ASA Picketing

[Truckdriver]

Newmann55,


Because they set a precedent in the small jet industry for 70 seat jets to be flown at 50 seat rates. Now every airline that has 50 and 70 seat jets will think that their pilots should fly them for the same rate. So now those carriers with crappy 50 seat rates want their pilots to fly their 70 seat jets for the same crappy rate. When they do that, SKYW will think they should match the lower crappy rates and the viscous cycle continues. In the end this just causes the average pay for pilots in the small jet industry to go lower and lower. If we were making around $200/hr flying wide-bodies the difference in size doesn't matter much. It skews the data to compare us to pilots at mainline carriers that are making $150+/hr. Pilots at small jet airlines don't need any downward pressure on their pay. Most pilots already qualify for government food assistance if they have kids so we don't need stufff like the SKYW rates putting pressure on already poverty level wages.

 

[jehtplane]

SkyWest management has not even met with our MEC, let alone done a meet and greet with our pilot group or for that matter the company as a whole.

As fond as this place is of Chief Pilot forums and other meetings (*bagels provided), I am really surprised that by now there hasn't been a token SkyWest management presence/introduction in the crew room.

Why? When Delta bought us in 1999, Delta did not come and give us any hoo-rah speech! What's the difference? Wholly owned subsidiary then, wholly owned subsidiary now.

 

[Puck Mugger]

Here in SLC, ...They had to move because they were getting heckled by the public.

That is a lie.

 

[pinkbush]

One question why does everyone harp on this so much? First of all America West pays the same regargless if the A/C is a 737 Airbus or 757. Why arent you all complaining about that? CAL pays the same rate for 767 or 777 and for a 737-800 or 757 series. Jet blues EMB-190 top rate is less than skywests 50 seat rate. Granted Jet blue tops out at 12 years and it looks like skywest tops out at 18 years. The max pay on a CRJ 50 at ASA is $82/hr. Max pay on a CRJ 70 at ASA is $103. If you take the average that is $92.50/hr. Looks to me like skywest tops out at $93/hr on the 50 seat plane. Airtran pays the same rate for a 717 or a 737. A 777 has quite a few more seats than a 767 however why is there no outcry that CAL has no differential pay. I am really just curious since I am new to this type of stuff. I have been lurking for a while and have seen this harped on time and time again. I did some research on airlinepilotpay.com so the numbers may be off some. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong. My question is why is everyone screaming about skywest flying an RJ that only has 16 more seats for the same pay as the 50 seat? It also appears their 50 seat rate is more than some of the other airlines 70 seat rates. Someone please enlighten me.

Well said Newman.

 

[701EV]

One question why does everyone harp on this so much? First of all America West pays the same regargless if the A/C is a 737 Airbus or 757. Why arent you all complaining about that? CAL pays the same rate for 767 or 777 and for a 737-800 or 757 series. Jet blues EMB-190 top rate is less than skywests 50 seat rate. Granted Jet blue tops out at 12 years and it looks like skywest tops out at 18 years. The max pay on a CRJ 50 at ASA is $82/hr. Max pay on a CRJ 70 at ASA is $103. If you take the average that is $92.50/hr. Looks to me like skywest tops out at $93/hr on the 50 seat plane. Airtran pays the same rate for a 717 or a 737. A 777 has quite a few more seats than a 767 however why is there no outcry that CAL has no differential pay. I am really just curious since I am new to this type of stuff. I have been lurking for a while and have seen this harped on time and time again. I did some research on airlinepilotpay.com so the numbers may be off some. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong. My question is why is everyone screaming about skywest flying an RJ that only has 16 more seats for the same pay as the 50 seat? It also appears their 50 seat rate is more than some of the other airlines 70 seat rates. Someone please enlighten me.

At ASA we haven't even got to pay rates yet. Hell if our management had half a brain they might be able to sell a single pay rate, if they fixed all the other problems in our current contract. Also our management gave us two seperate pay scales. But they don't even want to negotiate a new contract. We have been in contract talks for 3 years and only have one third of it done. So you see why everyone is frustrated.

