ASA State of company

[exeagle]

Did anyone get a chance to attend one of these meetings in DFW? Any new news?

 

[sleepy]

Here is the Readers Digest version: everything is great, we are meeting our goals, don't worry, be happy.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

Yep, pretty much standard, canned 'stuff'.

 

[asapilot]

Reading between the lines

For the most part, it's true, it was pretty much what you'd expect. We were last in everything, now we're not last(read: we're next to last now), and we're going to do better in the future. Go team. There was lots of specifics on what we need to improve, with not so many specifics on how we're going to make it happen. The specifics he did mention were things we were aware of, ie. ATL airport renovation, ACARS, new gate management software, etc. The good news is, it appears the company is finally making a real investment in the infrastrucure that will give us the appropriate tools to meet our goals. The thing that wasn't addressed was the workplace attitude and how they plan to foster a better relationship between employees and management. All the new stuff isn't going to take us far if we still have the same workers using it.

The most interesting things I thought were those not explicitly said and the differences between this talk and what we heard from Drew three weeks ago(see my previous post about Drew's talk). The first was regarding aircraft deliveries for next year. It's still 15 planes which he said were to be used primarily for upgrading service. However, he also stated explicitly that there will be growth in ATL and DFW next year. Drew took a much more "no new growth" approach in his talk. Also, Drew told us that we were a very small sliver in the big Delta pie. Skip's presentation, however, showed that we operate 17% of all Delta flying, second in DCI to Comair at 20%. DCI comprises 55% of all Delta flying, bid D doing the other 45%. I believe the rest of the breakdown was Skywest 10%, and CHQ and ACJet 4% each. So, don't underestimate our importance to the big Delta picture. Finally, I posed this question to him: "3 weeks ago Drew told us that we had no money and Delta would not give us money to exercise any of the options that we currently have and we should not expect to see any aircraft beyond the 15 we have coming. Now we're presented with an RFP for 45 aircraft. What changed in 3 weeks that suddenly made this financially viable for Delta?" I was very happy to see that this question put him on the spot. His first response was "I don't want to disagree with Drew, but I have to disagree with Drew." The rest of his(and Brian's) answer was basically this: We were able to secure a better deal with Bombardier for new aircraft than that which we had on the existing options. Therefore, the Delta board, in their October meeting, agreed that it was financially possible to obtain more aircraft. Regarding Drew, he said that Drew did not have this information at the time. So, I never asked what kind of aircraft they were, he just offered that they were coming from Bombardier. So, at least that might put us a little more at ease that Chiquita isn't going to be the likely recepient. One positive is that Skip seems to share our distaste for Chiquita's presence and seemed to not be pleased that we were all being played against each other. Thought I don't know how much I can buy into it, he did seemed to express a committment to putting out a good bid on the RFP regardless of the outcome of our negotiation status. He said he would meet with the MEC personally to lay out exactly what the company thinks is necessary to be "competitive" and what assurances the company can give us in return that it will be worthwhile. I personally still have a lot of issues with the whole idea, but I came out of it with a better sense that Skip does have ASA's interests in mind and the screwjob is coming from higher up.

My realistic hope is that, growth or not, at least the new tools will help us become a better operator and we can have a little more pride in the work our team does. Skip said he felt confident that we will be competitive and receive some aircraft and I hope he's right. I've noticed though that we too have many folks with "young guy entitlement" syndrome who are willing to give it all away without question to be able to throw another stripe on thier shoulders. We have the responsibility to look out for all members of our pilot group, but 9/11 has taught us all patience and I hope we can look a little further down the road than just how many captains we can upgrade next year.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

They still have not adressed the PROBLEM in ATL. You can upgrade gates, gnd equipment, ACARS, gate 'management' (?) software and all the other hardware but it still does not fix the main problem, the people who don't give a crap about doing the best they can. gate agents, rampers, fuelers, catering, cleaning etc. Not all of them, alot of them are the best, they care, go way beyond and try and show the others how it should be done. I make dam sure those folks know it too. I go out of my way to go up to them and say thanks. The rest...need to get the boot off the property...now. Unfortunately, won't happen...hmm wonder why.

 

[wil]

Great post asapilot! I have time to look at the RFP and even though it ticks me off that we have to bid for the flying I have no problem negotiating 2 years from now if the company is serious about backpay.

The economy is picking up and will continue to build steam. People are returning to the airport again.

The talk around the lounge last summer was "quality of life" since we would not see too much of a raise because of the economics. But 2 years out we can go for quality of life and pay- without a doubt!

