ASA recurrent w/ Scott

[buscap]

What is funny is that no one over that the four sided squirrel cage cares. Delta hates the number that we have. I think that one guy mentioned waiting to park a few nights ago coming in from YYZ. Well guess what, you were carrying a Delta exec who was totally honked off. I know, I was on the phone with him. They know that this place sucks. They are just trying to figure out a way to "fix" it. They guys told me that he loves to deal with SKW and their management, but ASA, just drives then up the wall. Will it change, who knows but the correct people are finding out for themselves. In his words this place is going to get Thumped. I cannot wait to see what happens.

Now that is funny, considering how long Delta owned us and did absolutely squat to improve our operation, unless you count handicapping us with a bunch of antiquated Delta-Technology crap. And who is our management which they are supposedly so unhappy with....oh yeah, a bunch of Delta pukes!!!!

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I do not think that they are blaming upper management. It is the mid level that they want to throw out. It is where the problems start. It is the operational issues that are pi$$ing off DAL. They could give a crap on how we are run as long as we do not run off their passengers. To DAL it is all about money.

 

[ASADFW7]

Uhm, ASA used to have a handful of computers I think the statement of what Delta has done is incorrect. Like it or not, those are emotions speaking and not fact.

 

[~~~^~~~]

They could give a crap on how we are run as long as we do not run off their passengers. To DAL it is all about money.

Sadly - you are correct.

 

[Long Time Gone]

By the way, when I spoke to the ASA Ramper he said he was sleeping because he works two jobs and ASA kept him there until the early morning because of a late arriving flight. With no more than four hours in between shifts to get rest, who can blame him. At less than $10 an hour he needs all the hours he can get.

Not my problem, nor yours. If the individual is sleeping on the job in view of passengers, (s)he should be terminated, regardless of personal issues. Everyone chooses their own path to follow.

Now if I could only get all of these oldtimers to stop flying fast (.82+) all the time to collect "premium" pay when we're both WAY overblock.

OOOOOOHHHHHH, I'm flying my life away........
Looking for a sunny day........
For me...........

 

[John Pennekamp]

Well said Fins.

Before the Ron Allen-Leo Mullen-Jerry Grinstien days, Delta was a family business where management came from within. Employees felt like family, and would do anything for their company.

Ron single handedly killed the "Spirit of Delta" by beating nthe employyes down with 7.5. Then Leo came in with his friends and his Harvard MBA mouth and turned Delta into a "Marketing Driven Airline". The GO was filled with automaton bean counters and everything was assigned a value. Delta was intended to transition from an airline to a "Brand". Delta divested most of its assets and outsourced most of its services. It only wanted to be a company that sells transportation. The idea failed, and Leo and his friends left with billions. Jerry "The Hatchet" Grinstien then arrived for the sole purpose of taking the company through bankruptcy. He succeeded. Then they orchestrated the sham USAir buyout for the purpose of rebuilding morale of employees and ATL residents.

Now that Delta is about to get back on its feet, look for Delta to begin moving a lot of its flying and services back in house. They're going to try and turn it back into an airline. We'll see.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Fins, why did you edit your post?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Not my problem, nor yours. If the individual is sleeping on the job in view of passengers, (s)he should be terminated, regardless of personal issues. Everyone chooses their own path to follow.

Now if I could only get all of these oldtimers to stop flying fast (.82+) all the time to collect "premium" pay when we're both WAY overblock.

OOOOOOHHHHHH, I'm flying my life away........
Looking for a sunny day........
For me...........

OK, so you fire them. Then what, Mr. Manager? Are you going to skip playing ball with your child and come de-ice the airplane at 05:30 after staing at the airport until 03:00 to offload that last flight?

It is easy (and too often done) that the solution is to fire the offending employee while the management problem (inadequate staffing, not paying your good employees what they are worth) is swept under the rug.

You write "everyone chooses their own path to follow." Well when you are Captain you can choose your own speed to fly. If a Captain decides he has the fuel to try to make up for a little of ASA's operational delay to get Delta's passengers to their connecting flights on time - that sounds like a good decision to me.

Would you take that same attitude to FedEx with a load of boxes on board? Then why have that attitude at ASA with a load of Delta's passengers on board?

 

[WalterSobchak]

OK, so you fire them. Then what, Mr. Manager? Are you going to skip playing ball with your child and come de-ice the airplane at 05:30 after staing at the airport until 03:00 to offload that last flight?

