ASA Electronic Strike Ballot is Here!!!

[JoeMerchant]

All of your politics, yes ALPA has it's problems ,however, it is time to stop the race to the bottom, the ASA pilot group should be proud of itself and stick together, vote in favor of a strike. John, Joe, or whoever you are , it is time for you to stop contributing to divide and conquer.

Jehtplane, I agree with you that it is time to stop the race to the bottom. However the ASA pilot group cannot stop it by themselves. Our national union has to step up to the plate and it has to be done ACROSS COMPANY LINES. RJDC calls it "inclusivescope" and ALPA calls it "brand scope". It is ALPA that has contributed to "divide and conquer" and I am only calling it like I see it. If we weren't divided, we wouldn't be conquered, but the fact is WE ARE DIVIDED and we are competing with each other. Falling on our sword won't stop the "race to the bottom", it will only allow another union pilot group or non-union pilot group to replace us. It doesn't do any good to "stick together" while our "brothers and sisters" come around our "line in the sand" to replace us.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Hey Joe/John - whoever.

Is it true that you are going to make a run as the ATL Captains Rep next Tuesday?

Were you planning on keeping this quiet so no one else would get their forces there to oppose you?

Are you planning on running or not?

I am not running, however apparantly there are some people who want me to run. I've actually been trying to get Fins to run :beer: .The problem is I am not, and will never be a "politician". I am "damaged goods" because I say what is on my mind and that isn't the "political" thing to do. Especially not within ALPA. This problem is way beyond the ASA MEC, me and our current contract, and electing me as Capt. Rep. will not change it. It is going to take a complete overhaul of ALPA and the cooperation of every carrier within each brand to reverse the damage that has been done. I am willing to help out when our pilot group decides it is time for a change. If they want the status quo, then I will sit on the sidelines and provide commentary.

 

[Turkey Shoot]

Jehtplane, I agree with you that it is time to stop the race to the bottom. However the ASA pilot group cannot stop it by themselves. Our national union has to step up to the plate and it has to be done ACROSS COMPANY LINES. RJDC calls it "inclusivescope" and ALPA calls it "brand scope". It is ALPA that has contributed to "divide and conquer" and I am only calling it like I see it. If we weren't divided, we wouldn't be conquered, but the fact is WE ARE DIVIDED and we are competing with each other. Falling on our sword won't stop the "race to the bottom", it will only allow another union pilot group or non-union pilot group to replace us. It doesn't do any good to "stick together" while our "brothers and sisters" come around our "line in the sand" to replace us.

Forget it Joe. The union kool aid is to powerful. Same thing happened at TSA. Look what is happening there now. The memories and the new furloughs are constant reminders.

You guys need to take a lesson. Better find a way to protect the flying you have before, "you stick it to the man." Burn down the house and it won't matter one iota. There will be a few thousand other regional pilots clapping their hands with glee at the thought of quick upgrades.

Stopping the race to the bottom? Yeah, whatever. You're buying yourself a place in the unemployment line. It doesn't matters to JA. If he can make a few more bucks by sending ASA down the tubes and having his boys step in, he will.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Forget it Joe. The union kool aid is to powerful. Same thing happened at TSA. Look what is happening there now.

You guys need to figure it out. Better find a way to protect the flying you have before, "you stick it to the man." Burn down the house and it won't matter one iota. There will be a few thousand other regional pilots clapping their hands with glee at the thought of quick upgrades.

Stopping the race to the bottom? Yeah, whatever. You're buying yourself a place in the unemployment line. It doesn't matters to JA. If he can make a few more bucks by sending ASA down the tubes and having his boys step in, he will.

Get a clue and attend some economics classes.

Your preaching to the choir Turkey Shoot. I used your example at TSA/G0Jets today with our conference call and CNC. They had no comment. I have studied your situation and others and it frustrates me that we keep making the same mistakes. What is worse, is when people like you and I point this stuff out we are called "turncoats", "management lackeys", etc. The truth hurts and people don't want to hear it. Ignorance is bliss - good luck on the Hulas camp.

 

[gcaflyer]

I was a YES within 2 minutes of getting the e-mail.

 

[shamrock]

If my only choices are to participate in the continual slide of this "career" by capitulating to the Company or to go down fighting, I'll choose to go down fighting, even if it doesn't make a difference.

So someone else will replace me. So what. They can have the job if the slide continues because this career is getting to the point that it just isn't worth it anymore. My identity isn't so wrapped up in flying a not so shiny jet around that I will accept a concessionary contract from a profitable Company. If making that choice spells the end of ASA then so be it.

