ASA Integration Days

[Poppa Hodax]

Did Integration Days go away with the new T/A?

 

[SiuDude]

Is ASA the best airline in the world?

 

[OCP]

Did Integration Days go away with the new T/A?

no.......

 

[dojetdriver]

I thought I heard this one time.

Can you guys check off a box saying not to fill your integration days? before the bid even closes? Then, they get filled in reverse seniority order?

 

[John Pennekamp]

I thought I heard this one time.

Can you guys check off a box saying not to fill your integration days? before the bid even closes? Then, they get filled in reverse seniority order?

That works great except that they break up all the integration trips into one round trip for everyone.

 

[Leroy Smith]

I thought I heard this one time.

Can you guys check off a box saying not to fill your integration days? before the bid even closes? Then, they get filled in reverse seniority order?

Integration Preference:
( ) I Prefer to fly.

I think that's about all the choice we currently get.
I dont know how other non-PBS companies do it, but our system seems pretty silly.

 

[JoeMerchant]

They went away for a certain percentage of lines.... don't remember exactly what the percentage is..... I think it was 15% or 20% of the lines won't have them.

The only way to totally get rid of them is to go with PBS.....

 

[John Pennekamp]

The only way to totally get rid of them is to go with PBS.....

Not really. Then the whole month will be integration.

Unless you're really senior, your line will be composed of flying randomly assigned by the company.

Of course, you're really senior, so way to look out for #1.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Not really. Then the whole month will be integration.

Unless you're really senior, your line will be composed of flying randomly assigned by the company.

Of course, you're really senior, so way to look out for #1.

JP,

I don't want PBS..... I like turning 1 week of vacation into 3 weeks of vacation. I am just trying to interject some facts into the discussion....

I don't want PBS...... however it is coming at some point...

There are good things and bad things about PBS....

One of the good things is that integration goes away.....

As far as looking out for #1, that is a fact of this business.... most of us are looking out for #1..... Whether you agree with it or not, it is a reality....

But in this case, it isn't about me, as I really don't want PBS.... in my case, the positives don't outweight the negatives...

 

[John Pennekamp]

But in this case, it isn't about me, as I really don't want PBS.... in my case, the positives don't outweight the negatives...

Ok, just checking. It sounded like you were in favor of it. I do agree, however, that it is coming eventually.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Ok, just checking. It sounded like you were in favor of it. I do agree, however, that it is coming eventually.

Common mistake..... Many of my opinions aren't what I "want", rather they reflect what I believe to be reality.... Sometimes people confuse the two....

Take this agreement for example..... it is hardly a "victory", when you consider the 700 rates, FO rates, rigs, and scope. However I am voting Yes and think we need to switch gears and get to the root problem of why our 700 rates didn't keep up with inflation or Horizon.....

We don't have the leverage some think we do.... if we did, this agreement would be better..... let's work on getting our leverage back.....

 

[John Pennekamp]

Common mistake..... Many of my opinions aren't what I "want", rather they reflect what I believe to be reality.... Sometimes people confuse the two....

Take this agreement for example..... it is hardly a "victory", when you consider the 700 rates, FO rates, rigs, and scope. However I am voting Yes and think we need to switch gears and get to the root problem of why our 700 rates didn't keep up with inflation or Horizon.....

We don't have the leverage some think we do.... if we did, this agreement would be better..... let's work on getting our leverage back.....

The only agreements I can think of in recent history that HAVE been a complete victory were Comair, Delta and United in 2000/2001. And we all know how those agreements ended up.

I think we did a good job of shooting high, but not too high. The -700 rates are the highest except for Horizon. Horizon makes more because they are a niche carrier. They don't compete with anyone and fly places no one else goes. You know full well that they aren't a fair comparison to what we do... apples vs oranges.

But I suspect you only bring it up to rub the pilot groups faces in it again for all of the chest thumping. Why do you keep doing that?

 

[PBRstreetgang]

The only way to totally get rid of them is to go with PBS.....

Wrong answer, with PBS it will guarantee you will have them jammed onto your schedule via the "CN" process. This is how it is at SKYW. PBS is great if you bid in the top 10%, everyone else will feel the pain. SKYW Inc. uses a PBS software package that was not used by another airline, but was in fact was rejected by several. There is no transparency at all, in fact it appears to be magic. Case in point, the the guy who bids #1 in one of out largest domiciles(200+ Capts), he bids specific pairing with commuting in mind. A few months back he was awarded a full month of non-commutable pairings, pairings that were no where on his bid. Magic, who knows! Run as far and fast as you can from PBS as SKYW offers it!!!
PBR

 

[JoeMerchant]

The only agreements I can think of in recent history that HAVE been a complete victory were Comair, Delta and United in 2000/2001. And we all know how those agreements ended up.

I think we did a good job of shooting high, but not too high. The -700 rates are the highest except for Horizon. Horizon makes more because they are a niche carrier. They don't compete with anyone and fly places no one else goes. You know full well that they aren't a fair comparison to what we do... apples vs oranges.

But I suspect you only bring it up to rub the pilot groups faces in it again for all of the chest thumping. Why do you keep doing that?

