ASA negotiations update

[John Pennekamp]

To me it sounds like you're revealing the inner thoughts of the negotiation comm, and maybe they didn't intend for you to publish these thoughts on a public message board. Perhaps they trusted you but you're putting it out anyway. It also, in my opinion, would allow the company to know what we're willing to give up. Not smart.

Hoser

Well, perhaps if members of the CNC weren't running their mouths in the crew lounge and on the jumpseat, then guys like me wouldn't know these things? And I would hope that our CNC is being honest and forthright with us. We have a right to know what's going on, and to know that our reps are doing what we elected them for. They need to be sure they respond to the changing goals and needs of our pilot group, not hold fast to a strategy designed 5 years ago.

I fail to see what the big secret is anyhow. Do you truly believe it's not known to management that we're at the endgame of what each side can give up? The endgame is always settled by horse trading.

Nobody said anything about WHAT the MEC was willing to give up. ASARJMAN claims the MEC isn't willing to give anything up from our table position, and I believe him. I opined that perhaps they should focus on scope plus what's on the table instead of a huge pay raise with retro.

That's nothing that's going to "sink negotiations", unless you're still holding out for a huge -700 pay increase, Hoser. Let's have a show of hands of how many pilots think that's possible and practical at this point.

 

[John Pennekamp]

The discussions between the negotiating committe and the MEC do not need to be displayed on this message board. You know that people on the management side read this stuff.

Tell that to YP.

 

[regionalcap]

Telling fellow pilots in the crew lounge is one thing, but putting it on this board for people like scott hall to see is another. I am glad they are telling fellow pilots what is going on. We want to hear. I just don't think you in turn should put what they say on this board.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Telling fellow pilots in the crew lounge is one thing, but putting it on this board for people like scott hall to see is another. I am glad they are telling fellow pilots what is going on. We want to hear. I just don't think you in turn should put what they say on this board.

It's pretty naive to think Scott needs to come here to know what's going on. I bet he gets a good laugh when he reads that.

 

[Texx]

Isn't it funny how people like John P and Joey Merchant (voted out of ALPA positions) are now trying to subvert ALPA, and campaign for their own agendas?

Come, come now. You have been around long enough to know that there are AND have been several people to push their own agenda.

Some people forget who they are working for and put themselves before everyone else.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Come, come now. You have been around long enough to know that there are AND have been several people to push their own agenda.

Some people forget who they are working for and put themselves before everyone else.

Maybe that's exactly why certain former System Board members no longer work for the MEC?

 

[regionalcap]

It's pretty naive to think Scott needs to come here to know what's going on. I bet he gets a good laugh when he reads that.

You are saying I am naive? How about keeping those little comments to yourself next time. I am just saying some things shouldn't be given away on this board.

 

[John Pennekamp]

You are saying I am naive? How about keeping those little comments to yourself next time. I am just saying some things shouldn't be given away on this board.

What comments? About you being naive?

 

[ASA_Aviator]

I agree with John. I think if a TA came around, most people would vote to approve it, even though it didn't have retro pay, etc. The "burn it down" attitude is stupid, and scary for people like me that actually want to keep my livelihood.

I think I'm a pretty average pilot at ASA, with average views, and I think that an industry leading contract is not in our own best interests. I just want a modest raise, with a commuter policy, and a few other QOL issues resolved. You know what, if we got that, it would be approved. Those of you who think you are in the majority are in for a surprise.

When the ALPA poll people called me, I too was surprised at the questions. Polling and statistics are FAR more about how the questions are asked, than how the people answer. With the right questions, you could make it sound as if Holocaust survivors supported Hitler. The questions that they asked gave no room for anything in the middle. Either you are for a strike, or against. There is no option for "I do not support a strike, but if we were to strike I would, in fact, do so." Either you are not going to vote to approve a TA, or you are. I wonder who makes up the questions? ALPA people, or the polling people?