Falling on our sword won't stop the "race to the bottom", it will only allow another union pilot group or non-union pilot group to replace us. It doesn't do any good to "stick together" while our "brothers and sisters" come around our "line in the sand" to replace us.

So instead, let's roll over and give in to anything the Company wants, right? Think I'll pass on that.

SKYW, CHQ, Mesa and even mainline pilots will replace us as the "race to the bottom" continues with or without us.

I don't know about the "us" part, but substitute "me" in there and I'll take the latter option.

Many of you will continue to blame BL or CT not realizing that they are puppets just as you and I are - the difference is they will be able to start over again at the same pay while you and I have to start over again at the bottom.

This puppet isn't rolling over so the puppet management of our profitable airline can make some more bonus money. And if ASA goes away this puppet also won't be seen at the bottom of any regional list.

 

[Bizjet]

We both voted no. We have been calling this train wreck for almost 4 years now but nobody wanted to hear it. ALPA isn't nearly as powerful as some of you believe and has in fact made the problem worse.

It is good to know that you two management lackeys voted NO. Will you SCAB your fellow ASA Pilots?

So you and your older girl friend have been trying to educate ASA's uneducated pilots for 4 years have you! You pride yourself in problem identification. Your solution is to surrender in all cases. You are setting yourself up to SCAB but you will never remove the mark of the "S"!!!!! You can then start over at the bottom at some other carrier and try to educate those pilots. However, I doubt that you will ever be employeed in this industry again. Your self proclaimed brilliance is meant for a higher calling.

And for her it won't matter as retirement is just around the corner and you can continue the crusade for another 20 years.

 

[AsaLossPaywAlpa]

vote no

 

[ASARJMan]

I voted no.

Surprise of the day! hahaha

VOTED IN FAVOR!

 

[ASARJMan]

The problem is I am not, and will never be a "politician". .

Oh pleaseeeeeee Johnny boy! You are a politician, but don't realize it.

VOTED IN FAVOR!

 

[ASARJMan]

And for her it won't matter as retirement is just around the corner and you can continue the crusade for another 20 years.

Damn, she that old Biz? Thought Johnny was still a youngster.

VOTED IN FAVOR!

 

[ASARJMan]

I am not running, however apparantly there are some people who want me to run. .

Who, your old girlfriend Johhny?

VOTED IN FAVOR!

 

[WWEfan]

:beer: .The problem is I am not, and will never be a "politician". I am "damaged goods" because I say what is on my mind and that isn't the "political" thing to do.

No, Johnny, you are damaged goods because you failed to do the job you were elected for. You can speak your mind all you want, but when you turned your back on those that put you in office YOU committed political suicide.

 

[jstyle13]

YES for me!!!

 

[FIXIT]

Good deal. I hope ASA shuts down. There should be some cheap houses in ATL soon. Thanks ladies!

MELIT looking forward to the open houses. I think i will relocate as soon as they all get canned. How ya been?

 

[JoeMerchant]

If my only choices are to participate in the continual slide of this "career" by capitulating to the Company or to go down fighting, I'll choose to go down fighting, even if it doesn't make a difference.

So someone else will replace me. So what. They can have the job if the slide continues because this career is getting to the point that it just isn't worth it anymore. My identity isn't so wrapped up in flying a not so shiny jet around that I will accept a concessionary contract from a profitable Company. If making that choice spells the end of ASA then so be it.

Is that the best a national union has to offer? We can't stop the competition amongst members, we can just have some fall on their swords. Doesn't sound like we are getting our monies worth. Is their no way for a national union the size of ALPA to prevent members from competing with each other for the same brand? If ALPA can't do better, it needs to be replaced.

 

[JoeMerchant]

No, Johnny, you are damaged goods because you failed to do the job you were elected for. You can speak your mind all you want, but when you turned your back on those that put you in office YOU committed political suicide.

ALPA has failed to do the job we pay them to do. There is no leadership in ALPA - only politicians. The ASA and CMR MECs used to be the execption. Sadly they have become like all other MECs and ALPA national. I will never endorce a failed strategy. RJDC has done more to protect the ASA pilots than ALPA has. It's amazing that people are so willing to follow ALPA off the cliff.

 

[FishandFly]

Bizjet, first there won't be a strike. The NMB won't allow it right now regardless of how the vote comes out. An ASA strike would kill Delta and Washington DC isn't going to allow that to happen. If you don't understand that, then you really don't understand the RLA and Washington DC.

Joe. If you believe that then why did you vote no? A divided vote takes the effectiveness of our efforts down to zero.

Sounds like you not only made an ignorant decision in voting no, your decision was wrong with your own understanding and prediction of the process.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe. If you believe that then why did you vote no? A divided vote takes the effectiveness of our efforts down to zero.