It is easy (and too often done) that the solution is to fire the offending employee while the management problem (inadequate staffing, not paying your good employees what they are worth) is swept under the rug.

You write "everyone chooses their own path to follow." Well when you are Captain you can choose your own speed to fly. If a Captain decides he has the fuel to try to make up for a little of ASA's operational delay to get Delta's passengers to their connecting flights on time - that sounds like a good decision to me.

Would you take that same attitude to FedEx with a load of boxes on board? Then why have that attitude at ASA with a load of Delta's passengers on board?

No real response to this thread...but much respect for this post, Fins.

 

[ASAFLY2]

Why anyone would call scheduling on their cell phone just completely boggles my mind. Even if you've got unlimited minutes it's just the wrong thing to do. Don't want to leave the cockpit? Use 131.15 in ATL or your Sure Mic anywhere else.

-Blucher

Better yet, use Delta Radio whenever possible. ASA pays a hefty price per call for the service. I made sure to call a few times over Christmas to wish my dispatcher Merry Christmas(oops, I mean Happy Holidays) haha

 

["GO AROUND"]

As long as you are 5'2" or less and 120 lbs or less, never been an ultimate fighter champion, a martial artist black belt or not just a bad a$$..... then bring it on. If you are any of the preceding, yeah, beat it out of them!

Nah, I'm 6'3" and 210. My neighbors kid is a black belt. Does that count?

 

[Tarzan]

Nah, I'm 6'3" and 210. My neighbors kid is a black belt. Does that count?

Since it sounds like it would be a fair fight but the neighbors kid puts it over the top..... Beat it out of them!!!!!

 

[John Pennekamp]

Better yet, use Delta Radio whenever possible. ASA pays a hefty price per call for the service. I made sure to call a few times over Christmas to wish my dispatcher Merry Christmas(oops, I mean Happy Holidays) haha

ASA doesn't pay anything for Delta radio. In fact, ASA doesn't pay anything for anything. 100% of our operating costs are paid by Delta.

 

[Blucher]

ASA doesn't pay anything for Delta radio. In fact, ASA doesn't pay anything for anything. 100% of our operating costs are paid by Delta.

Anything that takes away from your profit is being "paid for." If this were not the case, why wouldn't management just say "OK, pilots all now make $120/hr, we'll just put it under 'operating costs' and bill Delta."

-Blucher

 

[John Pennekamp]

Anything that takes away from your profit is being "paid for." If this were not the case, why wouldn't management just say "OK, pilots all now make $120/hr, we'll just put it under 'operating costs' and bill Delta."

-Blucher

You're wrong. According to the agreement, all operating costs are coverd, and ASA is guaranteed a profit as long as the minimum performance goals (mostly "completion factor" are met.

The reason we all don't get $120 per hour is pressure from Delta to keep pass-through costs low.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

John is entirely correct. It also has to do with a few other things. Per the DCI contract all flying can be rebid after each five year window. We (ASA) have the option at that time to not "pass through" the costs that make us uncompetitive. IE one of the two lowest operators in a current class. According to Jerry, he states that paying us more and making SKW inc have to not pass through all of the costs, is inf act too much work for the accountants. He stated that us writing DAL a check immediately after they just wrote us a check for our profit made no sense to him. That in a nut shell is why they absolutely refuse to pay us more. I guess it gets too confusing for the numbers people.
I say BS. Each and every operator for DCI will have this contract and there is no way that all can be in the bottom two. All it does is makes it easier for DAL to rebid flying every few years and make the regionals a horrible place to stay. We has pilots had no say in the current DCI agreement, and therefore should not be penalized for their blunder.

 

[Blucher]

Now I am confused. Where is this list of what they consider an operating cost and what they don't?

-Blucher

 

[ACL65PILOT]

everything is considered an operating cost. It all is there for one reason. To make sure that the aircraft and the crews are supported.

 

[Blucher]

everything is considered an operating cost. It all is there for one reason. To make sure that the aircraft and the crews are supported.

OK. This goes back to my original point then. If everything is considered an operating cost, and Delta pays 100% of that, why don't we have ACARS on every a/c on property? Why haven't we purchased more working huffers and aircarts? Why don't we have HUDS? My guess is that it would 'cost money' in that it would pull from the checks that Delta writes to ASA and therefore cut into ASA's profit. Is that not correct?