Also UPS pays the same pay rate regardless of aircraft type.


701EV

 

[Crash Pad]

Hey old guys. Quick update. I believe ASA has stopped taking aircraft and running new hire classes in order to "catch up with training." Dec. cut in CVG will mean you will see the first major line reduction. Maybe the beginning of the furlough process. Oh and it has been a while since ASA has added one of the 38 expected orders to the fleet... All these events just happen to come at the same time. It also happens in the same month that DAL declares BK... What are the odds? Might the management that you hate so much for short sightedness have a long term plan?


Meanwhile over at SKYW they can't run the classes fast enough and are offering new pay incentives. I am not a Union wizzard and I don't know much about "raising the bar", "holding the line", and "stopping whipsaws" ... I am, however, acutely aware of when someone is trying to go after my job, my paycheck, which also means my home, my credit rating, etc...

I know I'm new to the airlines so I don't realise:
Skywest wouldn't buy ASA and then transfer the assets mngmt said they wouldn't.

Our Union won't allow bad things to happen. We could close this place down.

At least (and this is my favorite) while I'm on the street I can go to bed easy knowing that I never flew a 70 seater at a 50 seat rate.

SKYW would never dare take on the power of ALPA.

ASA runs Atlanta and DAL would never risk a disruption in the ATL.

ASA has never furloughed.

The best example of naivety can be seen with travel bennies... I hear people thinking SKYW will be brought up to our level because DAL pilots really need it too. Mngmt does not give a crap about us. We are an expensive cog in an expensive wheel. They are trying to fix a cog not make the cog happy and give it an easy commute.

I'm sure I'm forgetting a bunch of the rhetoric that will keep us all safe. So keep picketing guys. Once the public sees your plight they will start paying more for tickets and management will have no choice but to raise your QOL to silence the masses.

 

[JoeMerchant]

SKYW is "evil" for having a single payrate, while the USAirways MEC are heroes because they agreed to fly the E190 for about the same as SKYW 50 seat rates. Wake up people. Despite what DW and ALPA say, we are competing with each other. The mainline will undercut you just to capture the flying. Until ALPA can figure out a way to stop the competition, we must COMPETE.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

SKYW is "evil" for having a single payrate, while the USAirways MEC are heroes because they agreed to fly the E190 for about the same as SKYW 50 seat rates. Wake up people. Despite what DW and ALPA say, we are competing with each other. The mainline will undercut you just to capture the flying. Until ALPA can figure out a way to stop the competition, we must COMPETE.

Or leave ALPA all together and save 2% of your pay. Lets see what SkyWest has to offer (if anything), and if it is good, I'll vote AlPA straight back to D.C. What have they done for me lately, excpet waste money on binders to store all their propaganda, so I can keep it in easy reach, right at home. Funk you ALPA.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Or leave ALPA all together and save 2% of your pay. Lets see what SkyWest has to offer (if anything), and if it is good, I'll vote AlPA straight back to D.C. What have they done for me lately, excpet waste money on binders to store all their propaganda, so I can keep it in easy reach, right at home. Funk you ALPA.

I agree Oakum. If SKYW management agrees to a single list at SKYW in exchange for dumping ALPA, I will vote Yes.

 

[jehtplane]

Hey old guys. Quick update. I believe ASA has stopped taking aircraft and running new hire classes in order to "catch up with training." Dec. cut in CVG will mean you will see the first major line reduction. Maybe the beginning of the furlough process. Oh and it has been a while since ASA has added one of the 38 expected orders to the fleet... All these events just happen to come at the same time. It also happens in the same month that DAL declares BK... What are the odds? Might the management that you hate so much for short sightedness have a long term plan?