If we ever had a chance to raise the bar for our industry I think 2 years out is our best shot. I am not excited to be a "lifer" as the cement dries around my feet but I think we have to put personnal finances aside and look at the bigger picture! All the best-

 

[PA-44Typed]

We did just hire a lot of new Ramp Agents. The quality of theses folks seems to be a LOT HIGHER THAN NORMAL. I was told by one of the leads that they are trying to raise the bar on the kind of people that they are hiring. So maybe I will actually be able to do my job without having to wake up all the (insert your term here) sleeping in the baggage carts.

 

[wms]

2 years back pay is nice, but there should also be an LOA to go with the agreement to include seniority based reserve, long call/short call and commuter clause. An additional 2 years of pathetic existence is not worth a few jets.

There should be a clause that says if we don't get jets then the deal is rescinded and it's back to normal.

 

[rjcap]

wil and wms,

you boys need to read the ALPA board on this topic to get you up to speed. Siging a 2 year extension would throw the contract talks back to year 1 when the extension ends.

Also, the retro pay was going to be alot less then you might have imagined.

 

[wms]

I'm with you. I'm not for extending the contract at all. Read my posts on the other threads. The point I make is there is more than a few bucks at stake especially when living as a commuter on reserve. The second email from the MEC scares me because they seem to think it's worth considering when it is not. Let whoever is willing to sell themselves out have the jets. We'll get our share regardless.

Most don't understand the time involved in this. Scrap all work done till now and start over in 2004. That would mean the status quo until 2006 at the earliest. That is not acceptable with out the QOL issues improved substantially in the mean time via LOA. Hopefully the MEC says no. I would prefer they didn't even consider it, but if they do then QOL has to be better now.

 

[asapilot]

Thanks wil. It's more important than ever for us to all share information and I hadn't seen much said about Skip's talk, so I thought I'd post what I'd heard.

Well, I had written a long, drawn-out reply about this, but by the time I was done, I saw my reply was outdated. I'm going to suspend my decision until 12/5 when the MEC can present it all for us.

 

[sleepy]

"The talk around the lounge last summer was "quality of life" since we would not see too much of a raise because of the economics. But 2 years out we can go for quality of life and pay- without a doubt!"


I am sorry wil, but we won't get dick without some scope or control over a portion of DCI flying.

This contract extension puts us 3 years and 10 months behind where we are now, because we will have to start from the beginning in 10 months. So we start over in 10 months, then it takes 3 years from that date to finish the contract, now we are working for what we are making now for 4 years and 10 months. But we got retro pay, right? The last time we got retro pay it was about $600.

But what if they offer us another carrot in 2 years? What if we take their deal, and they still send the aircraft to Chit or now Midway, or Scumwest?

What if they liquidate us in 10 months and give all of our present flying to one of these other outfits? What would stop Fred?

I say make a stand now. If Chit will fly our 50 seat RJ's for peanuts, then give them to those kids. If Scumwest will fly our 70 seat RJ's for 50 seat pay, then the same applies. I'm sure that you are smart enough to find another line of work that pays better, and has a better QOL than what Chit and Scumwest will take your job for. Right?

Comair had it right!

 

[rjcap]

sleepy,

Your comments are dead on target !!!!!!

 

[wms]

Though I don't know how much I can buy into it, he did seem to express a committment to putting out a good bid on the RFP regardless of the outcome of our negotiation status.

One positive is that Skip seems to share our distaste for Chiquita's presence and seemed to not be pleased that we were all being played against each other.

I don't know if this is reliable, but I had a SKW jumpseater the other day who said their mgmt isn't going to bid on the RFP because they wouldn't make money. It seems that CHQ would have to include the expense of developing a CRJ program, which would increase their bid. ACA is on their own mission. Unless Mesa low-balls, which might be hard with the other battle they're fighting, I would say the bulk of the jets will come to ASA/CA anyway with some going to SKW for the SLC growth. If the DCI mgmts all refuse to give in, DAL will just have to put the jets where it make the best business sense, labor agreements or not.

 

[asapilot]

As sleepy said, retro pay sounds like a great thing until you hear the specifics. If they said they'd pay us what we end up getting for the term of the extension, then we wouldn't really be losing anything. I'm sure though they've factored how much retro they can pay us and still be viable though and I highly doubt it will be a number we really want to see. I, like many others, tend to believe that Delta already knows where it wants the planes and who it makes the most sense to give them too. After all, we and Comair are wholly owned, do you really think that Delta doesn't already know exactly how much we cost and what our bid will be? I think we need to be open to how we can best position ourselves in the current market, but not sell ourselves out for a short-term win that will have long-term negative ramifications.

 

[btflyer2]

How about this, if they want to know what "our" (loosely said, I am a poolie) costs will be for the RFP, just match Comair's rates and/or contract, immediately. Get the negotiations over, then costs will no longer be the "big unknown"!!!!!

And for those who say the economy will be better in 2 years, can we get that in writing??

