Asiana 777 crashed on landing at SFO

[okcplt]

This happens all the time. look at the American crash in 2001 when the crew broke the verticle stabilizer off of the fuselage by stomping on the rudder.

Complete Pilot error...

I was in the NAVY and we are well trained pilots. The joke amongst ourselves is that we are only a half a step away
from ********************ing up the works...

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Dumb Pilot,

your (ironic) comment actually goes pretty deep. I hold both an FAA and JAR/EASA ATP and the differences between flying here in the US and in Europe couldn't be greater. When I worked contract over in the UK, I was exposed to the typical British "we're better than the Yanks" bashing but was horrified about basic piloting skills. Without going too much into detail, it was much easier to fail your checkride, line check etc. by NOT using the proper radio telephony procedures than showing mediocre flying skills. Some high time F/Os I was flying with got quite nervous when I asked them to handfly on a clear day. On my last check I had a somewhat heated discussion with one of the training captains, and he pointed out that the accident rate is not any higher in Europe and that it would be lower in the US if pilots would be more "procedural" and wouldn't "cowboy" the airplane around.

Food for thought. Accidents do not necessarily reflect a certain safety (or lack of) culture. But his comment got me thinking.

I understand what you are saying, I have flown with pilots from all corners of this planet, that is why I find it ridiculous when somebody claims that the solution is to have a western pilot in the cockpit! The simple truth is that there are good and bad airman in every continent, I'm not saying that culture did not play a part in all of this, what I'm saying is that the erosion of flying skills due to over dependence in automation is affecting all pilots equally, regardless of where in the world they come from, I am a firm believer that the first 3,000 hours of a pilots life at the controls should be in as basic an A/C as it gets, that is what creates the foundation of your airmanship, the PTF schemes that are popping up all over the world are damaging this career and we saw it with our own (PFT as we call it) scheme here in the US, when you get individuals coming to the US for a license and going back to their countries to occupy the right seat of a 767 or 777 with a grand total of 300 hours, that is the environment that is creating these lack of airmanship issues. Airline training today is about creating automatons, more importance is placed on calls and timing of the scripted procedures during the sim evals than in high altitude stalls recovery techniques, the manufacturers are driven to create more levels of automation modes design to slowly drive the problem (pilot) out of the cockpit. But many of the accidents recently have shown that going back the the very basic concept of "pitch and power" and "stick and rudder" have evolved into fatal crashes. We have to start focusing into nurturing airmanship before a pilot is placed into a highly automated cockpit and stop this ridiculous assertion that good and bad pilots are based on where they come from.

 

[waveflyer]

Well said. This is a global issue- and 1/2 the modern jet pilots in the US better start clicking everything off more than they currently do.

I understand what you are saying, I have flown with pilots from all corners of this planet, that is why I find it ridiculous when somebody claims that the solution is to have a western pilot in the cockpit! The simple truth is that there are good and bad airman in every continent, I'm not saying that culture did not play a part in all of this, what I'm saying is that the erosion of flying skills due to over dependence in automation is affecting all pilots equally, regardless of where in the world they come from, I am a firm believer that the first 3,000 hours of a pilots life at the controls should be in as basic an A/C as it gets, that is what creates the foundation of your airmanship, the PTF schemes that are popping up all over the world are damaging this career and we saw it with our own (PFT as we call it) scheme here in the US, when you get individuals coming to the US for a license and going back to their countries to occupy the right seat of a 767 or 777 with a grand total of 300 hours, that is the environment that is creating these lack of airmanship issues. Airline training today is about creating automatons, more importance is placed on calls and timing of the scripted procedures during the sim evals than in high altitude stalls recovery techniques, the manufacturers are driven to create more levels of automation modes design to slowly drive the problem (pilot) out of the cockpit. But many of the accidents recently have shown that going back the the very basic concept of "pitch and power" and "stick and rudder" have evolved into fatal crashes. We have to start focusing into nurturing airmanship before a pilot is placed into a highly automated cockpit and stop this ridiculous assertion that good and bad pilots are based on where they come from.

 

[waveflyer]

Yah, for most of us who have a little pride in basic "seat of the pants" manual flying airmanship. When I was flying both left and right seat in the 767 I enjoyed the automated stuff, but I also loved clicking off everything and hand flying it to landing also!

The problem many of these carriers will now have to confront is the abandonment of the basics of flying skills and the dependance on the automation of these new birds.

"...now confront..."

We've needed to confront this long ago
.American put this out in the 90's

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3kREPMzMLk

Worth watching again. (I've watched it a couple 3 times since somebody posted it on FI)

To me though its deeper. Pilots are advocating a practice of basic airmanship- the rational ones anyway. What we need to recognize is there's a huge push toward single pilot and eventually pilotless airplanes. In the near future, there is a huge push for ab initio/MPL programs designed to put low time automation managers in the flight deck, instead of pure flyers. The powers that be cannot achieve these objectives if the solution doesn't lay in better technology. They cannot achieve that if we make a concerted effort to get back to basic of human pilots flying.

