ASA Picket 17th

[atrdriver]

too bad this is all anonymous. I'd sure love to meet you... and a couple of your pretty friends too

Be careful what you wish for. I don't really think you'd want to meet av8tor4239 for anything other than a beer.

 

[DC8 Flyer]

ahhhh crap, nevermind!

 

[av8tor4239]

This just in from the MEC:




The ASA pilots conducted informational picketing at Hartsfield-Jackson
Atlanta Int'l Airport on March 15 and 17 to draw attention to both our
extended contract talks and the need for management contract
compliance.

Picketers walked in three different locations along the south side of
the terminal.

We'd like to thank all of the pilots who participated in these events.
Your demonstrated commitment to our cause is appreciated!


Management watches closely the number of pilots who participate in
these picketing events, and this impacts the company's pace and participation at the bargaining table. In the simplest terms, if we have a strong showing at picketing events, we have greater leverage and a greater chance for success in these negotiations.

 

[InclusiveScope]

ahhhh crap, nevermind!

Why did you delete what you said DC8. It was a well thought out post - I read it before you deleted it. It was much more well thought out than many of the posts on here. Please don't "nevermind".

 

[InclusiveScope]

Since you brought up ideals what are yours? Let's see, destroy mainline scope, stick together with those who so willingly stab us (ASA) in the back, and try to trample the MEC when the opportunity shows itself. Excellent ideals!

Plug,
Let's deal with what you say are my "ideals" one at a time.

1. "destroy mainline scope": My position on mainline scope is clear and always has been. As currently used, mainline scope only limits us and does not protect them. In other words, it does neither side any good. So yes, I support eliminating the current form of mainline scope. I prefer a new form of job protection for ALL of us.

2. "stick together with those who so willingly stab us in the back": By this, I assume you mean the CMR pilots. Yes I support sticking together with ALL pilots who are employed by Delta Air Lines, Inc. That includes ASA, CMR, and DAL pilots. The CMR pilots did what they felt was best for the CMR pilots. That was their decision and not ours. That was the result of ALPA's failed "brand scope" BS. Either we are one, or we are separate. If we are separate, we all will do what is best for ourselves. That is reality whether or not you want to accept it.

3. "try to trample the MEC when the opportunity shows itself": I will voice my opinion whether or not it is the opinion of the MEC. If it goes against the opinion of the MEC then so be it. I don't take pleasure in it, but I will not be afraid of "questioning authority".

 

[InclusiveScope]

It's funny that "professionls" are so eager to insult one another because of their difference of opinion. There is a harsh reality that some of the drum-beaters refuse to see.........these are horrible times. I am in support of those optimists trying to go for the fence but reality says that the third and final pitch is about to be thrown. IScope is, sadly, an experienced individual that has seen not only ALPA politics first hand but been party to witch hunts and house cleanings as a result of differing opinions. If you were to ask me, I think he is one of the few that has the courage of conviction to speak his mind unapologetically. This industry is full of know-it-alls and folks are entitled to their opinion, but blast a guy because he doesn't approve of the wasteful nature ALPA spends our 2%, time and resources? Excuse me, but if a dues paying member cannot be critical of their union "leadership" then who can?


Hopefully there will be some viable improvements to our contract that will hold us over for another 6-7 years, but expecting vast improvements while EVERY carrier with a certificate is giving up is foolishly optimistic. The problem is that too many young guys are soo eager to be a Captain that they will/have sacrficed their future for a few jets and a new position. What advantage is there to upgrading when upon your arrival to that seat your pay is only marginally better than FO and you are exposed to Crew Sched, Chief Pilots and inferior QOL? This bitter cycle will eventually end either by resignation or improvments in the economy, but marching, bargaining, and bitching are doing nothing for us.

Thank you Dude. For those of you who want to say some of these things to my face, I encourage you to come to the 112 LEC meeting on 3/28. I will be easy to spot as I will be one of the 3 people at the table in front of the room. Come one, come all - let's talk about these issues face to face.

 

[Dude]

Listen very carefully......................I AM NOT AN RJDC GUY. I was merely offering my opinion and making an observation. It is possible that some who do not agree with ALPA national are not RJDC.

