ASA LINES on 10th

[ASA_Aviator]

1. Not a crappy attitude... don't play that card with me. My attitude is realistic. They're whining that they had to take a pay cut when the difference between what they were making and what their fellow line pilots were making was larger than the yearly pay of the FOs they were teaching!

Also, you're comparing apples to oranges with my willingness to take a pay cut. I'm a line pilot. If I take a cut everyone takes a cut. The IPs/LCAs are separate. They still get paid more than the line pilots do. Just not as much as they used to. If they don't think the money is good enough to justify the work, then by all means they should step down. Others would gladly do it, myself included.

2. "New cadre of inexperienced LCP's"? Now who has a "crappy attitude to have about fellow pilots"? So you're saying that the training department is too incompetent to properly train the new LCPs, and the new LCPs aren't good enough to get themselves up to speed before conducting IOE?

No, I'm saying that there are LCPs with over 20 years of teaching experience in the airlines, and if you replace that with a new captain with 500 hours PIC, you are by default going to lose something in the quality of instruction.

Do you maintain that the quality of instruction would remain the same if you replaced experienced LCPs with inexperienced ones?

I think most LCPs were willing to take either a pay cut, or a quality of life cut, but not both. That is a problem here. Not to mention that there are still IPs in the training department crediting 175 or more hours per month. Why aren't they taking a pay cut with the LCPs? Why can an IP in a sim make $14,000 in ONE MONTH, but an LCP with lives at risk and his ticket on the line make such a large amount less?

Hello, those guys in training are making in two months what their trainees make in an entire year...

 

[goahead]

Why can an IP in a sim make $14,000 in ONE MONTH, but an LCP with lives at risk and his ticket on the line make such a large amount less?

Perfectly said

 

[John Pennekamp]

No, I'm saying that there are LCPs with over 20 years of teaching experience in the airlines, and if you replace that with a new captain with 500 hours PIC, you are by default going to lose something in the quality of instruction.

So I guess we should place a moratorium on retirements and resignations in the name of safety and quality. You are still saying that you have no faith in our training and standardization department to do their jobs. If you believe in standardization, then there should be no difference between the two. Oh, and those experienced 20 year guys weren't born that way.

Do you maintain that the quality of instruction would remain the same if you replaced experienced LCPs with inexperienced ones?

Yes. The learning curve isn't that steep. I also have faith in our training department to train and check the new LCPs properly. Have you ever been a CFI? If so, did you turn away students when you were a new CFI because you didn't feel you were as good as the more experienced CFIs?

I think most LCPs were willing to take either a pay cut, or a quality of life cut, but not both. That is a problem here. Not to mention that there are still IPs in the training department crediting 175 or more hours per month. Why aren't they taking a pay cut with the LCPs? Why can an IP in a sim make $14,000 in ONE MONTH, but an LCP with lives at risk and his ticket on the line make such a large amount less?

Hello, those guys in training are making in two months what their trainees make in an entire year...

Point? With all of the attrition at this company, there are plenty of openings in the training department. The LCAs are welcome to apply for these positions if they are so inclined. They don't because they don't want to. They'd rather go back to their sweetheart deal of collecting 120 hours of -700 pay for flying a regular line and doing 20 hours of IOE a month. Very little sympathy.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Perfectly said

The disparity between the actual IPs and the LCAs in pay is what we should be addressing here, not the LCA pay cut.

I wonder if CM lobbying the union (and participating in negotiations) had anything to do with the IPs keeping their deal, and the LCAs not? They could have cut the IPs pay slightly and given the LCAs more to split the difference.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

Also, you're comparing apples to oranges with my willingness to take a pay cut. I'm a line pilot. If I take a cut everyone takes a cut. The IPs/LCAs are separate. They still get paid more than the line pilots do. Just not as much as they used to. If they don't think the money is good enough to justify the work, then by all means they should step down. Others would gladly do it, myself included.quote]

What you're saying here is that if the management can find someone to do it for less, they should. Don't you think that attitude would work equally well for the line pilots? (In fact, I think it has been used)

As far as the disparity is concerned, I agree with you on that. That should be addressed in a side-letter, along with the other concerns.