Anyway, don't pay too much attention to those polls, as a statistically flawed poll means exactly, precisely nothing. If something isn't vetted properly, it doesn't matter how many people respond. Even if all 1700 pilots responded, it would mean nothing.

I'll get off of my soapbox now...

 

[doylehargraves]

why dont you guys forget retro pay and go for a higher rate? Tell them of all the millions you are saving them by not wanting retro pay but get a big boost in hourly rate.

 

[79%N1]

Put me in the category of wanting to get this finished, and believing job protection and other QOL issues are more important than industry leading pay rates....in fact, our 700 rates are already industry (if not DCI) leading. I do not wish to hold up the other gains for retro pay, which as a 700 pilot won't amount to much anyway. I'll trade them PBS and their retro pay for binding scope, or at least a guarantee that the planes we have on our certificate at DOS stay at ASA, plus an agreed to amount of Skywest Inc growth, much the way Comair binded Delta in their agreement. I believe we have made gains in other sections of the contract. I understand there still needs to be work done on the instructor section, as well as retirement (401K), but I'm not looking for industry leading rates. Bring the 50 rates up to Skywest's, agree on a bonus and agree to the damn thing!

 

[JoeMerchant]

Sorry to interrupt your chest thumping session, but just because Skywest Inc is making wild profits and can afford to reward management, doesn't mean they want to or will share it with us. What negotiating capitol do we have to get it? A release? Do you really think that's going to happen? You underestimate Jerry Atkin's power. And I hate to break it to you, but we don't have the 800 pound gorilla you think we have to get it either. That gorilla would be the pilot group. They are not behind the union, as evidenced by how many people are still going above & beyond to keep this place operating.

Attitudes like yours are what pushes the MEC to keep fighting indefinitely. If we get what you want, we will be out of a job in a year. Jerry has already said he will transfer the flying if we're 1% more expensive than Skywest. You do not want to be th top of the industry, because then everybody is taking shots at you. Ask Comair. Our -700 pay is already up there, and some of our work rules from the old contract still blow away stuff others get (premium, leg-by-leg cancellation, etc).

I would be happy with the current pay proposal plus binding scope. Retro is a minimal issue because we are NOT going to get a huge raise no matter what. I'd trade retro for scope.

But if you're a "max pay to the last day" kind of guy, then go for it. A growing majority of our pilots are tired of this and are ready to get what we can get and go back for more in three years. Assuming we're still here to fight in three years. On our current track, ASA will no longer exist.

Very well said.

 

[JoeMerchant]

You betcha attitudes like mine pushes the MEC, and there are plenty (the majority by Wilson polling) who feel the same way. You and Joey Merchant keep preaching your defeatist tactics here all you want. Majority rules, and right now pilots with my "attitude" are the majority, and will vote that way.

ASA will no longer exist! Geez, you guys crack me up with that scare tactic. ASA ain't going no where.

Pay To The Last day (if you buy off on John & Joey's rants)

IF attitudes like YOURS are pushing the MEC, then the MEC is being controlled by a vocal minority. You are not in the majority.

As for the "scare tactics", ask some of our fellow pilots who came from ACA, ALG, CCAIR, or TSA about "scare tactics". The record isn't good for high paying regionals in portfolios without scope..... ACA, AirWisc, ALG, PDT, CMR, Mesaba, CCAir.......

 

[JoeMerchant]

Isn't it funny how people like John P and Joey Merchant (voted out of ALPA positions) are now trying to subvert ALPA, and campaign for their own agendas?

JP and I don't have any "agenda" other than trying to secure scope at the regional level so that we may start to reverse the downward spiral. The problem is, some want to reverse the downward spiral before securing a foundation.... ie scope and job security. Without it, the rest is meaningless.

 

[JoeMerchant]

We all will get to vote on a TA in the near future. You can vote for how you feel, and I will vote the way I feel. And it has nothing to do with "chest-thumping". I support my MEC and Neg Comm. You get voted out, were a big supporter at one time, and now you're on your own agenda, that is, you and Joey. That's how your posts rae coming across. Deal with counterattacks as long as you post that way.