 

[asapilot]

btflyer-

Well, it sounds like a simple solution, but I think that's exactly what they're trying to avoid. They wanted Comair to get cheaper, so obviously they don't want us to get more expensive, hence the extension.

Also, what Comair gets is good, we know that we're quite likely to get better. It's not so much a matter of being greedy. With ACA going off to do their own thing, it's essentially just us and Comair keeping up the level we've worked for in the regional industry. While getting what Comair has would be a slight increase for us, I think we're all committed not so much to keeping the pay going up and up(though up a reasonable amount), but to improving work rules and securing a viable future for our group(and hopefully for you as well). We like to think of ourselves as industry leaders(and we are in lost bags and involuntary denied boardings) so we've got to move forward.

 

[sleepy]

Remember that with the rate of inflation (2 to 3% per year) a pay freeze is a pay loss. It is a concession.

 

[FL000]

Remember that with the rate of inflation (2 to 3% per year) a pay freeze is a pay loss. It is a concession.

Thanks Sleepy. I've been trying to hammer that point home. It doesn't matter if one perceives this as concessions or not. It IS a bid for growth.

Not a good path to choose.

 

[asapilot]

not exactly

Remember that with the rate of inflation (2 to 3% per year) a pay freeze is a pay loss. It is a concession.

While I don't want to argue whether this is a concession or not, we're not being asked to take a pay freeze. Our current contract remains in effect which pay increases based on longetivity just as it has been since we've been in negotiations. Also, it might interest you to note than our current longetivity pay increases yearly are about 2% until you get to around year 10 when it's about 3%. So, you're getting your inflationary raise as it is.

I'm not of the opinion that the proposal as it is is a good idea for us either, I just want to make sure we don't misunderstand what's being asked of us.

 

[FL000]

Re: not exactly

While I don't want to argue whether this is a concession or not, we're not being asked to take a pay freeze. Our current contract remains in effect which pay increases based on longetivity just as it has been since we've been in negotiations. Also, it might interest you to note than our current longetivity pay increases yearly are about 2% until you get to around year 10 when it's about 3%. So, you're getting your inflationary raise as it is.

I'm not of the opinion that the proposal as it is is a good idea for us either, I just want to make sure we don't misunderstand what's being asked of us.

All true, BUT we were getting YOS increases in addition to DOS+X raises before the amendable date. The DOS+X increases stopped 14 months ago.

 

[rjcap]

While I don't want to argue whether this is a concession or not,

asapilot,

I will argue that a delay in negotiating a new contract is a CONCESSIONARY mindset.

The bottom line is that ASA and Comair are VERY profitable operations. At the same time the ASA pilots are underpaid and deal with quality of life issues that are unjustifiably poor.

If you are not focused on QOL and compensatory improvements then you have accepted a concessionary negotiating stance and subsequently have adopted a concessionary mindset.

One question to all.

Does anybody really think that one day the company will come forward and declare tha the industry is in an upswing ???

 

[asapilot]

All true, BUT we were getting YOS increases in addition to DOS+X raises before the amendable date. The DOS+X increases stopped 14 months ago.

I will argue that a delay in negotiating a new contract is a CONCESSIONARY mindset.

No arguement here fellas. If you read what I said, you'll see my point was only that people shouldn't say things like "pay freeze" when it's not an accurate picture of what we're facing. Each of us that will ultimately vote on(if it comes to that) and live with it is obligated to be educated in our decision. I hope people do say no, I just want them to know exactly what they're saying no to.

If you are not focused on QOL and compensatory improvements then you have accepted a concessionary negotiating stance and subsequently have adopted a concessionary mindset.

I absolutely have those things in mind, I don't really know anyone who doesn't. I'm not overly concerned about our growth picture, I'm confident it will happen, though maybe not at the rate we'd all like it to. I don't know how my attempt at bringing some logic into this discussion makes me someone who's not focused and ready to accept concessions.

Does anybody really think that one day the company will come forward and declare tha the industry is in an upswing ???

Of course not. I think companies are going to ride the doom and gloom forecast for all it's worth. Obviously it behooves us to try and use economic upswings to our favor in negotiations, but those people who are saying "in two years we'll get a better contract than we will now" are a lot more optimistic than they should be.

Finally, the reason I took the time to correct the misconception about the "pay freeze" is because this is likely the biggest decision a large majority of our pilot group has faced here at ASA. The majority of our pilot group was not here for the last contract talks and this will dictate a lot of our future moves. I've spoken to a large number of people about this and frankly I was surprised at how many had virtually no real information about it. The words "retro pay" and "new jets" resonanted with them much stronger than "contract extension" did. I was surprised how many people were of the opinion "as long as they give me some money, I'll go for it." We have a fairly unified view here on this message board, but we have to remember we're just a few out of many.