ASAP events & hiring

[myq2u]

“ASAP events/letters of warnings/corrections, etc cannot be "seen" by your potential employer on a background check. – Ben Franklin”

- Wrong!

“ASAP reports can NOT be accessed due to de-indentifiying the report in the first place. If your report was accepted into the ASAP program then that is it........no worries.

It would defeat the purpose of the program if it were different. – Shrek”

- Wrong again!


I wish you guys were right but unfortunately it doesn’t work that way.

If an ASAP event investigation is “closed” your statements are correct – there will be nothing on your record. However, all three representatives have to agree in order to “close” an ASAP investigation (there’s usually one representative from the airline, one from the union and one from the FAA).

If there’s a disagreement amongst the three, the pilots being investigated can be issued a letter of warning or a letter of correction (usually involves some kind of ground school/simulator training). A letter of warning basically puts the blame on the pilots, the letter of correction puts the blame on the pilots AND the airline (or actually the training the pilot’s received) – therefore there's a “retraining” event involved – the retraining can also consist of the violated pilots training other pilots “what not to do.”

Both the LOW and LOC are considered “administrative actions” and WILL stay on ones record for 2 years (in some occasions 5 years). The computer system is set up to automatically expunge the events from ones record after 2 years. In other words, you do not need to fill out any forms to have the violation expunged after two years, it will happen automatically.

If the violation was more serious, it will be investigated further and the pilots might get their licenses suspended or even revoked. This is considered a violation.

A big misconception is that an ASAP program will save you from having “something on your record,” sort of like a NASA form. In reality, ASAP will save you ONLY if the violation was so minor that the ASAP event is CLOSED!

If a letter of warning, a letter of correction, or a violation is issued - it WILL SHOW on your PRIA background checks. I used to work part time in the safety department in previous life and remember dealing with these types of questions all the time.

Also, the NASA form is NOT as great of a program as many pilots think. For example, lets say you fill out a NASA form within 10 days of an incident (always send it certified so there’s “proof” of when it was shipped) and the event turns into an FAA investigation. If, as a result of the violation, your license is supposed to be suspended for 60 days, thanks to the NASA form it will not be suspended. HOWEVER, there will be a statement on your record saying “NASA form # … used in lieu of the 60 day suspension…” I guess, if you already have a great job the program works pretty well because you still have a job and your license is not being suspended. However, if you are planning on applying with another airline, you’ll have a “black mark” on your record for life because that statement will never expire from you file.

If you want more clarification, try to contact John Ryan at the OKC FSDO – he’s in charge of the PRIA program; he’s a great guy and very helpful, I’m sure you can look him up on the FAA website.

Good luck!

Elag777-
“they most certainly can, ie letters of correction from the FAA are available through FOIA and are in your file in OAKCity. Not seen in PRIA unless an enforcement/action takes place. Correct – but only if the event was CLOSED. If a LOW or a LOC were issued – an enforcement action has “taken place” and thus the event becomes part of your file.

ASAP is not unless gross negligence is proven.” Correct – see above.

 

[Shrek]

Hmmm....I agree you worked for the ASAP program PART-time - it shows.

"If the violation was more serious, it will be investigated further and
the pilots might get their licenses suspended or even revoked. This is
considered a violation."

You are dead wrong on this one.........IF the ASAP report is ACCEPTED then this statement is false. If it is sole-source then NOTHING will happen to your liscense - period. If it is non sole-source AND accepted (at least our program) then you are correct in so far that the worst you can get is a Letter of Correction or Warning.

If you happen to get a LOC then in all likelyhood if there were no ASAP program your liscense would have been suspended/revoked. The ASAP program is designed to trend safety issues and to encourage pilots to participate and submit reports. To do this they have to protect the participants.........unless they KNOWINGLY violate an FAR.

To try to spread misinformation and in result decrease the number of reports then this program is useless.

 

[regionaltard]

Hmmm....I agree you worked for the ASAP program PART-time - it shows.

"If the violation was more serious, it will be investigated further and
the pilots might get their licenses suspended or even revoked. This is
considered a violation."

You are dead wrong on this one.........IF the ASAP report is ACCEPTED then this statement is false. If it is sole-source then NOTHING will happen to your liscense - period. If it is non sole-source AND accepted (at least our program) then you are correct in so far that the worst you can get is a Letter of Correction or Warning.

If you happen to get a LOC then in all likelyhood if there were no ASAP program your liscense would have been suspended/revoked. The ASAP program is designed to trend safety issues and to encourage pilots to participate and submit reports. To do this they have to protect the participants.........unless they KNOWINGLY violate an FAR.

To try to spread misinformation and in result decrease the number of reports then this program is useless.