Actually I think he said the CNC has been trying to negotiate, but that the MEC had tied their hands. That sounds like he was supporting the CNC to me. Believe it or not, sometimes the MEC doesn't let the CNC do it's job, and tries to micro-manage. If that is indeed what happened, then that sounds very familiar.

 

[JoeMerchant]

If true, thanks for helping to tank negotiations.

Hoser

No, if true, thanks for keeping the membership informed. Without a release, your going to have to horsetrade.

 

[JoeMerchant]

To me it sounds like you're revealing the inner thoughts of the negotiation comm, and maybe they didn't intend for you to publish these thoughts on a public message board. Perhaps they trusted you but you're putting it out anyway. It also, in my opinion, would allow the company to know what we're willing to give up. Not smart.

Hoser

Or maybe it is a controlled leak so that the membership can find out what is really going on so that pressure can be put on the MEC to get this settled with some job security.

 

[JoeMerchant]

The discussions between the negotiating committe and the MEC do not need to be displayed on this message board. You know that people on the management side read this stuff.

If what JP says is true, and I suspect he knows what has been going on, then the information needs to be put out for the pilots to see. ASA management isn't calling any shots anyway. DAL management and Skywest management are in control.

 

[JoeMerchant]

It's pretty naive to think Scott needs to come here to know what's going on. I bet he gets a good laugh when he reads that.

Besides, Scott isn't the decision maker in these negotiations. Jerry and Jerry are....

 

[JoeMerchant]

I agree with John. I think if a TA came around, most people would vote to approve it, even though it didn't have retro pay, etc. The "burn it down" attitude is stupid, and scary for people like me that actually want to keep my livelihood.

I think I'm a pretty average pilot at ASA, with average views, and I think that an industry leading contract is not in our own best interests. I just want a modest raise, with a commuter policy, and a few other QOL issues resolved. You know what, if we got that, it would be approved. Those of you who think you are in the majority are in for a surprise.

When the ALPA poll people called me, I too was surprised at the questions. Polling and statistics are FAR more about how the questions are asked, than how the people answer. With the right questions, you could make it sound as if Holocaust survivors supported Hitler. The questions that they asked gave no room for anything in the middle. Either you are for a strike, or against. There is no option for "I do not support a strike, but if we were to strike I would, in fact, do so." Either you are not going to vote to approve a TA, or you are. I wonder who makes up the questions? ALPA people, or the polling people?

Anyway, don't pay too much attention to those polls, as a statistically flawed poll means exactly, precisely nothing. If something isn't vetted properly, it doesn't matter how many people respond. Even if all 1700 pilots responded, it would mean nothing.

I'll get off of my soapbox now...

I agree.... let your reps. know how you feel....

 

[VeeOne]

I agree with many of those that I fly with- current offering on pay with some strong, binding scope, QOL issues, and a sighing bonus. As for an agenda by our MEC, I wouldn't hesitate to think this for a second after watching a 5 minute rant on RETRO pay. The way the rant was going you would think he already spent it. The latest understanding of retro pay is that it will cost ASA 38 million, and be spread to everyone that was here when the contract became amendable- even to those that no longer work here.

Regarding the polling- it's a waste of time. I too believe the questions are rigged to project the desired outcome rather than fact. That is why I think writing the MEC is the only effective and persuasive way to get things going.

Good god Pennekamp- I can't believe I agree with you to the extend that I do, but I actually agree 100% to your viewpoint- and it's extremely well written and backed as well.

 

[~~~^~~~]

The idea that "retro pay" would extend to those who left ASA is a joke. Seriously, if you can't vote for a Rep., why do you think that Rep. is going to negotiate for you? As is, there is more talk of "bonus" money so that the 700 guys can get something out of this.