Meanwhile over at SKYW they can't run the classes fast enough and are offering new pay incentives. I am not a Union wizzard and I don't know much about "raising the bar", "holding the line", and "stopping whipsaws" ... I am, however, acutely aware of when someone is trying to go after my job, my paycheck, which also means my home, my credit rating, etc...

I know I'm new to the airlines so I don't realise:
Skywest wouldn't buy ASA and then transfer the assets mngmt said they wouldn't.

Our Union won't allow bad things to happen. We could close this place down.

At least (and this is my favorite) while I'm on the street I can go to bed easy knowing that I never flew a 70 seater at a 50 seat rate.

SKYW would never dare take on the power of ALPA.

ASA runs Atlanta and DAL would never risk a disruption in the ATL.

ASA has never furloughed.

The best example of naivety can be seen with travel bennies... I hear people thinking SKYW will be brought up to our level because DAL pilots really need it too. Mngmt does not give a crap about us. We are an expensive cog in an expensive wheel. They are trying to fix a cog not make the cog happy and give it an easy commute.

I'm sure I'm forgetting a bunch of the rhetoric that will keep us all safe. So keep picketing guys. Once the public sees your plight they will start paying more for tickets and management will have no choice but to raise your QOL to silence the masses.

Hey crash pad , getting caught up with training is why we postponed a few classes, do you work in the training department? We were 5-6 weeks behind on IOE because we have lost so many guys in the dept. over the last 2 years. We are just now getting caught up, We are obviously still hiring because we are still doing sim evals, every week! This coupled with the fact that the training dept was divided into two parts a few months ago, people deciding which side of the dept to go too. So yeah things were a little backed up , and that is an understatement. Oh yeah we also hired 30 instructors over the past 10 months . yes aircraft deliveries were postponed because we can not train pilots fast enough to fly them!And yes lines were cut, every year at this time!Get some facts before you TALK OUT OF YOUR A$$, pro-bie.You must be a treat to fly with.

 

[Crash Pad]

I stand corrected. Must have just gotten a little backed up. So the October class is running on schedule and the next delivery will be in Oct. or Nov.?

 

[jehtplane]

I stand corrected. Must have just gotten a little backed up. So the October class is running on schedule and the next delivery will be in Oct. or Nov.?

I don't know , but we just got letters in our box saying we are about to hire some more instructors in anticipation of more growth, so take that for what its worth , I guess.

 

[Crash Pad]

Hey I want growth more than the next guy. I'm not one of those guys with a good line or great pay the only way I can improve either of those is through growth. I guess a new contract could help in theory... I know if we have more aircraft and more flying we have more high hour 3 day lines. Which solves both my problems.

I just like to temper the hope for growth with reality. I don't want to be the USair guy with 16 years at the company saying "don't worry hunny they won't furlough me..."

So this is the latest from my point of view:
Despite the fact that ASA was making billions (according to union types) we were sold.

DAL who would never risk the ATL hub dumped us quicker than you can say yard sale.

Mesa has arrived

E170's with Delta paint are starting to arrive... and not at ASA

Deliveries have been stopped... (suspended, reworked, postponed... whatever you call it when they stop coming but will be coming in the future)

Newhire classes have stopped... (suspended, reworked, etc.)

Buddy of mine in newhire at SKYW said they clearly made it sound like merging was in our future.

DAL announced a 26% cut in CVG... I don't know the numbers but I know some of that will be ASA... That combined with the seasonal cut should have some kind of impact I would think

Comair sets up to furlough 150 (I heard they never furloughed in there history)

DAL announces BK

Now you tell me that ASA has hired 3 instructors a month for the past 10 months (30 in 10 months I believe you wrote)... Which with the supposed attrition and training split does not sound explosive.

I know you think I'm talking out of my a$$. But I find it hard to look at that picture and say... SWEET here comes explosive growth. I know I'm an idiot rookie who doesn't understand the airline industry. Fight now or they walk all over you and all that good stuff... Burn it down... Ground the fleet... they can't replace us...

