ASA Pilots.. Is this what you are happy with?

[av8tor4239]

From the latest negotiation update...



"Management also presented their first proposal on Section 5 Traveling Expenses. Management’s proposal suggested​

[font=Arial,BoldItalic]NO INCREASE [/font]on the current per diem rate – for the life of the new agreement. When the Association asked why they did not offer an increase, they responded that they did not see the need to do so. The Association made it clear this would not be acceptable. Management’s proposal sought to eliminate providing a hotel in domicile for breaks of 6 hours or more, and they also ignored all of the Association’s issues regarding hotel standards. Company discretion seems to work just fine for them."

"Management still will not address even the simplest issues such as some current practice methods that the Association proposes to incorporate into the agreement. Much of the current contract has been defined over the years though grievance settlement’s, Letters of Agreements, and further clarified by the Scheduling Handbook. Management has not even considered incorporating language from these documents into the new agreement. As the proposals are passed, Management usually focuses on their issues and proposes fixes to their problems and fails to acknowledge resolution to many of our core concerns."

This is why we walk in circles, this is why WE WANT YOU. What ever your agenda is, this applies to all of us!

​

 

[av8tor4239]

Come on ASA Driver, japhy, Oh Please!, how do you respond to this?

The cost of living goes up everyday, but our management does not think that we deserve a per diem increase? and you are ok with that?

Our managment does not want to put our past greivence settlements and LOA's into our new contract.. and you are ok with that too..

Your intent to make the point that you disagree with the politics of the MEC, are in turn costing the entire pilot group the things that have been fought for during the past XXX years that ASA has been represented in contract talks.

 

[ASADriver]

Come on ASA Driver, japhy, Oh Please!, how do you respond to this?

The cost of living goes up everyday, but our management does not think that we deserve a per diem increase? and you are ok with that?

Our managment does not want to put our past greivence settlements and LOA's into our new contract.. and you are ok with that too..

Your intent to make the point that you disagree with the politics of the MEC, are in turn costing the entire pilot group the things that have been fought for during the past XXX years that ASA has been represented in contract talks.

It's not a matter of "what I want" or "what you want". It's a matter of what we can achieve given the hole we have dug ourselves in. ALPA has lost most of it's bargaining power by allowing work to be "bid" on. I don't like it, but it is what it is. I say we work on getting the leverage back, then work on moving the bar up later. Right now we are just pissing in the wind.... We have different priorities. Section 1 is my priority and apparantly Section 5 is one of yours. Without improvements in Section 1, you can forget about the rest of them.

 

[HowlinMadMurdoc]

Come on ASA Driver, japhy, Oh Please!, how do you respond to this?

I don't work for ASA but I've read a lot of your posts. Gotta tell say this - you are one angry person. You need to step away from the keyboard and spend some time outside. Maybe try some relaxation techniques or see a doctor or take a pill.

Better do something before your anger causes a heart attack or stroke.

HMM

 

[av8tor4239]

Furloughed for a year, followed by 3 years of fo reserve while 250 jr newhires bypass you for quality lines will do that to a guy. Being on house arrest (reserve) flying 20 hours a month, you run out of things to do!

Then I have people telling me that we need to accept status quo or a zero net gain contract.... 30 or 40 people out of 1700 showing up for informational picketing.

You would do the same...

 

[737 Pylt]

30 or 40 people out of 1700 showing up for informational picketing.

You would do the same...

I know I would be pissed over that!
737

 

[EMB170Pilot]

I know I would be pissed over that!
737

Yep...That's pathetic!!!!!!!

 

["GO AROUND"]

That number is better than we ever get for voting on MEC elections. The last one I think 13 people voted.

 

[Flying Illini]

followed by 3 years of fo reserve while 250 jr newhires bypass you for quality lines will do that to a guy.

from an ignorant corporate guy, how the heck does that happen?! I thought everything went by seniority numbers?

 

[PCL_128]

from an ignorant corporate guy, how the heck does that happen?! I thought everything went by seniority numbers?

I think it's because he is locked into the ATR and can't move over to the jet. New hires are getting the jet while he's stuck with bad lines in the ATR. I'd be pretty upset too.

 

[doh]

Is there some kind of ungodly long seat lock? Did only 30 people show up to picket?

 

[av8tor4239]

Section 24 of our contract says that the company can bypass an fo for as long as they want if the two postitions pay the same.. ATR/CRJ200...

