ASA: Growth or Contract?

[FL990]

In many of the previous posts, there has been a common thread discussed among ASA pilots. One is the seemingly eternal upgrade that many pilots hired in the last 3 years are facing and the other is the seemingly (actual) eternal contract negotiation that we are undertaking at this time. From these conversations stem other topics such as blatant and intentional contract violations by the company (especially in the scheduling department), and the suggestions of incompetent management.

So, its time for the real question....Growth or quality of life? And frankly, this question $UCK$, because we shouldn't have to choose...we should be able to do both, but is this really possible. Entertain these thoughts for one second..

Is now really the time to go for the contract? Before everyone blows up, I'm not saying that it isn't...I'm asking a rhetorical question..because our discussions have been pointing, whether we like it or not, to two different problems which unfortunately may not be able to be solved simultaneously. On one hand we want growth, but on the other, we want our quality of life to increase to that equal to a "real airline" (whatever that means).

Lets look at our pilot group for a second. As I am typing this, I am looking over our current seniority list...and what sticks out the most is this: 70% of our pilots were hired in the last 5 1/2 years.......70% between 1999 and now. This company has been around over 25 years and basically tripled in size in a five year period. Now, heres an analogy. Anyone who knows anything about the stock market will tell you what....buy ...LOW, and sell HIGH......yet, temptation always sucks us into buying right when the stock is ripe, JUST BEFORE IT TANKS. Now, when it tanks, the temption is to sell, right....but is this the right thing to do....NO, you'll lose your A$$. So what do you do, you hold on to it and wait for it to go back up....THEN SELL. How does this tie into the regionals and ASA. Well the guys that got hired in 1999, they bought low, the got in early, before the boom and now there sittin' pretty...and the guys who got hired in 2002, they bought high....and the stock, "IT DROPPED" (so to speak) and they are left waitin'....BUT, if you bail out now, you lose what you've invested over the last three years and have to start over again...don't get me wrong, myself and many others who are junior to you would love for you to leave, but it may not be the smartest decision.....

OK, now, bringing it back to the question...Growth or contract. You see, I believe that we are coming up on a second boom....Not as big as the last one by any means, but a boom that could create lots of movement for the next several years...but there's a problem...CHQ, Mesa, Eagle, Transtates...and all those other pilot groups out there that would practically pay there employer to fly there airplanes...and these are the types of people ASA is forced to underbid in order to get growth. Now, management is basically, in an indirect way, saying that if we get the contract we want, we won't get the planes. Truth or Fiction? Who the heck knows? It certainly makes sense, but its all a big frikin game...we play it and they play it...we stretch things and they stretch things..and somewhere in the middle lies the truth...which is what I am always interested in...I could care less about anything else.

Anyway, I have many more thoughts on this topic but I will save them for discussion...WHAT DO YA'LL THINK?

 

[jjetpilot]

Trans States is sweet...

Just messin with ya......although I am employed by them....

For what it is worth....I say go for the contract...it has a MUCH longer affect on your lives now and a starting point for future contracts.

Eventually the market will come back around and hopefully there will be a major to be hired by......

I have friends there with you and I sincerely hope things go well....

 

[bvt1151]

Here's the problem:

When you take growth over QOL, suddenly that 70% becomes 75% and they all are newbies like you who will want growth. The next contract comes up, mgmt knows they've got you by the nads and those 75% take growth over QOL and you're left high and dry. The more you go for growth, the deeper in you'll get. The cycle continues. Next thing you know you're flying ERJ's for every known airline at subpar rates just so you can achieve growth. If you want to do that, send your resume to Indianapolis.

 

[180ToTheMarker]

This underbiddding for growth seems to be the common theme these days. The problem with that is eventually you won't be able to underbid because you will be offering your services for free. In my opinion its about pride. Imagine if the ASA pilots told mgmt "we don't want that carrot you're dangling, we want a contract that improves our pay, our work rules, and our quality of life, take your carrot elsewhere." I'm convinced Comair would do the same in their negotiations next year. Maybe if our pilot group had the balls to stop this conssionary growth we would start a trend. Take pride in your profession, don't sell your soul for growth.

Just my 2 cents,

 

[jetstream]

A bird in hand is worth two in the bush.

A contract is a definitive agreement and once it is signed it is ours. The promises of growth are a carrot on a stick and just like it is for a jackass pulling a cart its always there in front of us but may never be reached.

For you new guys, after the honeymoon with the left seat wears off (and it will) it will come back around to how good is your contract.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Holy Guilt trips Batman!

I would be skeptical to believe that the pilots are the key to growth. I don't think the Prez/CEO is going to go the BOD in a couple of months and say we can't grow cause the pilots wanted a contract. Pilots don't have that kind of control and CEOs don't give up that kind of control

Either way ASA ALPA needs to get any agremeent in writing, whether it is a growth LOA or a new CBA.

