ASA Mediator Update

[goahead]

So about the mediator.... any news

 

[wms]

VeeOne,

The problem is that ALPA national is driving our negotiations right now. They want to prove that they can deliver a "trophy contract" to other regionals, specifically Skywest and Colgan. Our MEC Chairman, while a nice guy and well meaning, is easily swayed by ALPA national. This will only change when the regionals stand up to ALPA and threaten to leave. Until that time, expect more of the same and expect more flying to leave ASA..... I don't want to leave ALPA, but my patience is wearing thin.....

At the current rate, Skywest is going to be better without ALPA than with it... maybe we should start thinking about ourselves.....

I pay dues for ALPA to deliver me a trophy contract. That's what most of us want. The reason you didn't win is because you'd be willing to get us less to preserve your own ASA career. ALPA has done the polling, knows what we want, and what we're willing to do to get it. Someone in this industry needs to dig in and get things changed so things can get better for all regional pilots. I agree it's a risk, but progress or dignity won't come from being a coward. ALPA also realizes that it's harder to whipsaw two groups when they're both ALPA, and even on one list. If that wasn't true JA wouldn't be fighting so hard against it. The fact that JA wants us seperate for his own purposes should be reason enough for us to want to combine. In the long run SKYW,Inc would be a more formidable company. If this continues to drag out it will give SKYW more opportunity to transfer planes. We need to be released, get merged, and get this over with so we can get back to the business of competing with our competition and not our parent company. Stop trying to protect you own interests and put some bone in your spine.

 

[ohplease!]

I pay dues for ALPA to deliver me a trophy contract. That's what most of us want. The reason you didn't win is because you'd be willing to get us less to preserve your own ASA career. ALPA has done the polling, knows what we want, and what we're willing to do to get it. Someone in this industry needs to dig in and get things changed so things can get better for all regional pilots. I agree it's a risk, but progress or dignity won't come from being a coward. ALPA also realizes that it's harder to whipsaw two groups when they're both ALPA, and even on one list. If that wasn't true JA wouldn't be fighting so hard against it. The fact that JA wants us seperate for his own purposes should be reason enough for us to want to combine. In the long run SKYW,Inc would be a more formidable company. If this continues to drag out it will give SKYW more opportunity to transfer planes. We need to be released, get merged, and get this over with so we can get back to the business of competing with our competition and not our parent company. Stop trying to protect you own interests and put some bone in your spine.

you, my friend, are either overly optimistic or naieve...we ARE NOT going to be released. We are too small a piece of the pie to really matter in the grand scheme and everyone (read here GOVT./Politicians) are too eager to have good news to report to the people (voters) who are going to keep their gravy train rolling to allow "little'ole ASA" to derail things (strike).

Skywest is NOT going to go alpa; unless we can reach a deal that makes ASA a better place to send airplanes and start taking them from them (ala mesa/freedumb). Why would Skywest pilots want alpa? They're making more money already, not paying dues AND getting ALLLLL the new planes, routes AND bases. You're asking them to "fall on a sword" for us and it ain't gonna happen.

I'll say it again: we WILL NOT get released and Skywest WILL NOT go alpa. Our MEC must find some middle ground with job protections for us or we WILL become the next player out of this game of "dodge ball". period.

 

[601Pilot]

I'll say it again: we WILL NOT get released and Skywest WILL NOT go alpa. Our MEC must find some middle ground with job protections for us or we WILL become the next player out of this game of "dodge ball". period.

Then so be it, ohplease. Either we get released later this summer or the product continues to degrade. It's their choice.

 

[John Pennekamp]

I pay dues for ALPA to deliver me a trophy contract. That's what most of us want. The reason you didn't win is because you'd be willing to get us less to preserve your own ASA career. ALPA has done the polling, knows what we want, and what we're willing to do to get it. Someone in this industry needs to dig in and get things changed so things can get better for all regional pilots. I agree it's a risk, but progress or dignity won't come from being a coward. ALPA also realizes that it's harder to whipsaw two groups when they're both ALPA, and even on one list. If that wasn't true JA wouldn't be fighting so hard against it. The fact that JA wants us seperate for his own purposes should be reason enough for us to want to combine. In the long run SKYW,Inc would be a more formidable company. If this continues to drag out it will give SKYW more opportunity to transfer planes. We need to be released, get merged, and get this over with so we can get back to the business of competing with our competition and not our parent company. Stop trying to protect you own interests and put some bone in your spine.