Sounds like you not only made an ignorant decision in voting no, your decision was wrong with your own understanding and prediction of the process.

It doesn't matter what the vote is, I don't believe we would be released because of Delta's financial condition. A strong yes vote will continue the status quo. We will remain parked, we won't change our demands, and Jerry will continue to shift assets to SKYW. That won't help ASA pilots.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Joe - how do you think a vote not to authorize our MEC to call a strike would help us?

This is a very sincere question.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe - how do you think a vote not to authorize our MEC to call a strike would help us?

This is a very sincere question.

Good question. Let's see if I can answer it.

I have listened to the CNC and the scope they are asking for. Based on what the CNC said, even if we achieved what we are asking for, I don't see anything that prevents Jerry from shifting assets to SKYW. I don't think that will help us. The scope we are asking for allows SKYW to shift 15% of our flying. After that, they can still shift assets as long as SKYW takes the pilots. That doesn't cut it as far as I'm concerned.

Even that scope is only achievable if we are released. I don't think we will be released based on what we are asking for and based on what a strike would do to Delta Air Lines and interstate air commerce. I just don't see it. Given that, I see Jerry shifting more assets to SKYW while we are in recess with the NMB which continually erodes our leverage.

If I thought it would help us, I would most certainly vote yes. I voted yes in 1997 and I could vote yes again if I believed it would be beneficial. The Great Lakes pilots voted to strike over 3 years ago and they are still in recess. How many assets can Jerry transfer in 3 years?

 

[socony_air]

If I thought it would help us, I would most certainly vote yes. I voted yes in 1997 and I could vote yes again if I believed it would be beneficial. The Great Lakes pilots voted to strike over 3 years ago and they are still in recess. How many assets can Jerry transfer in 3 years?

[/quote]


As usual from Joe Merchant - 1 part truth - 10 parts imagination.

I believe if you thought it would help YOU - you would vote yes. You are up to something here and I think we all smell it. Your interests are obviously not alligned with the majority of ASA pilot's interest. Your interests lie in your personal crusade against ALPA national & your obsession with giving ALPA the finger at every opportunity. You focus IS NOT on what is best for the line pilots at ASA or you would find a way to get on board with this vote. Again, how much money do you stand to make as part of your lawsuit against ALPA???

 

[FishandFly]

It doesn't matter what the vote is, I don't believe we would be released because of Delta's financial condition. A strong yes vote will continue the status quo. We will remain parked, we won't change our demands, and Jerry will continue to shift assets to SKYW. That won't help ASA pilots.

Joe, your logic is wrong.

Both SKYW and ASA management know that the contract we work out is going to cost them more than they have already offered. Why did they not offer more? Maybe because they are smart? We're all so ticked off that they have strung this out for so long that many people are simply wanting to strike for spite.

It is not in the interest of management to have it's workforce strike. But it is in the interest of management to GAUGE the potential action of the workforce.

When management does come out with their offer, it will be less than it could have been because of your failure to vote correctly.

 

[blueridge71]

In favor.

 

[crjskipper]

fish - john rice said himself to a large group of pilots less than 2 years ago that alpa was just as happy as the company that negotiations were proceding slowly, hoping to see an improvement in the economy. not until last fall, 3 years into negotiations did alpa start the 3 years is too long plea, only after most of us started asking 'whats the deal?'

i blame alpa just as much as the company for dragging things out - alpa palyed the 'the economy will improve' card and lost. then they tried the hardball approach just as delta went bankrupt. call a spade a spade - asking the pilots for a cut is unfair in my opinion, but asking for a huge raise and a b fund is much, much more unfair. alpa is just as guilty in my opinion for getting us to this point. at least the company wants a contract now, i cant tell if alpa really wants this.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Joe -

So if I understand your thinking. A poor showing would result in our MEC being more "reasonable?" If ALPA's logic is so flawed, then how are we assured a 85% yes vote would have a different result as a 99.99% vote? Politically, I don't see things changing regardless of the vote's outcome.

I heard Duane Woerth repeatedly praise the idea of "full pay to the last day." He gave Independence Air and Mesaba as evidence of the "success" of their principled stand. It sent chills up my spine when this rhetoric resonated with the truth of loss of pilot jobs and flying. Duane signed the NWA TA and the "Compass" deal just a couple of days later.

We are in the "perfect storm." We are no longer owned by Delta. Jerry Atkin will use the most cost effective resources to provide Skywest's lift. Skywest is non union and happy about it. ALPA is pleased with its "success" at airlines which are going away figuring that all of us are better off flying for other airlines anyway.