 

[Dornier 335]

link

Asiana 777 pilot assumed autothrottles engaged until seconds before impact

As US investigators interviewed the pilots of Asiana flight 214, a new picture emerged of a confused and chaotic situation inside the cockpit in the last 16sec before the Boeing 777-200ER's main landing gear caught the lip of the sea wall on the runway threshold at the San Francisco airport.
The captain flying, identified by Asiana as Lee Gang Guk, and the captain instructor, Lee Jeong-min, realized as they passed 4,000ft on approach to Runway 28 Left that they were "slightly high", says Deborah Hersman, chairman of the National Transportation Safety Board.
At that point, the crew set the vertical speed mode on the visual approach at about 1,500ft per minute, she says. But that descent rate brought the 777 down too fast.
As they passed 500ft, Lee Jeong-min, who was making his debut flight as a 777 instructor, noticed the three glowing red lights on the airport's precision approach path indicator that signaled they were slightly too low, Hersman says the captain told the NTSB.
The instructor told the captain flying to pull-up, Hersman says. At roughly the same time, the aircraft yawed off the centreline, forcing the crew the to make a quick series of corrections in two directions.
"They were making corrections vertically because they knew they were too low," Hersman says, "and they are making lateral corrections to line up on the centreline."
Amidst this burst of activity, both crew members lost track of the aircraft's perilously slowing speed, with the aircraft climbing slightly to regain altitude and the engines stuck on idle. At least one of the crewmembers, Lee Jeong-min, believed he was under a fatal misapprehension.
"They had set speed at 137kt (254km/h) and he assumed the autothrottles were maintaining speed," Hersman says, based on the interview with Lee Jeong-min.
But the automatic speed protection system, for reasons that are still unclear, did not maintain the aircraft at 137kt.
"He went to push the [throttles] forward, but he stated that the other pilot had already pushed the throttles forward," Hersman says.
Unfortunately, it was already too late. The aircraft slowed to a low speed of 103kt, then accelerated to 112kt as the nose crossed the threshold of the runway. But the 777 was still too low and the main landing gear clipped the edge of the sea wall separating Runway 28 Left from San Francisco Bay. That caused the aircraft to sink further and the tail to strike the runway, ripping Section 47/48 aft of the pressure bulkhead off the airframe.
The pilots reported seeing the aircraft "balloon" upward, yaw left and spin in a 360 degree circle as the aircraft crashed down on the runway again. The collision tore open an oil tank on the No. 2 engine, igniting a fire that eventually would burn through the upper section of the forward fuselage.
Remarkably, the crash killed only two people, but injured more than 180, including several critically.
The NTSB is now working to solve a number of puzzles related to the crash, especially why the autothrottles did not perform in the manner that the crew expected.
After the crash, the NTSB entered the cockpit and found the autothrottles in the armed position, Hersman says. Her investigators are now verifying that discovery with the flight data recorder. If he recorder corroborates the on-scene finding, the NTSB will then explore how the autothrottles function in different operational modes.
"Armed means that they are available to be engaged, but depending on what mode is used we really need to understand that a little better," Hersman says.
The NTSB also is making inquiries with the US Federal Aviation Administration about the how air traffic on approach to Runway 28 Left has been managed since 1 June, when airport officials deactivated the glideslope indicator for three months to complete a construction project at the other end of the runway.
"They are asking for this information because it provides us some baseline information and they can identify trends," she says.
A new concern has appeared about the aircraft's crashworthiness. Crew members and witnesses have reported that at least one of the escape slides deployed within the aircraft, trapping one flight attendant until it was removed by the relief first officer, Hersman says.
The NTSB also is interested in possible human factors related to the backgrounds and experience levels of both the captain flying and the captain instructor.
Lee Gang Guk's 43h of flying time in the 777 has been well documented, but Hersman also revealed that he had been flying Airbus A320s for eight years until only a few months ago.
"Immediately prior to his initial operating experience on the 777 he was flying as a captain on the A320," she says.

 

[Flyer1015]

Well finally her face time is over. Probably made enough head way to be the next Sec of DOT, since her private lobbying wasn't working.

The integrity of the investigation? Totally trashed.

 

[Flyer1015]

"...now confront..."

We've needed to confront this long ago
.American put this out in the 90's

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3kREPMzMLk

Worth watching again. (I've watched it a couple 3 times since somebody posted it on FI)

To me though its deeper. Pilots are advocating a practice of basic airmanship- the rational ones anyway. What we need to recognize is there's a huge push toward single pilot and eventually pilotless airplanes. In the near future, there is a huge push for ab initio/MPL programs designed to put low time automation managers in the flight deck, instead of pure flyers. The powers that be cannot achieve these objectives if the solution doesn't lay in better technology. They cannot achieve that if we make a concerted effort to get back to basic of human pilots flying.

That was a good video. But wasn't this the guy who wrote the AAMP? It talked about rudder use at high AOA as if transport category aircraft behaved like F4 fighter jets. I know the NTSB had some harsh words for the AAMP.