I have flown the 120, ATR, and now the RJ. The ATR being the most enjoyable program and weakest attempt from planning to preserve QOL for its pilots. Your frustration is understood but branding someone bitter, content with the status quo, a trouble maker, or ignorant and misinformed only because they offer theories contrary to yours is immature. You guys are the probably the same folks who want written, expressed lnguage in the contract about where we are allowed to go to the head. I see these types every year in recurrent....they want specific instructions on everything and refuse to behave as if the Good Lord gave them a brain. The same goes for a lot of the Union Rules/Mgmt Sucks crowd. Contrary to what some of you may have been told by Jim Jones/Duane Woerth, there are gray areas in everything and it definately applies here. ALPA is not always correct, nor the Mgmt, or the RJDC fellas. There are solid and credible arguments made by the RJDC, Mgmt, and ALPA, the funny thing being is that none of these groups will admit when the other group is correct; only wrong. The RJDC, Mgmt and ALPA cn be the biggest bunch of children I have ever seen and when someone calls them on it they are ousted and labeled a quack (Inclusive Scope).

 

[Palerider957]

Has anyone seen the on time and completion factors lately? They seem better then ever. We keep bit.ching and moaning about wanting a contract, but no one is willing to do anything about it day to day.

We keep shouting to "fly the contract," and "fly the SP's to the letter." But our numbers tell me (and management) that we will just drone on like little worker bees. V1 even had a blurb praising an FO for going back and throwing bags to get the flight out on time--- why didn't the Captain break his jaw?

I'll tell you why, because this pilot group has no heart, no courage, and acting like a group of scared little rabbits.

What is going on at ASA?

 

[sleepy]

Hey DC8, did you fly for Fine Air?

 

[FL000]

Has anyone seen the on time and completion factors lately? They seem better then ever. We keep bit.ching and moaning about wanting a contract, but no one is willing to do anything about it day to day.

We keep shouting to "fly the contract," and "fly the SP's to the letter." But our numbers tell me (and management) that we will just drone on like little worker bees. V1 even had a blurb praising an FO for going back and throwing bags to get the flight out on time--- why didn't the Captain break his jaw?

I'll tell you why, because this pilot group has no heart, no courage, and acting like a group of scared little rabbits.

What is going on at ASA?

I nominate this for most unprofessional post of the year (so far). It's only March people...plenty of time to beat it.

 

[Palerider957]

Only March? We are into our THIRD year of talks!


When I was in law enforcement, we NEVER had contract talks last more then six months AND WE HAD A NO STRIKE CLAUSE, enforceable with criminal penalties.

Why did talks come to a head so quickly? Because the Patrolman were willing to work together to get a fair contract.

As far as unprofessional, how about this--kiss my a$$.

 

[DC8 Flyer]

Why did you delete what you said DC8. It was a well thought out post - I read it before you deleted it. It was much more well thought out than many of the posts on here. Please don't "nevermind".

Thank you for the kind words, but I deleted it because I really don't have a leg to stand on, personally, about the issue. I got lucky and got my dream job and get to fly the DC8 now with a company with great work rules and relationship with management.

I tried being the voice of reason at my previous employer and even went as far as rewriting the schedules for one base for 2 months to show mgmt it could be done better. But all I heard back from both mgmt AND ALPA was, we don't care, we want more money and less junior mans, when what I had done gave them both WITHOUT a contract rewrite.

I feel for you guys at ASA and COMAIR, but really the name calling, especially by a moderator, is disheartening. I love flying, I love the people I have worked with and will more than likely love the people I will work with in the future, but those that don't work with others are what really make this job and industry a drag.

You wanna make mgmt and ALPA shutup, call the times what the are and the delays for what they are.

 

[japhy]

This just in from the MEC:




The ASA pilots conducted informational picketing at Hartsfield-Jackson
Atlanta Int'l Airport on March 15 and 17 to draw attention to both our
extended contract talks and the need for management contract
compliance.

Picketers walked in three different locations along the south side of
the terminal.

We'd like to thank all of the pilots who participated in these events.
Your demonstrated commitment to our cause is appreciated!

2. Top 10 Reasons I Didn't Show Up for Picketing on My Day Off! (Drum
roll please!)

10. I was doing my hair that day.
9. My lips were chapped from kissing up to management.
8. Skip said it was too early to be picketing.
7. I can't picket; I want to be a chief pilot some day.
6. I have an application in at SkyWest.
5. I'm not a blue collar union pilot; I'm a cockpit executive.
4. I don't care and it shows!
3. I like the current contract, especially Scheduling.
2. My work shoes have to last another 3 years.
1. I demand a fair contract . . . eventually.