 

[John Pennekamp]

What you're saying here is that if the management can find someone to do it for less, they should. Don't you think that attitude would work equally well for the line pilots? (In fact, I think it has been used)

As far as the disparity is concerned, I agree with you on that. That should be addressed in a side-letter, along with the other concerns.

That's not at all what I said. Try to pay attention this time.

The union AND the company agreed that the LCAs were being overcompensated. Why they agreed to that is up for discussion. It has nothing to do with "management looking for a cheaper option". This left the LCAs with a choice of continuing or resigning. Whining about it was never an option. This in a nutshell is my point.

As you stated, what we should be discussing the disparity between the LCAs and the full-fledged IPs.

 

[wms]

Training and standards are separate. LCPs bid and fly the line, and train in the a/c. They are not home every night.

The paycut that they took is huge, and only through giving up days off can they make some of it back, especially if there is less OE to be done.

Right now they are not letting LCPs pick up on days off because there is nothing to pick up. It's not like you can just go to the airport and do a stan ride to pad your paycheck. Most LCPs are not senior enough to hold more than 12 days off anyway, so even if there is work, you can't pick any up.

 

[wms]

Look, LCPs, you can cry in your beer how the union "screwed" you or you can get over it. Either way, the deal is done.

The union represents the majority. You are a slim minority who enjoyed a sweetheart deal for a long time. Its end was inevitable.

If you were doing it for the money, then you probably don't need to be doing it anyhow. Go ahead and do us a favor by returning to the line. I'm sure they will find plenty of line pilots willing to replace you and work for the little bit extra money that isn't good enough for you.

The same could be said about any pilot. If you're flying for the satisfaction of your job you should've just taken the first thing the company offered and been happy to do what you love for less!

 

[wms]

Also, you're comparing apples to oranges with my willingness to take a pay cut. I'm a line pilot. If I take a cut everyone takes a cut. The IPs/LCAs are separate. They still get paid more than the line pilots do. Just not as much as they used to. If they don't think the money is good enough to justify the work, then by all means they should step down. Others would gladly do it, myself included.

Not true. Some nap lines will pay more than IOE.

 

[Papa Woody]

Some nap lines will pay more than IOE.

Ya think so?

Try: nap lines will all pay minimum guarantee. Period.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Ya think so?

Try: nap lines will all pay minimum guarantee. Period.

Beat me to it.

Line pilots did give concessions in many areas. I fail to understand why the training department feels it shouldn't have.

Why should 1600 pilots have fallen on our swords so that 100 or so instructors and LCAs can continue to be among the highest paid in the regional industry? You are all still paid well.

As I said before, very little sympathy. I hope those of you who can't stand it quit the training department and come back to the line. You've been over there in Fairy Tale Land too long.

 

[www.]

Ya think so?

Try: nap lines will all pay minimum guarantee. Period.

Try 50% less nap lines in Feb.

 

[shamrock]

Hey John, I'll be down at your park next week doing some diving. Can I get a discount if I mention that I work with you?

Sorry to change the subject, just trying to break up the love-fest here. You may now resume your 'discussion"......

 

[ASA_Aviator]

That's not at all what I said. Try to pay attention this time.

The union AND the company agreed that the LCAs were being overcompensated. Why they agreed to that is up for discussion. It has nothing to do with "management looking for a cheaper option". This left the LCAs with a choice of continuing or resigning. Whining about it was never an option. This in a nutshell is my point.

As you stated, what we should be discussing the disparity between the LCAs and the full-fledged IPs.

No, you pay attention. The point you made was that the LCPs, if they don't like their pay, should step aside and let people who are willing to undercut them take the position.

That is the SAME thing saying, "If you don't like your new pay structure, shove it. We can get people to take your jobs for less." Isn't that exactly the sort of thing that we, as union members, have been fighting?

I'm not saying that the company and the union didn't agree to screw the LCPs. We all know that the union hung them out to dry, that isn't the question.

My point was merely that you should re-evaluate your position, since it is hypocritical. The principle is what is important here. If it can happen to the LCPs, it can happen to us.

And, by the way, the LCPs are on the line now, or did you miss that memo? They bid lines just like the rest of us. Training and Standards are different departments now. Pay attention.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

The same could be said about any pilot. If you're flying for the satisfaction of your job you should've just taken the first thing the company offered and been happy to do what you love for less!

Exactly.