-Blucher

 

[buscap]

Uhm, ASA used to have a handful of computers I think the statement of what Delta has done is incorrect. Like it or not, those are emotions speaking and not fact.

I stand by my emotions. I have witnessed the Delta Technology crap we are saddled with crash way too many times. And how about all those great improvements made to concourse C and D while the big D owned us?

My point is, midlevel managers at Delta need only look at their own company if they want someone to blame for ASA's crappy operation, which it truely is.

 

[John Pennekamp]

OK. This goes back to my original point then. If everything is considered an operating cost, and Delta pays 100% of that, why don't we have ACARS on every a/c on property? Why haven't we purchased more working huffers and aircarts? Why don't we have HUDS?

Uh, because Delta is in bankruptcy! They have told ASA and its other vendors not to make any capital expenditures that can be done later. Hello?

My guess is that it would 'cost money' in that it would pull from the checks that Delta writes to ASA and therefore cut into ASA's profit. Is that not correct?

-Blucher

It just doesn't work that way. ASA (actually Skywest, Inc) gets 100% of its costs reimbursed, and is GUARANTEED a profit provided certain performance goals are met. In return, Delta gets to sell every seat on our airplanes for whatever they want, and keep the profit from it.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

OK. This goes back to my original point then. If everything is considered an operating cost, and Delta pays 100% of that, why don't we have ACARS on every a/c on property? Why haven't we purchased more working huffers and air carts? Why don't we have HUDS? My guess is that it would 'cost money' in that it would pull from the checks that Delta writes to ASA and therefore cut into ASA's profit. Is that not correct?

-Blucher

What you are saying is 100% correct. But, you need to look at the second part of that equation. The one that leaves us pilots with what we got. Yes, we could put all of that fancy stuff on the flight deck, pay the crews 120 an hr, have great work rules. Basically everything that a pilot would ever want, but how would that make us look in DAL's eyes. Like I have posted on here before it is about money. Money is god to DAL. They do not and will not care about any feed again. We are a means to an ends. They want the cheapest operator out there. Putting all of that stuff in to this company would not make out "operating coast" look good to DAL. Basically uncompetitive. It sucks, but it is the way that this whole DCI opera ton works.
They are pushing bad work rules and pay down every regional carriers throat. We are getting ACARS for a few reasons. One, it will clear up DAL radio for DAL planes and pilots to use. Two, for some reason they think that this will help out on time performance and save us money. Those are the only reasons why we are getting them. In that case the ends justify the means.

Mark my words. I fully expect DAL and SKW Inc. to change the DCI agreement that they signed a year and a half ago. The clause that stipulates that we (ASA) operate 80% of the flying out of Atlanta. It will be changed to SKW Inc. They cannot do it now due to the fact that the contract was reaffirmed in court. After they exit it will be a simple addendum to the current contract.
In the end it is for the most part going to be about who can deliver the lift DAL wants at the lowest cost. Look at our logging situation. We change hotels for a two dollar a night.Management is convinced that there is still blood to squeeze out of this rock. Unless we as pilots get iron clad merger and fragmentation protection, this new contract will not be worth the paper that it is written on. Yes, it affect your family as well as mine, but sadly no one cares. It is all about the stock holders and their precious bonuses.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Unless we as pilots get iron clad merger and fragmentation protection, this new contract will not be worth the paper that it is written on. Yes, it affect your family as well as mine, but sadly no one cares. It is all about the stock holders and their precious bonuses.

Lemme get an amen!

 

[CFI2766]

In the end it is for the most part going to be about who can deliver the lift DAL wants at the lowest cost. Look at our logging situation. We change hotels for a two dollar a night.Management is convinced that there is still blood to squeeze out of this rock. Unless we as pilots get iron clad merger and fragmentation protection, this new contract will not be worth the paper that it is written on. Yes, it affect your family as well as mine, but sadly no one cares. It is all about the stock holders and their precious bonuses.[/quote]


Soooo, do we take less in the form of W2 compensation to achieve this?

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I say no.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

You have to look at the overall cost of doing business with one regional versus the next. ASA's costs are the lowest in this section of the industry. There is a lot of room for a QOL as well as a pay increase, with out jeopardizing the long term prospects of the company. That is why we are only 10-15 million a year apart. You must understand that our management wants us to be easily in the bottom two of all DCI carriers. With what the CNC is asking we would be very close. IE less than a quarter of a million dollars off.
You must look at it from a larger prospective as well. It costs a lot and I mean a lot of money to move an airline in to someone else's digs. You have to move crews as well as back support. That cost is easily in the 10's of millions of dollars. It is a lot easier for Delta to pay slightly more for ASA out of Atlanta than it is to move a new airline in. Yes, it is a gamble, but when you are bottom line myopic ASA would still be the cheaper alternative.