Here's the types of incident not suitable for inclusion in ASAP:

10. GUIDELINES FOR EXCLUDING REPORTS FROM ASAP.

a. Exclusion. The following types of reports are excluded under an ASAP:

(1) Reports involving an apparent violation that is not inadvertent or that appears to involve an intentional disregard for safety.
(2) Reports that appear to involve possible criminal activity, substance abuse, controlled substances, alcohol, or intentional falsification.
(3) Untimely reports excluded under paragraph 9b(1) or reports where a consensus on acceptance under paragraph 9 is not reached by the ERC.
(4) Reports of events that occurred when NOT acting as an employee of the certificate holder.

This is the least favorable outcome for a report that is accepted into an ASAP:

(1) Those non-sole-source reports included in ASAP with sufficient evidence (see paragraph 4q for the definition of sufficient evidence) to support a violation of 14 CFR will be closed with administrative action. Those non-sole-source reports without sufficient evidence to support a violation of 14 CFR will be closed with a FAA Letter of No Action.

q. Sufficient Evidence. Sufficient evidence means evidence gathered by an investigation not caused by, or otherwise predicated on, the individual’s safety-related report. There must be sufficient evidence to prove the violation, other than the individual’s safety-related report. In order to be considered sufficient evidence under ASAP, the ERC must determine through consensus that the evidence (other than the individual’s safety-related report) would likely have resulted in the processing of a FAA enforcement action had the individual’s safety-related report not been accepted under ASAP. Accepted ASAP reports for which there is sufficient evidence will be closed with administrative action.

a. Administrative Action. Under paragraph 205 of FAA Order 2150.3A, Compliance and Enforcement Program, administrative action is a means for disposing of violations or alleged violations that do not warrant the use of enforcement sanctions. The two types of administrative action are a warning notice and a letter of correction.

Warning Notices and Letters of Correction are visible to prospective employers for the period of time that they are active. Here's a link to the ASAP Advisory Circular.

 

[myq2u]

Hmmm....I agree you worked for the ASAP program PART-time - it shows.
...
You are dead wrong on this one.........IF the ASAP report is ACCEPTED then this statement is false.

Hmmm…
Well, you could have just told me that didn’t agree with my point of view and explain why instead of getting personal. You seem to have an attitude and IT SHOWS.

If you look more into my post, you’ll realize that for the most part we actually agree on the subject - even though apparently I didn’t explain it is eloquently as you did.

I was also incorrect by not including the term “will not be accepted” into this sentance "If the violation was more serious, it will be investigated further and the pilots might get their licenses suspended or even revoked. This is
considered a violation."

So here is the correction:

"If the violation was more serious, THE EVENT WILL NOT BE ACCEPTED and it will be investigated further - the pilots might get their licenses suspended or even revoked. This is considered a violation."

To recap:

Sole source & accepted – I agree with you - nothing will happen as the FAA never started an investigation and the event will be closed - your report will merely help other pilots to become safer.

Non-sole & accepted – I agree with you again, the worst case scenario is a Letter of Warning or a Letter of Correction and it will show on your record for 2 years. (the original question was pertaining to background checks) Accepted means all three parties agreed on the steps to be taken (FAA, company rep and the union rep)

Non-sole & not accepted – one of the three evaluators did not agree with the others and the event was not accepted (or maybe 2 out of 3 or all 3). The pilots will probably receive some kind of violation; maybe a fine, a suspension, or a revocation - maybe both. Again – if a NASA form was mailed in within 10 days of the incident a suspension will probably be waived in lieu of the NASA form (some exceptions to this rule), it will however show on your record. This is the part I didn’t explain correctly in my previous post.

I primarily wanted to point out that an ASAP event’s acceptance into the program will NOT protect you from having a letter of warning or a letter of correction on your record. It will show during the PRIA background check.

A pilot at my previous airline had an event accepted into the ASAP program and ended up with a letter of warning (incorrect W&B procedures). When he interviewed at another carrier about a year later he disclosed the information and when filling out the PRIA request form he marked “Send me a copy of the report” on the application. The copy he got from the FAA was the very same form his prospective employer received - the letter of warning was noted on the copy he received. He wasn’t hired but I’m not sure if the LOW was the reason or if there were other factors involved.

“To try to spread misinformation and in result decrease the number of reports then this program is useless.”

To attack others before getting a clarification of their point of view is useless. I strongly support the program; however I do believe there are some misconceptions of what the program will and will not do for you.

For example, at my current airline we were told by an ASAP coordinator that if an event is accepted into the ASAP program “nothing will ever show on your record” were you to apply somewhere else. I asked the person to contact John Ryan at the FAA to double check that “fact” and the ASAP coordinator has since rescinded his “factual statement.”

Sincerely,
myq2u

Regionaltard - thanks for the link.

 

[regionaltard]

"If the violation was more serious, THE EVENT WILL NOT BE ACCEPTED and it will be investigated further - the pilots might get their licenses suspended or even revoked. This is considered a violation."

A subjective evaluation of the "seriousness" of the incident is not one of the critera for acceptance of a report into an ASAP. The only grounds for exclusion are clearly spelled out in the AC.