That was humiliatingly naive.

1. You pay dues because you're required to. 10% of your dues goes to the MEC directly. less than 50% of it goes to contract negotiation and enforcement.

2. Alpa's polling is rigged. The questions are carefully crafted to get the desired responses. You will NEVER see an Alpa poll that does not blow Alpa's horn.

3. Someone needs to dig in? Where have you been for the last 4.5+ years? We dug in, and the rest of the army packed up and left us alone in the battlefield!

4. If it's harder to whipsaw two groups who both belong to Alpa, explain the intense CMR-ASA whipsaw of 3+ years ago. Or Mesa vs. the industry.

5. You said "If this continues to drag out it will give SKYW more opportunity to transfer planes. We need to be released, get merged, and get this over with so we can get back to the business of competing with our competition and not our parent company. You are 100% correct. Wouldn't that contradict your assertion that we should show courage and dig in? Which is it? Seems to me we tried and lost. The pilot group has not risen to the occasion and will not. They will do nothing more than shout about how we need a great contract and beat their chests. They will not stick their necks out to take action. The union needs to throw in the towel, take the company's last/best pay proposal, plus scope, and deliver this d@mn contract!!!

 

[John Pennekamp]

Skywest is NOT going to go alpa; unless we can reach a deal that makes ASA a better place to send airplanes and start taking them from them (ala mesa/freedumb). Why would Skywest pilots want alpa? They're making more money already, not paying dues AND getting ALLLLL the new planes, routes AND bases. You're asking them to "fall on a sword" for us and it ain't gonna happen.

I'll say it again: we WILL NOT get released and Skywest WILL NOT go alpa. Our MEC must find some middle ground with job protections for us or we WILL become the next player out of this game of "dodge ball". period.

At one point the Skywest drive was going well, but it seems to have fallen short of reaching a critical mass. In the beginning, the cards came in quickly, but have slowed to a trickle now. Making matters worse, many of the Alpa supporters who sent in cards have been recalled or left. Alpa has a year from last November to hold a vote. I believe it will be another close loss for Alpa.

Why would the Skywest pilots want the union? To them, the world is their oyster. Jerry and the boys in SGU have won the propaganda war on that front. But when the drive fails and they take a pay cut, followed by asset transfers, they'll wish they had the union. They don't realize that this is their last chance for a LONG time. Que sera.

Regarding our MEC, yes, they need to get off the dime and wrap this contract up. Take the pay proposal on the table in exchange for scope and get it signed and delivered. Enough is enough.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I disagree. You will not achieve an decertification because of the fear of the unknown. It is a legitimate fear... if you dump ALPA, you had better have something waiting in the wings. SAPA is not the answer! Our pilots will NEVER decertify ALPA unless something drastic happens... like a merger without seniority. They will not take the initiative. We have no group mentality at ASA.

Your even talking about decertification undermines your credibility with our pilots, because is sends a message about your alterior motives. Everyone knows you hate ALPA and would do anything to get even for what the reps did to you and Lynn. When you say decertification our pilots think "there he goes again" and move to the next post.

If you really feel that way, you should be saying "recall" instead of "decertification" The problem is that you tried that in the election and lost big. Clearly our pilots will shoot their mouths off here anonymously about our reps screwing up, but still vote for the popular party. I don't have an answer for that one.

I agree that a decertification is a long shot, and I agree that there has to be a "plan B".... something that ALPA doesn't seem to have.

Just to be more clear, my FIRST choice would be a unified ALPA with a unified combined ASA/Skywest pilot group. That would me first choice, and I believe the BEST choice.

That being said, I don't see that happening.

My second choice would be a single Skywest/ASA pilot group with an inhouse union. That would free us from the conflict of interest within ALPA. It may not be achievable, and it may just force ALPA to get it's $H!T together....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Agreed....