 

[filejw]

link

Asiana 777 pilot assumed autothrottles engaged until seconds before impact

As US investigators interviewed the pilots of Asiana flight 214, a new picture emerged of a confused and chaotic situation inside the cockpit in the last 16sec before the Boeing 777-200ER's main landing gear caught the lip of the sea wall on the runway threshold at the San Francisco airport.
The captain flying, identified by Asiana as Lee Gang Guk, and the captain instructor, Lee Jeong-min, realized as they passed 4,000ft on approach to Runway 28 Left that they were "slightly high", says Deborah Hersman, chairman of the National Transportation Safety Board.
At that point, the crew set the vertical speed mode on the visual approach at about 1,500ft per minute, she says. But that descent rate brought the 777 down too fast.
As they passed 500ft, Lee Jeong-min, who was making his debut flight as a 777 instructor, noticed the three glowing red lights on the airport's precision approach path indicator that signaled they were slightly too low, Hersman says the captain told the NTSB.
The instructor told the captain flying to pull-up, Hersman says. At roughly the same time, the aircraft yawed off the centreline, forcing the crew the to make a quick series of corrections in two directions.
"They were making corrections vertically because they knew they were too low," Hersman says, "and they are making lateral corrections to line up on the centreline."
Amidst this burst of activity, both crew members lost track of the aircraft's perilously slowing speed, with the aircraft climbing slightly to regain altitude and the engines stuck on idle. At least one of the crewmembers, Lee Jeong-min, believed he was under a fatal misapprehension.
"They had set speed at 137kt (254km/h) and he assumed the autothrottles were maintaining speed," Hersman says, based on the interview with Lee Jeong-min.
But the automatic speed protection system, for reasons that are still unclear, did not maintain the aircraft at 137kt.
"He went to push the [throttles] forward, but he stated that the other pilot had already pushed the throttles forward," Hersman says.
Unfortunately, it was already too late. The aircraft slowed to a low speed of 103kt, then accelerated to 112kt as the nose crossed the threshold of the runway. But the 777 was still too low and the main landing gear clipped the edge of the sea wall separating Runway 28 Left from San Francisco Bay. That caused the aircraft to sink further and the tail to strike the runway, ripping Section 47/48 aft of the pressure bulkhead off the airframe.
The pilots reported seeing the aircraft "balloon" upward, yaw left and spin in a 360 degree circle as the aircraft crashed down on the runway again. The collision tore open an oil tank on the No. 2 engine, igniting a fire that eventually would burn through the upper section of the forward fuselage.
Remarkably, the crash killed only two people, but injured more than 180, including several critically.
The NTSB is now working to solve a number of puzzles related to the crash, especially why the autothrottles did not perform in the manner that the crew expected.
After the crash, the NTSB entered the cockpit and found the autothrottles in the armed position, Hersman says. Her investigators are now verifying that discovery with the flight data recorder. If he recorder corroborates the on-scene finding, the NTSB will then explore how the autothrottles function in different operational modes.
"Armed means that they are available to be engaged, but depending on what mode is used we really need to understand that a little better," Hersman says.
The NTSB also is making inquiries with the US Federal Aviation Administration about the how air traffic on approach to Runway 28 Left has been managed since 1 June, when airport officials deactivated the glideslope indicator for three months to complete a construction project at the other end of the runway.
"They are asking for this information because it provides us some baseline information and they can identify trends," she says.
A new concern has appeared about the aircraft's crashworthiness. Crew members and witnesses have reported that at least one of the escape slides deployed within the aircraft, trapping one flight attendant until it was removed by the relief first officer, Hersman says.
The NTSB also is interested in possible human factors related to the backgrounds and experience levels of both the captain flying and the captain instructor.
Lee Gang Guk's 43h of flying time in the 777 has been well documented, but Hersman also revealed that he had been flying Airbus A320s for eight years until only a few months ago.
"Immediately prior to his initial operating experience on the 777 he was flying as a captain on the A320," she says.

So basically these guys admit to being able to do only one thing at a time. Plus no protection in V/S what a surprise.

 

[Flyer1015]

So basically these guys admit to being able to do only one thing at a time. Plus no protection in V/S what a surprise.

You're going on tidbits released, not the full picture. I'm very surprised the NTSB didn't wait until at least the preliminary report for their findings, and then the public hearing. The preliminary report and the public hearing will have a better and much more accurate picture than releasing partial sound bytes of information.

 

[Erlanger]

You're going on tidbits released, not the full picture. I'm very surprised the NTSB didn't wait until at least the preliminary report for their findings, and then the public hearing. The preliminary report and the public hearing will have a better and much more accurate picture than releasing partial sound bytes of information.

The problem with the conduct of these NTSB briefings is with Deborah Hersman's retirement in the next few months. She announced it before the Asiana crash and makes you wonder if she just wants the last bit of attention before she's gone since no one knew or cared who she was before this accident. Shouldn't the lead investigator be running the show?