Throws SR right out the window..

See why I am angry!

And yes only about 30 or so people showed up to picket

 

[atrdriver]

It's not a matter of "what I want" or "what you want". It's a matter of what we can achieve given the hole we have dug ourselves in. ALPA has lost most of it's bargaining power by allowing work to be "bid" on. I don't like it, but it is what it is. I say we work on getting the leverage back, then work on moving the bar up later. Right now we are just pissing in the wind.... We have different priorities. Section 1 is my priority and apparantly Section 5 is one of yours. Without improvements in Section 1, you can forget about the rest of them.

We can't improve section 1 of our contract, because we own zero flying. CMR tried and failed in their negotiations several years ago, for the same reason. You can wish that "underbid" others for growth, but there is still nothing to keep DAL from taking our equipment away and sending it elsewhere. And to be more precise, most people are more concerned about section 13, as that's where the QOL issues lie.

 

[InclusiveScope]

We can't improve section 1 of our contract, because we own zero flying. CMR tried and failed in their negotiations several years ago, for the same reason. You can wish that "underbid" others for growth, but there is still nothing to keep DAL from taking our equipment away and sending it elsewhere. And to be more precise, most people are more concerned about section 13, as that's where the QOL issues lie.

Having the best scheduling section without scope will guarantee the elimination of your job in the portfolio. It is this kind of thinking that has backed us into a corner. If you truly believe ALPA and believe that you "own zero flying", you can forget about improving pay and QOL here at ASA. Without scope, the rest doesn't matter. If this is the way our MEC thinks, they can forget about my support!

 

[ohplease!]

Section 24 of our contract says that the company can bypass an fo for as long as they want if the two postitions pay the same.. ATR/CRJ200...

Throws SR right out the window..

See why I am angry!

And yes only about 30 or so people showed up to picket

Bid the 70 (slc if you have to) then bid ATL 50. They'll either have to pay you the diff. or give you a class. If its ATR to SLC, they'll have to give you a class...once you're in class, bid ATL 50. There's always more than one way to skin a cat.

 

[atrdriver]

Bid the 70 (slc if you have to) then bid ATL 50. They'll either have to pay you the diff. or give you a class. If its ATR to SLC, they'll have to give you a class...once you're in class, bid ATL 50. There's always more than one way to skin a cat.

No, they don't have to pay the difference, because of the mediation that says a 1 for 1 bypass. You are correct that once the 1 for 1 ratio has been met they have to pay the difference, but not until then. And once you are in class they don't have the obligation to allow you to change your bid.

 

[av8tor4239]

And to be more precise, most people are more concerned about section 13, as that's where the QOL issues lie.

Dont forget about section 24, the grossly neglegent violation of Senority.

Bid the 70 (slc if you have to) then bid ATL 50. They'll either have to pay you the diff. or give you a class. If its ATR to SLC, they'll have to give you a class...once you're in class, bid ATL 50. There's always more than one way to skin a cat.

Not many people can hold SLC (including me)as it is very sr. the most Jr FO in SLC is about 1250 sr number. I have bid the 700 in ATL, and have been bypassed for that too.. Without pay.. A mediator ruled that the company only has to pay protect bypassed first officers for higher paying equipment on a ONE FOR ONE basis.. in a nut shell, if there are 10 fo's with their bid in for 700 ATL, and a newhire, or a jr pilot to those ten gets the award, bypassing those 10 fo's, only the most SR of the ten bypassed fo's gets pay protected, the other 9 are screwed.

ohplease!, this cat can only be skinned one way.. that is by getting out to the MEC sponsored events to show our frustration with the current pace of negotiations, and to get this contract fixed in the many places in needs fixing!

Remember these issues have nothing to do with pay.. This is strictly cleaning up the language that currently exist.. We need to make it impossible for the company to interpret these things the way they want to. These issues have nothing to do with our current economic situation, and this particular issue is why I am so ANGRY!

 

[ohplease!]

I stand corrected. I guess you're stuck then. It worked for all of us that bid DFW and then back. Some even while in class.

 

[InclusiveScope]

Dont forget about section 24, the grossly neglegent violation of Senority.
Remember these issues have nothing to do with pay.. This is strictly cleaning up the language that currently exist.. We need to make it impossible for the company to interpret these things the way they want to. These issues have nothing to do with our current economic situation, and this particular issue is why I am so ANGRY!

av8tor,
I am growing weary of your whining. You beg me to care deeply about your plight and section 24, yet you don't care about section 1. Why should I care about your issues if you don't care about my issues. I am planning a long career here and am worried about the long haul at ASA. Your issue seems to be to let you go fly the RJ. If you don't care about the long term consequences to ASA, then I don't care if you ever get off the ATR.