Decertification is a bigger unknown than the uncertainty that plagues us now. People want something known and comfortable. Joe Merchant has some good ideas, but to get them accomplished we need ALPA's help. We can not scare ALPA into action by threatening them. (if that could have been done, the RJDC would have already done it)

Don't know if you listened to SkyWest's conference call, but it was not a good quarter and there is not anything good on the horizon after the aircraft deliveries this year. SkyWest's competitors are more competitive and they are getting the flying. SkyWest, Inc. is starting to grumble about SkyWest's compensation.

While this sounds bad, it may have a silver lining. SkyWest may be pressured to dump the extra costs of running a redundant operation and te SkyWest pilots will likely warm up to ALPA when their compensation (most likely in the form of reduced bonus money) gets unilaterally changed.

It was interesting to hear SkyWest say that transferring airplanes cost them money and they quit because of the expenses involved. Soon, I believe, the SkyWest pilots will be whipsawed by the ASA pilots and things may swing the other direction.

ALPA could capitalize on this with scope language that favors ALPA members using something like the numbers currently on the table.

But without ALPA, I fear the whipsaw would only accelerate due to the lack of enforceable scope.

My good friend Fins, we agree on much, but I don't share your optimism that ALPA will change it's MO..... A leopard doesn't change it's spots.

A move to decertify ALPA and go with an in house union may be an "uncertainty", but the only "certain" about ALPA is that it has not even admitted that it has a problem, much less do anything positive to fix the problems....

 

[PCL_128]

At one point the Skywest drive was going well, but it seems to have fallen short of reaching a critical mass. In the beginning, the cards came in quickly, but have slowed to a trickle now.

That's pretty typical in any organizing drive. The cards come in quick from the guys that are already hardcore unionists, but it always slows down after that. You have to fight for the rest of the cards. It's not an easy process. Remember, we already have more cards than the NMB requires to hold a vote (by a significant number), but we want a large majority before petitioning for a vote.

Making matters worse, many of the Alpa supporters who sent in cards have been recalled or left.

Those cards are being removed from the count as the pilots leave. We know how many valid cards we have.

I believe it will be another close loss for Alpa.

I think you're wrong. I'm certainly not as confident about this one as I am about the Colgan drive, but I do think that we'll manage a majority.

Regarding our MEC, yes, they need to get off the dime and wrap this contract up. Take the pay proposal on the table in exchange for scope and get it signed and delivered. Enough is enough.

In other words, you've surrendered. You've let the management rats like JA beat you into submission. Pathetic.

 

[wms]

you, my friend, are either overly optimistic or naieve...we ARE NOT going to be released. We are too small a piece of the pie to really matter in the grand scheme and everyone (read here GOVT./Politicians) are too eager to have good news to report to the people (voters) who are going to keep their gravy train rolling to allow "little'ole ASA" to derail things (strike).

Skywest is NOT going to go alpa; unless we can reach a deal that makes ASA a better place to send airplanes and start taking them from them (ala mesa/freedumb). Why would Skywest pilots want alpa? They're making more money already, not paying dues AND getting ALLLLL the new planes, routes AND bases. You're asking them to "fall on a sword" for us and it ain't gonna happen.

I'll say it again: we WILL NOT get released and Skywest WILL NOT go alpa. Our MEC must find some middle ground with job protections for us or we WILL become the next player out of this game of "dodge ball". period.

We're not going to get scope, ever. For one thing JA will not give up the strongest tool he has. And secondly, for scope to work you have to own the flying. Getting scope from SKYW is meaningless when DAL controls where the flying will go, and we're not negotiating with DAL. The best defense for the whipsaw with SKYW is one list with a common union. The things we can fight for is QOL that means something, to be paid what we're worth and compensation for the company's foot dragging. And that will come at the last hour, if we have a little fortitude..

SKYW has admitted that morale is low and turnover is high. They realize to attract and retain qualified pilots they'll have to make the place more attractive.