Runner ups:
* Management likes me; they really like me.
* I was junior manned for the fifth time this month, even though only
two are legal.
* It conflicted with "Days of our Lives."
* There was a White Sale at Penny's.
* No Kool-Aid was served.
* I couldn't afford the gas to drive to the airport.

All joking aside, our point is that we understand that we all have
lives outside of ASA. When the company extends us, junior mans us, or
increases the amount of flying we do, we still have to remember our
duty to support our MEC and negotiators. We need to show management that we are unified and demand that the company negotiate in good faith.

I can't believe that OUR MEC, the people that are SUPPOSED to represent us would write something like this. This is even more childish that the Kool Aide cartoon that was circulated a few months back. Any faith I had in our MEC is completely lost when I see things like this being published by a "professional" organization. It's no wonder our managment won't listen to them. I can't believe that I have to pay (if only 2%) for this.

[\QUOTE]
You forgot to say "IMHO"

Since when would our MEC EVER count on support from you? You are the most vocal critic of the MEC in this entire company. In fact, you're critical of anyone you percieve to be in any position of leadership.

Inclusivescope, you are an angry middle aged man who hates anyone who you percieve to be in a position of power. Your response is to b*tch, whine, threaten, blackmail, and play passive-agressive mind games. In the end, no one that has decision making power takes you seriously. Perhaps you should reevaluate your technique if you truly want to influence the way things are being run, because what you're doing (this) doesn't seem to be furthering your agenda!
[\QUOTE]

I think I've flown with this guy. He is just as "personable" in person. I felt like stabbing my eyeballs out before we pushed back on the first leg.

 

[av8tor4239]

I can't believe that OUR MEC, the people that are SUPPOSED to represent us would write something like this. This is even more childish that the Kool Aide cartoon that was circulated a few months back. Any faith I had in our MEC is completely lost when I see things like this being published by a "professional" organization. It's no wonder our managment won't listen to them. I can't believe that I have to pay (if only 2%) for this.

Were you out there on the 15th or the 17th?

If you had to work, were you out there during the 3 sessions in December?

This was written because the people that did not show up and were OFF, basically flipped off the MEC, and said " I want you to negotiate a good contract for me, but I am not going to be a part of it.." These people gave the MEC, and thier fellow ASA Pilots a BIG F*$#K YOU Middle finger. So the MEC has every right to call them out. If you do not want to be a part of the "TOP TEN LIST" then get your butts out to the LEC/MEC meeting on the 28th.

I know everyone is not like ASA Driver with his RJDC agenda, and Oh Please with his CUSHY little lifestyle.. To bad more people dont read the boards...

 

[japhy]

Were you out there on the 15th or the 17th?

If you had to work, were you out there during the 3 sessions in December?

This was written because the people that did not show up and were OFF, basically flipped off the MEC, and said " I want you to negotiate a good contract for me, but I am not going to be a part of it.." These people gave the MEC, and thier fellow ASA Pilots a BIG F*$#K YOU Middle finger. So the MEC has every right to call them out. If you do not want to be a part of the "TOP TEN LIST" then get your butts out to the LEC/MEC meeting on the 28th.

I know everyone is not like ASA Driver with his RJDC agenda, and Oh Please with his CUSHY little lifestyle.. To bad more people dont read the boards...

No, I was out at any of the picketts. To tell the truth, when the MEC puts out unproffesional propaganda like the top ten list and the Kool aide cartoon, I don't want to be associated with them. If you want people to to come to these events you are going about it the wrong way.

 

[atrdriver]

No, I was out at any of the picketts. To tell the truth, when the MEC puts out unproffesional propaganda like the top ten list and the Kool aide cartoon, I don't want to be associated with them. If you want people to to come to these events you are going about it the wrong way.

Maybe so, but before the first picketing I was part of the team that attempted to call every pilot on the list. I had about 200 to call, and of the 200 names that I had about 190 were bad telephone numbers, and of the 10 that I did get hold of 1 said he was planning on picketing. IMO, if someone is not willing to stand up and help, in whatever way possible, then they have lost the right to b1tch about the current contract. I hear all the time in the lounge how bad our current contract is, and how people are sick of it being violated. I hear people talk about it, then ask them if they helped out by picketing on their days off. The number one answer that I hear is "no, I only have 12 days off this month, and I'm not giving one of them up for that". The MEC is looking for some way to get the pilots out to support our CNC. In this case they were attempting to use humor. But, if we can't even get out guys to update their telephone numbers with ALPA, then maybe we are out of luck.