 

[Blucher]

Uh, because Delta is in bankruptcy! They have told ASA and its other vendors not to make any capital expenditures that can be done later. Hello?

Hi.


It just doesn't work that way. ASA (actually Skywest, Inc) gets 100% of its costs reimbursed, and is GUARANTEED a profit provided certain performance goals are met. In return, Delta gets to sell every seat on our airplanes for whatever they want, and keep the profit from it.

Therefore, I once again ask the question, where is the list of what is a "cost?" I assume they are drawing a line somewhere, otherwise, literally everything would be considered a "cost." If the overall picture is that ASA management wants to keep our "costs" down, how does our using resources (ie: fuel) at a higher than normal rate not affect that? To say it's "free" just doesn't compute in my head. If Big D sees that Shy-Taco is using $10 worth of gas on the same route where ASA is using $40 worth of gas for the same flights don't you think they'd notice? If so, how do you not apply that to everything else? Don't you think ASA's management is also concerned about losing their jobs?

-Blucher

 

[ACL65PILOT]

The "costs" come in to play because on one clause in the DCI contract. All savings realized after the first year go the parent company. IE if ASA saves money on something it goes directly in to DAL's coffers. Almost all of our operating cost are pass through cost. This basically means that if it takes us less to operate a given flight out costs (costs that DAL has to pay for the lift) is less.
For example. We now are to use minimal reverse thrust on landings where it is not required. The serves two purposes for DAL. One, if everyone did this is would save DAL about 3.1 million gallons a gas a year. Yeah it adds up. Two, we pay for our brakes base upon cycles. IE if we burn them up there is no more out of pocket expense incurred. Thus there is a savings realized at the DCI level for ASA doing the flight. IE we are cheaper. Crew costs do come in to play, but when you can save money on things like this, there is a lot of room to pay crews more. If you do not believe me DAL have a major campaign on right now to now use APU's more than 30 mins on avg. per flight. They are basically trying to cut usage in half. As a whole it adds up.

 

[Blucher]

ACL65PILOT,

That's pretty much what I'm saying. It was stated before that various things we, as pilots, have direct control over do not actually "cost" anything. I personally do not buy (no pun intended) this argument. Of course our profit will be bigger, at some point, if we use less gas, make fewer Sure Mic calls, etc... You're example about thrust reverse is interesting. I wonder if that had anything to do with the over run in Cleveland a couple days ago. Personally, I hope it did. It would just be one more example of how airline management and/or their cubicle jockeys come up with the most interesting ways to 'step over a dollar to pick up a penny.' How much damage do you think has been done with this single engine taxi initiative? I know of at least 3 incidents in ATL prior to the memo about not single engine taxiing if parking on D concourse. And according to a recent memo bad things are happening at out stations too, as a result of excess thrust (likely from single engine taxiing). You can call these things 'pass-through costs,' or whatever, but the bottom line is that at some point they do come out of the profits of ASA/Skywest. Even if they are not actually 'taken' out until we lose the DAL contract. Again, if DAL management sees ASA spending lots more than other DCI carriers they are going to put pressure on ASA managers to put things in line. This is where, I believe, pilot's leverage comes into play. A manager who can't keep his costs in line is soon to be shown the door. If you don't think they are keeping close track of thier costs because they are 'pass-through,' I would have to disagree. I don't think the single-engine taxi initiative came about because BL and CT are members of Green Peace.

-Blucher

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I agree with you 100%. I believe that we are on the same page. It is a pass through cost or profit for DAL. In the end it makes us look more competitive or less. This is true. It is also where the pilots and their willingness come in to play.
I cannot speak with any knowledge about Republic's op specs, but I am guessing that there is not way a sane pilot would use reduced thrust on a contaminated runway. It states that in our POH as well. This procedure is only to be used on non-contaminated runways.
The whole idea of accounting being the reason for not giving raises is BS. I am telling you want out management team is using to try and bag us. It is weak. Fact is that all of our other costs are in-line so a raise would not break the bank or bust the DCI contract.