Comair was hardly a "victory".... The strike went 89 days because passengers and aircraft were transferred to other carriers, including ALPA carriers..... The CMR pilots never made up what they lost, then they ended up losing much of what they did gain because of the "portfolio whipsaw"....

I agree that we can't compare ourselves to Horizon, however if we could put a stop to the whipsaw, then we could compare ourselves to Horizon..... ASA can afford to pay Horizon rates, so can Delta and Skywest..... They don't have to however because of the RFP system.... We need to start taking a "big picture" look at things......

 

[John Pennekamp]

We need to start taking a "big picture" look at things......

Or a "realistic" look at things. Like it or not, RFPs and whipsaw are here to stay. You can't wish a perfect world into existence, no matter how hard you try to or want to.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Or a "realistic" look at things. Like it or not, RFPs and whipsaw are here to stay. You can't wish a perfect world into existence, no matter how hard you try to or want to.

Not true.... Brand scope written into mainline agreements would start to put the genie back in the bottle....

However if we CHOOSE not put a stop, then we must accept the fact that competition will drive wages and work rules down.....

You can't have it both ways.....

 

[John Pennekamp]

Not true.... Brand scope written into mainline agreements would start to put the genie back in the bottle....

But you and I both know it ain't gonna happen. The mess at US Air is proof of this.

The mainline pilots are only concerned with themselves, and they have tunnel vision in that regard. This issue isn't even on the radar screen to most mainline pilot groups.

However if we CHOOSE not put a stop, then we must accept the fact that competition will drive wages and work rules down.....

You can't have it both ways.....

We aren't the ones making the choice. It's the mainline pilots as represented by their EVPs on the Executive Board. They have us outgunned 3-1.

They aren't the ones facing the whipsaw, we are, so what motivation do they have to give concessions to help the RJ trash? None.

Their only solution is to put more and more garbage band-aid scope provisions in the mainline contracts. Provisions that will be conceded or overturned later, mind you. ALPA will not change because the system is fundamentally broken. That's one of the things you're right about.

 

[sstearns2]

Wrong answer, with PBS it will guarantee you will have them jammed onto your schedule via the "CN" process. This is how it is at SKYW. PBS is great if you bid in the top 10%, everyone else will feel the pain. SKYW Inc. uses a PBS software package that was not used by another airline, but was in fact was rejected by several. There is no transparency at all, in fact it appears to be magic. Case in point, the the guy who bids #1 in one of out largest domiciles(200+ Capts), he bids specific pairing with commuting in mind. A few months back he was awarded a full month of non-commutable pairings, pairings that were no where on his bid. Magic, who knows! Run as far and fast as you can from PBS as SKYW offers it!!!
PBR

OK, You can call the PBS hotline and they (the company paid SAPA rep) will tell you exactly why the system assigned trips the way it did. The system produces a report for each line that details how it was created. The top couple people at my domicile custom build their schedule and get exactly that schedule every time.

I personally like PBS. I've been bidding in the bottom 20% of lineholders in the same seat and domicile both before and after PBS and I can tell you that my schedules are better with PBS. I haven't found many people that want to go back to hard lines.

The problem of being forced to work more than you want to was the same with hard lines. I remember bids where every line had 11 or 12 days off and 100+ hours of credit. I would say that this is less of a problem with PBS than it was with hard lines, at least in my experience.

Scott

 

[Gr82Aviate]

OK, You can call the PBS hotline and they (the company paid SAPA rep) will tell you exactly why the system assigned trips the way it did. The system produces a report for each line that details how it was created. The top couple people at my domicile custom build their schedule and get exactly that schedule every time.

I personally like PBS. I've been bidding in the bottom 20% of lineholders in the same seat and domicile both before and after PBS and I can tell you that my schedules are better with PBS. I haven't found many people that want to go back to hard lines.

The problem of being forced to work more than you want to was the same with hard lines. I remember bids where every line had 11 or 12 days off and 100+ hours of credit. I would say that this is less of a problem with PBS than it was with hard lines, at least in my experience.

Scott

Your experience, has not been my experience! IE PBS and forced CN pairings suck!!

 

[JoeMerchant]

But you and I both know it ain't gonna happen. The mess at US Air is proof of this.

The mainline pilots are only concerned with themselves, and they have tunnel vision in that regard. This issue isn't even on the radar screen to most mainline pilot groups.

We have about half the votes at the BOD.... time to raise a little he!! in Vegas or wherever.... Time for some Gypsies in the Palace....

We aren't the ones making the choice. It's the mainline pilots as represented by their EVPs on the Executive Board. They have us outgunned 3-1.

I think you mean the EC... anyway, we have more pull on the EB and especially the BOD.... plus a little negative press would look bad.... What about some full page ads in the papers.... Self help can be used within the union....

They aren't the ones facing the whipsaw, we are, so what motivation do they have to give concessions to help the RJ trash? None.

Their only solution is to put more and more garbage band-aid scope provisions in the mainline contracts. Provisions that will be conceded or overturned later, mind you. ALPA will not change because the system is fundamentally broken. That's one of the things you're right about.

Your as bad as the mainline pilots.... they are facing the whipsaw... It brings down their domestic pay and causes their jobs to be outsourced.... We ALL have a vested interest in fixing this problem...