 

[Ted Striker]

No, I was out at any of the picketts. To tell the truth, when the MEC puts out unproffesional propaganda like the top ten list and the Kool aide cartoon, I don't want to be associated with them. If you want people to to come to these events you are going about it the wrong way.

You're a sensitive fella, aren't ya? Cartoons and Top 10 lists make you feel all dirty? Wow...

 

[av8tor4239]

japhy:

You missed my whole point..

The point is, if people like you would get out to the event and help out, there would be no cartoons or "top ten list".

Your action, (rather inaction) is what forced the MEC to call YOU out.

Japhy.. How about attending the LEC meeting on march 28th and expressing your dissatisfaction with the top ten list.. you can also explain to the board, and your fellow pilots why you did not show up to picket!

You want an improvemnet of quality of life, but you dont want to put anything on the line to get it.. (too cold out there for ya?)

Sounds kind of like SPINELESS OH PLEASE!

 

[av8tor4239]

If you want people to to come to these events you are going about it the wrong way.

Ok, so calling you and asking for your support(thanks ATRdriver), sending you emails, and posting the events on the MEC website, not to mention ALPA national having an article in the Airline Pilot magazine about it, there were flyers in the crew lounge on concourse C and D. dont forget the new automated phone tree for VERY IMPORTANT MESSAGES from your MEC Plus all the P2P reps running around out there telling everyone that there is a picketing session coming up!

Is this the wrong way..?

You lazy sack.. we are not asking you to the picketing sessions via the "top ten" list or the kool aid cartoons.. these are the only excuses we could think up of why you did not want to come help the 30 or so pilots that are fighting to improve all of our lives..

 

[japhy]

japhy:

You missed my whole point..

The point is, if people like you would get out to the event and help out, there would be no cartoons or "top ten list".

First of all the top ten list and that cartoon have no place in a professional organization. I haven't seen anything as un-professional or childish come from the company. I don't see them as jokes. I find them personally insulting.

You want an improvemnet of quality of life, but you dont want to put anything on the line to get it.. (too cold out there for ya?)

Sounds kind of like SPINELESS OH PLEASE!

Where did I say I was so disatisfied with my quality of life. IF I was, I would do something about it. Of all the different companies I've worked for and professions I've had in my life, there are a lot worse working conditions out there, and much worse companies to work for. With the state of our industry I feel fortunate to have a good paying job (yes, I do just fine on what I make), have good health insurance, and more days off a month than the average 9-5er.

 

[MetroSheriff]

First of all the top ten list and that cartoon have no place in a professional organization. I haven't seen anything as un-professional or childish come from the company. I don't see them as jokes. I find them personally insulting.



Where did I say I was so disatisfied with my quality of life. IF I was, I would do something about it. Of all the different companies I've worked for and professions I've had in my life, there are a lot worse working conditions out there, and much worse companies to work for. With the state of our industry I feel fortunate to have a good paying job (yes, I do just fine on what I make), have good health insurance, and more days off a month than the average 9-5er.

Another management shill. What dept do you work in? A bored crew scheduler perhaps??? Get back to work....

 

[av8tor4239]

Where did I say I was so disatisfied with my quality of life. IF I was, I would do something about it. Of all the different companies I've worked for and professions I've had in my life, there are a lot worse working conditions out there, and much worse companies to work for. With the state of our industry I feel fortunate to have a good paying job (yes, I do just fine on what I make), have good health insurance, and more days off a month than the average 9-5er.

How do you think that you got that quality of life? Do you think that you have your good pay, good health insurance and your days off because managment wants you to have them? NO, these things were fought for by pilots before you and then fought for by pilots before them. You have what you have because of the Comair strike, the EAL Strike, the CAL strike, the UAL strike, and the hundreds of pilots that are not willing to lay down during the all important time of renegotiating a contract.

Please see my most recent thread http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=50545

This is from our most recent negotiations in the begining of this month. If managment has it their way, all the things you mentioned (health, pay, days off) will be reduced or taken away all together.

Unreal how many people are satisfied with status quo.. or less

 

[ASADriver]

Only March? We are into our THIRD year of talks!