 

[Russ]

"Buddy of mine in newhire at SKYW said they clearly made it sound like merging was in our future"

I have no idea about merging or not. What I do know is that no rank and file pilot, especially a new hire has inside information on what top management is planning.

 

[Crash Pad]

Russ,
Agreed. So remove that from the list and it still doesn't make a great pot.

 

[Plug]

Crash,

I agree growth is important, but to what extent? I think history is playing more of a role than anything. Don't be blinded by the fact that we haven't gotten some shiny new broken airplanes from the "attic" (Canada) TIC!!!! But since everyone is trying to peice things together I'll throw in my predictions and maybe it'll put your mind at ease.

CMR struck for 89 days 4 years ago and I doubt DAL and it's shareholders has forgotten about that. DAL booted Randy Radamacher from the CEO position at CMR and moved "Portfolio" Fred Buttrell in to the position for 2 reasons 1) punishment for not having control of CMR after that mess in Dec., and 2) to start the payback process from the strike. Fred was quite successful in his mission from the getgo by securing the pay freeze from the CMR folks and all it took was a shiny new E170 on the ramp in CVG and some ever so un-settling words to JC to pass on to the rank-and-file. Now Fred is viewed as a savior of sorts, but don't expect much.

ASA was sold to Skywest and part of the agreement affords certain protections for both ASA and Skywest with regards to DCI or DAL doesn't get all their money. Only downer is that each airplane to be delivered can be used as a bargaining chip and the almighty whipsaw will be used, tis why a merger of the lists is important.

Crash you mentioned Mesa coming to town. Well, why not, there is nothing to throw up against the boys and girls at CHQ. I find it very interesting that Mesa is moving all of its 145's from AAA to DAL and basing them in MCO.

Anyway, enough with the background to my theory, here goes:

CVG being downsized is only the start for CMR. With the recent BK filing expect to see some RJ's parked and most likely they will be the older original CMR birds like 7011, 7015, etc. Like I said, this is payback for 4 years ago and there will also be massive concessions at CMR to get their operating costs back in line with everyone elses. This is not a good thing and most definitely lowers the bar. CMR will handle what is left of CVG and the northeast stuff.

Mesa is going to Disneyworld to eventually replace the CHQ 145's. What will happen to the 145's? CHQ will probably transfer them to one of the other 10 carriers they code with ;-). ASA and Skywest will be the big DCI players owning ATL and SLC with some CHQ 170 traffic.

The aircraft deliveries that crash is sooooooo worried about have simply been deferred for several reasons. 1) ASA was very much behind on staffing and needed some relief, 2) Skywest is trying to get all future orders converted to CR7's with a First Class section much like they do on the UAL side of the house. Once again the threat of whipsaw is ever so clear especially with CR7's.

I think that Skywest will eventually merge the 2 groups in some fashion or another and Skywest will provide the bulk of the feed for the combined DAL/NWA and CAL/UAL.

Aww crap my crystal ball has fogged up on me, sorry....

JMO

 

[sweptback]

The rumor I had heard was that the deliveries were deferred to swap them to CR7s. Bombardier wanted at least a year to 18 month lead time to swap airplanes to the 700. The airplanes that were not able to be swapped were delivered as 50s... but I believe all airplanes coming next year will be 700s.

Classes will start up again in October. They are still interviewing and that costs a lot of money with the sim ride at FSI, so why would they interview if they had no plans on hiring? People are still leaving (heard 18 left in the last month alone)... that's one class right there just to cover attrition.

Whether or not the airplanes come to ASA is up for discussion, but I think a lot will come to which side of the country DL needs the feed on. If they need it on the East coast it will be ASA, if they need it on the West coast it will probably be SkyWest. Given that probably 80% of DL's operations are East of the Mississippi I'm not too worried about it.

 

[-9Capt]

Airtran pays the same rate for a 717 or a 737.

AirTran pay rate is the same for the 717 and 737-700, The -800's would pay a 13% override.