 

[HelloNewman]

Mark my words the union drive will fail. We will all be laughing our asses off when the members of the OC and PCL_128 are scratching their heads wondering how another drive slipped away LOL. Don't worry PCL_128, his cronies, and all the OC members will be invited to my farewell ALPA BBQ in chicago.

 

[USCtrojan]

Mark my words the union drive will fail. We will all be laughing our asses off when the members of the OC and PCL_128 are scratching their heads wondering how another drive slipped away LOL. Don't worry PCL_128, his cronies, and all the OC members will be invited to my farewell ALPA BBQ in chicago.

I can't wait to be there!! I'll bring the beer and piss on your fire.

Trojan

 

[wms]

That was humiliatingly naive.

1. You pay dues because you're required to. 10% of your dues goes to the MEC directly. less than 50% of it goes to contract negotiation and enforcement.

2. Alpa's polling is rigged. The questions are carefully crafted to get the desired responses. You will NEVER see an Alpa poll that does not blow Alpa's horn.

3. Someone needs to dig in? Where have you been for the last 4.5+ years? We dug in, and the rest of the army packed up and left us alone in the battlefield!

4. If it's harder to whipsaw two groups who both belong to Alpa, explain the intense CMR-ASA whipsaw of 3+ years ago. Or Mesa vs. the industry.

5. You said "If this continues to drag out it will give SKYW more opportunity to transfer planes. We need to be released, get merged, and get this over with so we can get back to the business of competing with our competition and not our parent company. You are 100% correct. Wouldn't that contradict your assertion that we should show courage and dig in? Which is it? Seems to me we tried and lost. The pilot group has not risen to the occasion and will not. They will do nothing more than shout about how we need a great contract and beat their chests. They will not stick their necks out to take action. The union needs to throw in the towel, take the company's last/best pay proposal, plus scope, and deliver this d@mn contract!!!

I don't care how the money's divided, I pay it and expect alot. ALPA lacks alot I know. They blew my grievance, but I want them to fight hard on this contract until all options are exhausted. I've said all along that our 700 rates won't move, but we should do better on the 200. I've been here for 7 years, 4 on reserve, and have had to take alot of grief that even affected the rest of my family. And I'm a good employee and expect to be treated like it. No longer can you just do a good job and get the pay and QOL that's fair without fighting for it. So I'm willing to fight, and hopefully the mediator will release us eventually. Whether you want pay, retro, QOL or scope, the company isn't going to give a thing until the 11th hour. They're not going to work with us on scope any more than any other issue. We're going to have to be released no matter what the key issues are. Both of us being ALPA carriers isn't enough, we need to have one list. That will take care of scope. People think that if we change the issues from money to scope that the company will all of the sudden settle the contract, and that's just not true. So if it comes to fighting, I'll fight for what puts money in my pocket. That's why we need to be on one list. That way if planes are tranferred you can bid across with them. But hearing people wanting to settle on alot less after 4 1/2 years of getting beaten up is just too much. The least we deserve is 100% retro after all this time.

 

[PCL_128]

Mark my words the union drive will fail. We will all be laughing our asses off when the members of the OC and PCL_128 are scratching their heads wondering how another drive slipped away LOL. Don't worry PCL_128, his cronies, and all the OC members will be invited to my farewell ALPA BBQ in chicago.

I have my own cronies now? Cool.

I've got a better idea, NewWoman. How 'bout you come out to the next ALPA organizing event at ORD and we can talk about this in person. I should be at the event on the 30th representing ALPA, so come on by and we'll see if you'll say the same crap in front of your peers that you say on this board. You game?

 

[Tomct]

I have my own cronies now? Cool.

I've got a better idea, NewWoman. How 'bout you come out to the next ALPA organizing event at ORD and we can talk about this in person. I should be at the event on the 30th representing ALPA, so come on by and we'll see if you'll say the same crap in front of your peers that you say on this board. You game?

You hear that....NeWoman just pee'd his pants!:laugh:

 

[CFIT]

I have my own cronies now? Cool.

I've got a better idea, NewWoman. How 'bout you come out to the next ALPA organizing event at ORD and we can talk about this in person. I should be at the event on the 30th representing ALPA, so come on by and we'll see if you'll say the same crap in front of your peers that you say on this board. You game?

