if we're going to talk about "screw ups" it will be in the context of the entire organization, not by the accusations of a few "nameless" individuals with personal axes to grind or agendas to promote.

Frankly, I think there are more pressing issues to discuss, like "Where do we go from here?"

"If There Is No Enemy Within, the Enemy Without Can Do You No Harm."

 

[rotor&wing]

Jim,

Your stories are amusing but in your typical fashion "exaggerated" to meet your end. What you failed to also include was your record, still unbroken btw for the highest number of crew sick calls when crewmembers saw they were paired up with you for a trip. Also you left out the story of your FO having to take the plane away from you as you were getting the stick shaker at altitude while attempting to hand fly the airplane, as well as the other accounts of FO's taking the plane from you.

You continue to live in a fantasy world. The FAA did everyone a huge favor by revoking all your pilot certificates.

You remind me of the kid's game "whack-a-mole", your balding red head keeps popping up just long enough for someone to take a mallet to it.

Back in your hole now.

 

[rotor&wing]

A few are "toxic crewmembers" and mega-turds, but Astar is no different from any other carrier in having a few on the seniority list. (You can tell pretty easily by the tone and content of their posts who they are) The point was and is, that if we're going to talk about "screw ups" it will be in the context of the entire organization, not by the accusations of a few "nameless" individuals with personal axes to grind or agendas to promote.

You were at the top of the list in your time Jim. And speaking of "nameless" individuals with a personal axe to grind, "et tu Jim?"

 

[fob727]

personal axes to grind or agendas to promote???

That's the pot calling the kettle black.....
You haven't been involved with Astar since 04 or early 05.

 

[Mach88]

Its a shame this thread got hijacked. It is an incredible story that the Astar pilots havent had any furloughs or even downgrades and they are only flying a handful of AC. I have never heard of another pilot group's job security language in their contract hold up with these kind of reductions. Nor has any pilot group ever received a lawsuit settlement anything close to this. I know some will argue it wasnt enough but this is incredible and I hope the ABX pilots and every other pilot group that suffers furloughs do as well or better.