Listen to your Reps, go to the LEC meetings and roadshows and stay unified!!

 

[BoilerUP]

When you take growth over QOL

I know alot of people working for that airline in Indianapolis, and I have *yet* to hear a single person complain about their quality of life.

That comment aside, I'd say take the contract. I'd like to see compensation around $30/hr for 1st year FOs and $45/hr for 5th year FOs in 50 seat aircraft. At 60% CA's rate, that would be $75/hr for 5th year CAs.

Perhaps not as much as some might like, but a bit above Comair and definately a step in the right direction.

My $.02...best of luck to your whole group while in negotiations.

 

[73belair]

Being one of those hired in 2002 and hired into the last Brasilia class and sitting reserve for most of the time I've been here... I still will take a contract over growth. Even it it means long upgrades I am really tired of the downward spiral for regionals. ASA makes a bunch of money paying us what they pay us. So does Comair. Its in the millions! So the company paying the pilots less is just MORE profit for the company. Its like outsourcing phone support to India. For years these companies paid people to do the job, and made a bunch of money doing it. Then they found someone who would do it cheaper for them. Did they pass that on to the consumer by lowering the price of their product? No... They added that saving on to their profit.
The industry is a wasteful industry. The spend and spend on things that do nothing for them, and then blame the pilots for "getting paid to much".
Delta recently said how proud they were to be able to turn an MD-88 in 45 min and how this would free up an airplane a day. How long does it take Southwest to turn an airplane with about the same seats? 30min... Maybe less?

 

[701EV]

One thing and one thing only,a contract! The rest will come with a contract.

Besides, it sucks a lot less now than it use too.


701EV

 

[Gorditas]

As stated by a few others, I feel that using “growth” as any kind of measurement on our next contract would be a poor choice. Haven’t we learned anything from history people? The whole reason that we are in the current labor situation is because people at many other airlines have said, “growth now, contract later.” Or a better one is “get PIC time now, and get to a major faster.” The problem is, you can’t guarantee anything except where you are today, and what is on the property today. Even that is not guaranteed! How many guys are on the property at (insert any regional here) who have been there 2, 3 or 4 times longer than they thought they would? How many will now retire from those airlines due to the age/longevity/seniority problem? The point is, you don’t know how long you will be at your current airline, or in your current seat! At ASA, except for the first year, FO pay is 60% of captain pay. Our last negotiators (I wasn’t here yet) did this so that our FO’s could have a livable wage. They gave up a little bit of pay on the captain’s side, but they had the foresight to know that this would improve QOL for more of the pilot group. Thanks guys, that made the first three years more bearable. Now compare that with the said airline out of IND where, “we want to keep FO pay low to get our CA pay up, and keep the JFJ guy’s pay low.” And my favorite is the $3 an hour difference from a 50 seat aircraft to a 70 seat aircraft. Please, don’t take my word for it, check it out for yourself at http://www.airlinepilotpay.com/chautauqua/chautauqua.htm.



Please do not get me wrong, this not meant as a CHQ bashing. I have many friends there and had a class date to go there myself. However, part of the reason that I chose to come to ASA was that I knew that if anything happened that would cause me to stay long term, I felt that ASA would be a better choice. And if now we go down the “road to growth” I think that instead of being at the top of the pay scale, we will end up on the other end of the spectrum. Besides, just because they say “if you do XYZ you will get this that and the other,” you never know what will really happen. Just like last year when Portfolio Phred put out the RFP, I think that they knew already who was getting the airplanes, “but hey, let’s see if we can get them to salivate over POTENTIAL airplanes and low ball each other!” No thanks!

 

[Truckdriver]

When XJT or SKYW buys ASA you won't have anything to worry about because you will all be screwed. I project that DAL will sell ASA within the year to get cash and if SKYW is the buyer you will REALLY be screwed. If XJT happens to be the buyer the ALPA merger policy will apply and you won't be screwd as bad, but you'll still get the short end of the stick.

 

[FL990]

Cool, lots of replies so far, and they all say the same thing. Now, I am not asking the question with the notion that there is a right or wrong answer...but i do think that each path has a stream of consequences that we will have to live with...

Ok, so the common theme that I am getting is take the contract...definitely very valid. As one person put it, we have to stop taking the carrot at some point. Very good observation. So, the next question is then this...is the regional no longer a stepping stone? Is it now a place where people are coming in there 20's and 30's and saying, "this is it for me."? You see, I agree with all of the above statements...the growth spirts will end eventually and turn into a constant growth stream over an indefinite period of time...the masive growth of the late 90's and early millenium was due to a very large shift in trends in the industry...(aka, the massive introduction to the regional jet). We all salivated, we all got "star-y" eyed....and we all shot our D1(k$ off. And now we are stuck living with the consequences.