If ALPA does not change it is likely that a 30% smaller ASA will be trying to decertify the union. The union will label the majority as "losers" and continue its retrenchment until the whole "experiment" of representing regional pilots is considered a failed mission.

If I can see this coming from the bleachers, you must know that our LEC and MEC folks can see this from the scrimmage line. In the absence of an alternative, the best plan is to trust my team with the ball.

~~~^~~~

 

[~~~^~~~]

Joe, your logic is wrong.

Both SKYW and ASA management know that the contract we work out is going to cost them more than they have already offered. Why did they not offer more?

Can we agree that Jerry Atkin does not like ALPA? Can we agree that JA would like to see ALPA gone from ASA and the threat removed from Skywest? Is it safe to assume he fully intends to play hard ball knowing ALPA will stand by and not make a stand on scope?

• If ASA disappears and ALPA representation along with it - Jerry wins.
• If ASA pilots frightened by furloughs and career disaster decertify ALPA - Jerry wins
• If ASA's MEC folds and Skywest pilots see that ALPA did nothing for the ASA pilots - Jerry wins

The only way the ASA MEC wins is if Jerry Atkin folds and I see no reason for him to do so. A fat contract, or even a reasonable contract with higher rates on the 70 seaters would have the likely result of a ALPA representational vote on the Skywest property.

~----/\~~~~---^~ Fins on the run from a larger shark

(I also think a more reasonable position with rock solid scope language would scare the Skywest pilots into voting ALPA out of fear that ALPA was dealing them out of the growth picture and they would want in the game - that would be my strategy anyway)

 

[~~~^~~~]

.... at least the company wants a contract now, i cant tell if alpa really wants this.

Are you sure? I'm not. The Company has not left our MEC a face saving way out of this mess and backing politicians in a corner usually results in disaster. If the Company wanted a deal they needed to negotiate behind closed doors. Instead they have upset and polarized the entire pilot group.

If the goal of involving the pilots was to get a contract, the Company failed miserably. All Management did is add another 10 to 15% to the strike vote.

 

[crjskipper]

dont disagree fins but i dont think its that much of a battle to ja. i think he just sees an opportunity to keep costs closer to where he likes them. profit sharing and stock mean nothing to me - airline stock is worthless, ask anyone who ever purchased it. it may be great today but it wont stay there most likely, i just think ja is taking advantage of the environment. i do think the company engaging the pilot group was a good tactic, from everyone i spoke with who went to the tutt road shows they were a lot less angry then we were lead to believe. our current mec is not doing the job imho. they waited and waited until the pilots got pissed then went on the offensive - too strong. we dont need pitbulls right now, we need some teeth but more brains, and thats missing.

i would be happy with a freeze on the 700 and some decent 200 increases. the company must get its house in order first, we must become more productive through better scedules and use of reserves and the like. but our mec should draw a line, bring the requests to realistic levels - no more of this big raise and a b fund crap. and i do agree with joe - alpa (nationally) is a complete sellout - but thats not todays issue. get this contract resloved before we lose more planes...

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe -

So if I understand your thinking. A poor showing would result in our MEC being more "reasonable?" If ALPA's logic is so flawed, then how are we assured a 85% yes vote would have a different result as a 99.99% vote? Politically, I don't see things changing regardless of the vote's outcome.

I heard Duane Woerth repeatedly praise the idea of "full pay to the last day." He gave Independence Air and Mesaba as evidence of the "success" of their principled stand. It sent chills up my spine when this rhetoric resonated with the truth of loss of pilot jobs and flying. Duane signed the NWA TA and the "Compass" deal just a couple of days later.

We are in the "perfect storm." We are no longer owned by Delta. Jerry Atkin will use the most cost effective resources to provide Skywest's lift. Skywest is non union and happy about it. ALPA is pleased with its "success" at airlines which are going away figuring that all of us are better off flying for other airlines anyway.

If ALPA does not change it is likely that a 30% smaller ASA will be trying to decertify the union. The union will label the majority as "losers" and continue its retrenchment until the whole "experiment" of representing regional pilots is considered a failed mission.

If I can see this coming from the bleachers, you must know that our LEC and MEC folks can see this from the scrimmage line. In the absence of an alternative, the best plan is to trust my team with the ball.

~~~^~~~

Well said fins. I used to have faith that our team could see this. They did in 2000. They may still see it, however I'm afraid nobody wants to stand up to ALPA national. National is probably threatening us with funding cuts and receivership. My number one issue is a single list. The CNC said that isn't an option now, but that if it gets direction, it could pursue that. Until that happens my vote is NO. If we want to reconsider our positions, I am willing to reconcider my vote.