So are you going to tell all the SkyWest pilots what ALPA has done for the regionals lately?

How long will that take, 3 seconds?

Get a "trophy contract" for ASA and scope, and then talk the talk. Until then it's all BS.

Talk is cheap, right now it's all ALPA has.
(cheap if you consider 2% cheap)

 

[HelloNewman]

I have my own cronies now? Cool.

I've got a better idea, NewWoman. How 'bout you come out to the next ALPA organizing event at ORD and we can talk about this in person. I should be at the event on the 30th representing ALPA, so come on by and we'll see if you'll say the same crap in front of your peers that you say on this board. You game?

I will have to check my schedule but why not. I am happy to tell anyone in the cockpit my views on the issue. If anyone thinks 50%+1 of the pilots here want ALPA they are sorely out of touch. Your time would be much better spent trying to get your own company a better contract. I wish you luck with your pinnacle contract. The stalled talks are quite telling of how tied ALPAs hands are. The laws are in favor of the company period.

SkyWest pilots are a lost cause because the majority simply doesn't want ALPA. In fact quite a few members on the OC are actively trying to leave as we speak. Unfortuately the effort has just been one step behind so far. It is quite telling when ALPA has enough cards to hold an election but obviously doesn't feel they can win at this time. They want to drag this out as long as they can because they have obviously not convinced the majority yet.

 

[Exskydiverdrivr]

I have my own cronies now? Cool.

I've got a better idea, NewWoman. How 'bout you come out to the next ALPA organizing event at ORD and we can talk about this in person. I should be at the event on the 30th representing ALPA, so come on by and we'll see if you'll say the same crap in front of your peers that you say on this board. You game?

Newwoman isn't really in ORD. I suspect he holds a very high position in SGU- Or wants to Bootlick his way into one. He will NOT come to a meeting. You Don't Speak for All Of US Clown.

 

[HelloNewman]

Newwoman isn't really in ORD. I suspect he holds a very high position in SGU- Or wants to Bootlick his way into one. He will NOT come to a meeting. You Don't Speak for All Of US Clown.

I definately do not speak for everyone, just the majority. Why don't you come to my farewell ALPA BBQ in Chicago when the union drive fails? I promise I will provide much better food and drink than ALPA does at their thing. Lips and buttholes just do not cut the mustard. ALPA is supposed to wine us and dine us not serve crappy hot dogs/hamburgers. If they want all our money we should be getting fine wines, champange and lobster every week. I will provide the finest steaks, lobster and booze for my goodbye ALPA BBQ.

 

[Exskydiverdrivr]

Since the majority of cards ARE in - I'd say that you DON'T speak for the majority either. But tell me- If the drive should fail-Will all this fine food be on the SKW credit card?

 

[HelloNewman]

Since the majority of cards ARE in - I'd say that you DON'T speak for the majority either. But tell me- If the drive should fail-Will all this fine food be on the SKW credit card?

Oh but I thought the cards were just for intrest only saying you wanted to hold a election? ALPA has told us themselves that the cards do not equal a yes vote for the union, or did they lie to us again? If the majority wants ALPA why don't they hold an election? The OC seems to be a bit hessitant to hold an election. An OC member himself stated he doesn't think it will pass. In 1999 he said about 3/4 of the pilots sent in their cards and the drive still failed. That was when there were not nearly as many pilots as there are today. A lot of hardcore union supporters have thankfully already left.

I think this union drive is simply a way for pilots who feel they have been wronged by the company to try and hurt the company. Revenge is definately on a few of the more vocal OC members minds. I have to ask again why the worry on holding an election? They have been collecting cards since the end of september and now the cards coming in have slowed to a trickle. ALPA says that the cards are compared to the number of people who quit every month. I thought that information was confidential and only the NMB knows who has filled out cards are not? Why is it the unions buisness who has filled out a card or not?