What about the folks that went to the 700, got displaced when SkyWest took our jets, then went back to the 700 when the Comair birds were transferred?

How would you do this?

 

[VeeOne]

The idea that "retro pay" would extend to those who left ASA is a joke. Seriously, if you can't vote for a Rep., why do you think that Rep. is going to negotiate for you? As is, there is more talk of "bonus" money so that the 700 guys can get something out of this.

What about the folks that went to the 700, got displaced when SkyWest took our jets, then went back to the 700 when the Comair birds were transferred?

How would you do this?

It starts with a Tylonol...........

 

[ohplease!]

No matter what happens, I want retro pay up to my date of separation (10/06). That is a lot of money on the table (for most at ASA) and if a company can stretch out negotiations until everyone leaves than where is the power of a union? So in other words, retro for everyone on the list at the opening of negotiations (I.E. amendable date) until conclusion, and for those that are gone, to our seperation date!!

thats the dumbest thing I've read NOT written by that idiot 737POS.

 

[VeeOne]

thats the dumbest thing I've read NOT written by that idiot 737POS.

I have talked to quite a few ALPA reps and this is actually their possition on retro pay. We, as a pilot group, need to voice our disapproval of this viewpoint. Let your reps know or else we will find ourselves on strike because of this. I am more in favor of a bonus, myself.

 

[BIGGOAT]

If you have left ASA then you have left any chance of retro money!


Goat

 

[Speedtape]

Actually I think he said the CNC has been trying to negotiate, but that the MEC had tied their hands. That sounds like he was supporting the CNC to me. Believe it or not, sometimes the MEC doesn't let the CNC do it's job, and tries to micro-manage. If that is indeed what happened, then that sounds very familiar.

It shouldn't sound familiar to you, as YOUR negotiation team ran amuck, purposely mislead and misinformed the MEC, and advanced your personal agenda of "pay for training" which benefited YOU and a minority of the pilot group. It was not high enough in the polling, according to several of the reps at that time, to have been put on the table at that last phase.

This is evidence of why YOU, and your tag team, a CNC that circumvented OVERSIGHT purposely to achieve YOUR personal agenda, should NEVER, NEVER serve this pilot group again!!!!!!!!! Anyone that would WASTE one minute of their time joining anything you try to lead needs to look at your history! But worst of all, YOU ARE A QUITTER!

 

[PCL_128]

Believe it or not, sometimes the MEC doesn't let the CNC do it's job, and tries to micro-manage.

As usual, you don't understand how ALPA works. The job of the MEC is to direct the CNC. The CNC doesn't have free reign to negotiate whatever they want. The MEC should set the goals, and it's up to the negotiating committee to achieve them. If the MEC sets retro as a major goal, then the CNC better negotiate for retro. No MEC would allow a CNC to go into negotiations without a firm framework of goals that must be achieved before coming to a TA.

Of course, judging by your history on the CNC, I'm not surprised that you don't understand how things are supposed to work.

 

[ASADFW7]

I agree if you leave ASA you are better off. I do not expect retro now that I am no longer an employee. The MEC negotiates for their employees. If any retro goes to anyone not at the company it would be only for retirees.

 

[ASARJMan]

It shouldn't sound familiar to you, as YOUR negotiation team ran amuck, purposely mislead and misinformed the MEC, and advanced your personal agenda of "pay for training" which benefited YOU and a minority of the pilot group. It was not high enough in the polling, according to several of the reps at that time, to have been put on the table at that last phase.

This is evidence of why YOU, and your tag team, a CNC that circumvented OVERSIGHT purposely to achieve YOUR personal agenda, should NEVER, NEVER serve this pilot group again!!!!!!!!! Anyone that would WASTE one minute of their time joining anything you try to lead needs to look at your history! But worst of all, YOU ARE A QUITTER!

I didn't want to stoop to joey's level again, but you hit it on the head. As Johnny P says, "I couldn't have said it better myself".