 

[av8tor4239]

av8tor,
I am growing weary of your whining. You beg me to care deeply about your plight and section 24, yet you don't care about section 1. Why should I care about your issues if you don't care about my issues. I am planning a long career here and am worried about the long haul at ASA. Your issue seems to be to let you go fly the RJ. If you don't care about the long term consequences to ASA, then I don't care if you ever get off the ATR.

YOU INSULT ME...

I care very much about your issues, INCLUDING SECTION 1 and the issues of the other 1700 Pilots on our SR list.. That is why I am out there in the freaking cold walking in circles and trying to get the ball rolling on our freaking negotitations.. That is why I am a P2P rep, that is why I am on this freaking board in the first place!

This has nothing to with flying the RJ.. this has to do with SR and SR only.. I will fly a freaking 152 if they wanted me to.. MY "plight" is not with equipment type, but is with the interpretation of the contract, and the language itself!

I can talk the talk, and follow up with the walk!

 

[InclusiveScope]

YOU INSULT ME...

I care very much about your issues, INCLUDING SECTION 1 and the issues of the other 1700 Pilots on our SR list.. That is why I am out there in the freaking cold walking in circles and trying to get the ball rolling on our freaking negotitations.. That is why I am a P2P rep, that is why I am on this freaking board in the first place!

In a previous post, you said:

"Ther is no reason that any pilot group should have to sacrifice for scope or growth. It is not our job as pilots to assure aircraft fleet size or to assure growth. We are responsible for negotiating fair working agreements, but not resposible for running companies or creating scope!"


You deleted it only after I called you on it. Since the deletion, you have repeatedly said that it isn't our job to grow the company.

Your brother in arms, atrdriver, said:

"We can't improve section 1 of our contract, because we own zero flying. CMR tried and failed in their negotiations several years ago, for the same reason. You can wish that "underbid" others for growth, but there is still nothing to keep DAL from taking our equipment away and sending it elsewhere. And to be more precise, most people are more concerned about section 13, as that's where the QOL issues lie."


It doesn't sound like you two put much importance in job security.

 

[av8tor4239]

I did delete it because I was wrong in the fact that we can negotiate scope.. and I admitted that! I still believe strongly that we are not responsible for taking concessions for growth.. You can call it job security if you want (I call it whorism), but the only time we should ever take concessions is if we are in a situation where if we dont our company will fold. There is a big difference between scope and CONCESSIONS FOR GROWTH.

If anyone cares about job security it is me.. I was privileged enough to lose my dream job as a 121 pilot due to flow-thu/flow-back at Continental Express back in 2001.. I know what it is like to be furloghed first hand! IT SUCKS and I will fight, walk in circles or what ever it takes to get an agreement that protects our jobs, protects our SR and improves our QOL!

 

[InclusiveScope]

I did delete it because I was wrong in the fact that we can negotiate scope.. and I admitted that! I still believe strongly that we are not responsible for taking concessions for growth.. You can call it job security if you want (I call it whorism), but the only time we should ever take concessions is if we are in a situation where if we dont our company will fold. There is a big difference between scope and CONCESSIONS FOR GROWTH.

av8tor,
There isn't as big a difference between "scope" and " CONCESSIONS FOR GROWTH" as you think. If we were to get any meaningful job protection in this contract, we will have to give in other areas of the contract. That's the way negotiations work. When you bargain for scope, you are 'conceding' in other areas of the contract.

You also mention that the only time to take concessions is if we are in a situation where if we don't, our company will fold. I have two coments regarding this statement.

1. We are Delta Air Lines, regardless of what your Union tells you and Delta Air Lines is about to fold.

2. In a portfolio concept, management can threaten to fold you if you don't meet their demands. That is a failure on the unions part to allow management the ability to use that threat to force concessions.

 

[av8tor4239]

av8tor,

1. We are Delta Air Lines

I dont know about you, but my last 150 paychecks have said nothing about DELTA AIR LINES.. they are coming from this company called ASA, Atlantic Southeast Airlines. The delta CONNECTION (connection is the key word).