There are a lot of unanswered questions. When the union drive fails I invite all union and non union supporters to join me in Chicago. We can all have a nice logical discussion. It will be a healing process for the members of the OC to move forward instead of wonder how another union drive failed. I vow to serve champange, lobster, salmon, fine steaks and other good food. It will be a BBQ that would blow ALPA BBQs out of the water any day of the week. How it is funded is not important since money is not an issue for me. It would be personally funded by me and not by the company. I have no contacts in SGU. This is just one pilot out of many against the union drive.

 

[scarlet]

A move to decertify ALPA and go with an in house union may be an "uncertainty", but the only "certain" """about ALPA is that it has not even admitted that it has a problem,"""" much less do anything positive to fix the problems....

Seems ALPA and Bush have the same disease !!!! At least about one thing...


Oh Please --you hit it on the HEAD (again) why would Skywest fall on a sword for ASA pilots????

ONE LIST !!!

 

[scarlet]

Skywest around in 5-10 years= 100%

ASA around in 5-10 years=20%

????

 

[flylowman]

Put up or shut up.

Oh but I thought the cards were just for intrest only saying you wanted to hold a election? ALPA has told us themselves that the cards do not equal a yes vote for the union, or did they lie to us again? If the majority wants ALPA why don't they hold an election? The OC seems to be a bit hessitant to hold an election. An OC member himself stated he doesn't think it will pass. In 1999 he said about 3/4 of the pilots sent in their cards and the drive still failed. That was when there were not nearly as many pilots as there are today. A lot of hardcore union supporters have thankfully already left.

I think this union drive is simply a way for pilots who feel they have been wronged by the company to try and hurt the company. Revenge is definately on a few of the more vocal OC members minds. I have to ask again why the worry on holding an election? They have been collecting cards since the end of september and now the cards coming in have slowed to a trickle. ALPA says that the cards are compared to the number of people who quit every month. I thought that information was confidential and only the NMB knows who has filled out cards are not? Why is it the unions buisness who has filled out a card or not?

There are a lot of unanswered questions. When the union drive fails I invite all union and non union supporters to join me in Chicago. We can all have a nice logical discussion. It will be a healing process for the members of the OC to move forward instead of wonder how another union drive failed. I vow to serve champange, lobster, salmon, fine steaks and other good food. It will be a BBQ that would blow ALPA BBQs out of the water any day of the week. How it is funded is not important since money is not an issue for me. It would be personally funded by me and not by the company. I have no contacts in SGU. This is just one pilot out of many against the union drive.

What if it passes? Are you going to work for a union company? Which union do you think will be at your next job? Are you just going to retire at SKYW?

 

[HelloNewman]

What if it passes? Are you going to work for a union company? Which union do you think will be at your next job? Are you just going to retire at SKYW?

I don't plan on ever working for a union company. That is why I came to SkyWest. I would work for JetBlue as long as they keep the union away. If the union passes I won't leave just because they are there. It is the same thing with the union guys. I guarantee you they will not leave if the drive fails.

 

[scott hall]

Hello Newman,

Once the ALPA drive fails and Jerry integrates us, I hope you will stop by to pay me a visit. I can use a guy with your ideals.

 

[79%N1]

Would you guy please quit quoting Newmey in your posts, most of us have his posts ignored and don't care to see them in your reply posts.

Thanks much.

P.S If everyone ignores him, he will be forced to stop posting, because nobody will be listening!

 

[PCL_128]

Oh but I thought the cards were just for intrest only saying you wanted to hold a election? ALPA has told us themselves that the cards do not equal a yes vote for the union, or did they lie to us again?

Nope, no lies. The cards do not equal a vote. The vote is done by secret ballot and monitored by the NMB after ALPA petitions for the vote and turns in the cards.

ALPA says that the cards are compared to the number of people who quit every month. I thought that information was confidential and only the NMB knows who has filled out cards are not?

No, you've got your facts wrong (as usual). The Skywest OC doesn't have access to the list of people that have turned in cards. The ALPA staff and reps do, however. We are not allowed to share that information with the OC members, with management, or with anyone else. The NMB doesn't get the cards until after ALPA petitions for a vote. After that, we turn all of the cards over to the NMB, they verify the validity of them, and then they start the voting process.

I look forward to meeting you at the ALPA event in ORD.