But my point in originally asking the question is this....THERE ARE TWO CHOICES HERE, in my opinion...no more, but also no less. And these two views are both valid and healthy. But sometimes we hear other opinions...opinions driven by emotion and ignorance...by the whiners. These include the desire to put ASA out of business because scheduling extended them for a 2hr trip...this kind of crap is rediculous...what does it solve to cripple the company we work for. You see, I take this attitude personally, because I have a lot invested in my career just like everone else at the this company. I am a rational thinking person, and ration tells me that puting ASA out of business accomplishes nothing but puting me out of a job again. Whether you like it or not, management is NOT the ENEMY. For every one enemy, there is another...so if they are an enemy, so are we...and we are not the enemy either. Lets face it, they aren't doing anything that we aren't doing. We want a contract that pays us the most we can get, for working the least that we can. And if it were up to them, we would pay them to fly there airplanes. It is not a personal thing, its business, and this violating the contract intentionally...It has to stop. But constant complaining solves nothing. We need to get creative and figure out a way to make it stop....LEGALLY, not by going out and cutting the tires in MTY and then writing it up.

More thoughts later...

 

[49W]

I would say contract. The industry has changed forever. Now, many more people will be at the regionals for their entire career than before. Contracts written before at the regionals were at a time when people used the regionals as a stepping stone to the majors which brought much better pay and in most cases a better quality of life. In previous years, newly hired FOs at the regionals could reasonably expect to upgrade 2 years or less after being hired. Living off of an FO's wage isn't as painful then. Now, we're in it for the long haul, and many FO's coming here now will very likely see upgrade times closer to eight years or possibly more. We have alot of relatively young captains here, so there won't be a steady stream of retirements in the near future. I don't know if what I'm saying will be the case, and I hope it's not. I'm just a pessimist. I guess being that way keeps me from being disappointed.

 

[CF34-3B1]

Now that DALPA has agreed to the TA, maybe Greenjeans will finally instruct ASA's negotiators to negotiate.

I was here under George and John, and I was here to march with the CMR guys during the 89 days.

Personally, I'd rather sell cars for a living than see this pilot group prostitute itself for growth. (Not that I think we ever would.)

HeII, most car salesmen make more than our FOs anyway.

 

[Lolikoka]

Make It a Career

Contract, Quality of Life, a Career. I left the constant misery of a law practice to live the lifelong dream, thinking at the time that ASA would be a short stop on the way to big money made easy. Things have changed, and I turn 40 next month. ASA will most likely be my career (with a law practice on the side). Our next contract needs to be a career contract, or my vote it to carry picket signs.

 

[FL990]

Now that DALPA has agreed to the TA, maybe Greenjeans will finally instruct ASA's negotiators to negotiate.

Good point, Lets hope so!

 

[Rhoid]

but there's a problem...CHQ, Mesa, Eagle, Transtates...and all those other pilot groups out there that would practically pay there employer to fly there airplanesQUOTE]


Gee, if i'm not mistaken wasn't ASA one of the original PFT airlines? Kinda hipocritical don't you think?

 

[jetstream]

Yeah, we've got some of those pay for training guys and they're all senior to me.

But I've got my pride (and less debt)!

 

[FL990]

Gee, if i'm not mistaken wasn't ASA one of the original PFT airlines? Kinda hipocritical don't you think?

I'm guessing you work for CHQ...could be wrong. Anyway, the reality is if we had brand scope, we wouldn't even have this discussion because CHQ wouldn't be part of the equation. My stance on all of this is different from many of the pissed of pilots at this company. Where as some of my angry co-workers would love to see the demise of ASA just out of spite, I choose a different approach. I say we use our barganing power (if we actually have any due to the fact that I highly doubt Bush is going to allow a strike) and fight for brand scope which gives us even more leverage. Fight for that, fight for the combination of ASA and Comair and maybe even Delta too. This gives us an enormous amount of leverage for future contracts. Then we can go after the big contract and they will have little choice but to give in. In other words, what I am saying is instead of trying to put ASA out of business, as an ASA pilot, go after getting CHQ and any other outside company out of our system and focus on keeping them out...not by undercutting them, but by merging the Delta system and then squeezing others out with brand scope in order to give us the leverage we need to get the contract we deserve. This is not a personal attack, its just good business on our part. Sorry

 

[49W]

Good ideas, but Delta management will most likely never allow for a merger anywhere. Their thought process is to keep costs as low as possible. They know that by merging ASA and Comair or by giving brand scope, their options become limited and we become more powerful. Naturally, we would be in a better position to negotiate higher wages and better working conditions (there's an idea). Now they can choose the lowest bidder and subcontract out the work. It's been going on for years in other areas of aviation. The one thing that they don't look at is quality of service. When you operate this way, morale goes down, therefore motivation to go above and beyond decreases.