When I was in law enforcement, we NEVER had contract talks last more then six months AND WE HAD A NO STRIKE CLAUSE, enforceable with criminal penalties.

Why did talks come to a head so quickly? Because the Patrolman were willing to work together to get a fair contract.

As far as unprofessional, how about this--kiss my a$$.

WOW, I guess you told him. Tell me Palerider, when you were in law enforcement were there other groups who were allowed to bid on the work? Having a monopoly on the work is far different than having to compete for the work.

 

[EMB170Pilot]

Question: The majority that have been speaking the last 3 pages, do you all represent ASA?


If so...........I'm disappointed in team unity

Come on!

 

[Palerider957]

ASA driver:

The apathy of our pilot group doesn't bother you? Two yeas ago I was gung ho for a solid contract or a strike. I am amazed when I talk to pilots who are still so dedicated to the company (single engine taxi, nursing broken airplanes home, calling times "on time" even when their planes are clearly late).

It's no wonder Management doesn't bargain in good faith, they don't have to. A large portion of our pilot group would be perfectly content to things to continue just the way they are.

Incidentally, as a Cop we did not have others bidding on our work, but we were CONSTANTLY threatened with layoffs. We still managed to hold the line.

 

[japhy]

Question: The majority that have been speaking the last 3 pages, do you all represent ASA?


If so...........I'm disappointed in team unity

Come on!

What team unity?? The union can rant and rave all day and I'd guess that about 10% of the pilots would agree with them. Only 30 guys showed up at the last pickett. Looks like the MEC has lots of support.

Another management shill. What dept do you work in? A bored crew scheduler perhaps??? Get back to work....

Think what you want...

 

[EMB170Pilot]

Thats just WRONG

 

[Tim47SIP]

Reason for everything!

This was written because the people that did not show up and were OFF, basically flipped off the MEC, and said " I want you to negotiate a good contract for me, but I am not going to be a part of it.." These people gave the MEC, and thier fellow ASA Pilots a BIG F*$#K YOU Middle finger. So the MEC has every right to call them out.

Maybe there is a reason for this. I have talked with a bunch of our pilots. What I get is that the chest thumpers on this web site are unequovocally the minority. Additionally, I have some very close freinds that were or are closely involved with the CNC and some of the horor stories I have heard are very upsetting. If I were queen for a day, I would select another CNC WITH EXPERIENCE in negotiating immediately. There was a lot more that was going on when the two CNC members were let go or quit in 2003 than was initially released. That is just the tip of the iceburg.

We have a new operating environment and we have to negotiate accordingly. Taking out the company for a few dollars an hour is not doing anyone any good. With the contract carriers that could easily undercut us, we need to be a little more realistic in our monitary demands. Tactics are everything. Learn when to fight your battles and when to manipulate your wars. For every new aircraft we take delivery of means 5 more new hires, 5 more FO's getting off of reserves, 5 more FO's almost doubeling their pay moving to the left seat, and 5 more CPT's getting off reserves. That equals HUGE QOL improvements. Problem is, it does not benifit some very senior individuals with an agenda.

 

[e120pilot]

Tim47SIP,

Great post! I am in no way a "company man", however I also don't think my union necessarily speaks for me. The problem is our union is a lot like what you see on this board. If you're not pounding your chest and demanding "Comair plus!", they're not interested in your opinion. I'm in no way saying that I think the company is doing a great job with negotiations, however I also don't think our union is realistic in what contract we can achieve. People, ASA is a part of one of the most unprofitable corporations in America right now in one of the worst times this industry has ever seen. This isn't the time to expect big gains in a new contract. Obviously, there are a lot of QOL improvements that we should get that won't cost much money, but we're just not going to see a huge improvement in our W2's. I'm not saying we need to just take whatever the company offers, however we also need to live to fight another day. I'm sure this isn't a popular opinion on this board, but as always it's mostly the vocal minority that is doing all the whining. The majority of ASA pilots have a more moderate view that is not reflected on here or by our MEC.

Fire away!

 

[BlackCoffee]

If $8 more an hour for a Captain and $5 more for an F/O is good enough to grow Comair than it's good enough for you guys. Delta owns them too. Quit thinking you will lose your job if you get a raise. Nobody is asking for $200 hr. In fact, you haven't even started negotiating the compensation section of your contract yet! Get informed and you will realize mngt is the larger lying arsehole.