You can not claim to be Delta Airlines when you are a wholly owned subsidary. Different managments, different finances, different working agreements, different working conditions, different aircraft types, different GO's. The only thing we have in common is our paint schemes and schedules.

Do you tell your freinds and family you work for Delta airlines? You must be one of those guys.

 

[~~~^~~~]

You can not claim to be Delta Airlines when you are a wholly owned subsidary. Different managments, different finances, different working agreements, different working conditions, different aircraft types, different GO's. The only thing we have in common is our paint schemes and schedules.

Av8tor:

His point was that without Delta, there is no ASA. ASA is no longer an independent entity for any purposes other than undermining our efforts to bargain collectively. ASA and Comair, exist only as a tool to whipsaw labor - not just pilot labor, but just about every support level group.

In addition, you do not understand ASA's structure:

• ASA does not have insurance policies on the airplanes - Delta does
• ASA does not have financing obligations on the aircraft - Delta does
• ASA does not have an independent budget
• ASA does not sell tickets
• ASA does not decide when ASA operates flights, or to what cities ASA operates
• ASA lacks the authority to cancel service
• ASA does not have a Chief Financial Officer
• ASA operates the same aircraft types as Comair and even operates Comair airplanes ( two of them )
• ASA does not interview, hire, or even have control over its employees. For example (1) Delta secured employment for bid restricted Second Officers at ASA (2) Delta provides scholarships to pilots who then fly at Delta subsidiaries. I have flown with two of these women and they never interviewed at ASA.

It is very hard for me to be loyal to a Company that is not loyal to me, or its own brand. Delta and ALPA have entered into an agreement to keep us separate, although we are clearly operationally integrated. It does not matter that Comair has a GO in CVG and ASA has one in ATL. Delta has Crew Bases, buildings and management teams spread across the nation, it does not make them separate entities.

In the eyes of our Customers we are one brand. The only way to effectively repair this profession is to return to the days when "Delta flying is performed by Delta pilots."

Don't buy into this crap that you are not a real airline pilot and that you have no right to decent treatment by a decent employer. You have equal rights to representation from your union. Until your union recognizes that right, agreements will continue to be made with airline management that allow the sort of absolute crap that goes on at ASA right now.

~~~^~~~

P.S. ASA's fleet was around 20 airplanes before Delta started to code share with us. If I play along that ASA is really an independent entity - how many airplanes do you think ASA could fill without Delta? What ever answer you come up with, you surely realize that neither, you, me, or Inclusive Scope would have jobs for our current employer.

 

[av8tor4239]

I think I am done with you all..

I know that you will not support the MEC or the CNC in negotiating this contract.. I have pitty on you and hope you get everything you want in life..

I can assure you that I will be ouT there for every demonstration of frustration that we can organize. I will do everything in my power to help people get to the MEC website and read the updates to make their own decision..

As for the rest of you ASA pilots out there that read this board, please educate yourselves on the issues on the table, and please decide for yourself if this contract is worth fighting for.. The information is there for you.. please take advantage of it to form your own opinions! DO NOT SIT AT IDLE, EITHER GET OUT AND SUPPORT IT, OR JOIN INCLUSIVE SCOPE,OHPLEASE! AND ASADRIVER AND FIGHT IT, BUT JUST DONT SIT THERE!

 

[cosmotheassman]

What happens to your contract if Skywest buys ASA? More importantly, since when does Skywest have enough money to buy ASA and, what is the incentive for them to do so??

 

[~~~^~~~]

If Skywest buys ASA nothing happens to the ASA contract until the companies are integrated, then the Skywest contract prevails.

as for motivation - Skywest probably does not see ASA was the best return on $500,000,000 that they could make. Rather, it is a way to buy some Delta code and keep mother Delta alive for another three, or four, months. Just like Air Wisconsin's buy into US Air.

Without Delta, ASA, Comair and to a large degree, Skywest will have most of their airplanes sitting in the desert.

 

[FL000]

In all this, I've yet to see or hear Skywest's payscale. Anyone care to share? Thanks.

 

[ekuflyer]

Av8tor:

• ASA operates the same aircraft types as Comair and even operates Comair airplanes ( two of them )
• ASA does not interview, hire, or even have control over its employees. For example (1) Delta secured employment for bid restricted Second Officers at ASA (2) Delta provides scholarships to pilots who then fly at Delta subsidiaries. I have flown with two of these women and they never interviewed at ASA.

What 2 aircraft?
Second Officers?