ASA: "Cost Neutral" Contract?

[atrdriver]

Mike,
From what I have understood, there has been NO mention of anything related to pay. We are not even to that section. What has been addressed so far if I am not mistaken, is QOL issues, mainly scheduling. Almost everything outlined has had ZERO dollars attached to it. And what is being brought to the table from management is actually much less than what we have now!!!

And actually, in many cases, the issues that we consider to be QOL issues result in more efficient use of the crews and aircraft, resulting in less cost to the company. Building an efficient schedule helps everyone, not just the pilots.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

"Actually, the NMB makeup at the time consisted of appointees from the Clinton administration."

So, I'm assuming that both you will also concede that the declining economy was also a result of WJC's policies?

No, you shouldn't assume that...remember what "assuming" does...

They are mutually exclusive issues Caveman. I am not interested in discussing the economy. We are discussing how/why Comair got a release and the challenges that lay ahead of ASA as they fight for a release themselves.

-Neal

 

[Caveman]

It's not the issue that I'm questioning, rather it's the inference that because WJC appointed the NMB GWB had no say in the matter. Liberal's like to demonize GWB and blame him for, amoung other things, the economic downturn but if anything good happens on his watch it was the result of what WJC put in place. You can't have it both ways.

 

[FlyComAirJets]

"Actually, the NMB makeup at the time consisted of appointees from the Clinton administration. They were a holdover as Bush had yet to have an opportunity to appoint new Board members. As a result, there was still a "labor friendly" NMB in place at the time of the Comair strike."

Blue Devil, I wanted to answer the whole post but this alone deserves some comment.

What seems to be in question is not who appointed the NMB folks, but rather the President would intervene further down the process trail and either park the process (which would only delay a strike) or impose a settlement (hardly likely, hasn't been done since the Truman era, I believe).

Since the noble pilots of ASA are just hammering out the QOL issues it is difficult to imagine that the NMB would force them to cool their heels for some indefinite period of time. Assuming their requests are reasonable there is no way the NMB would have the grounds to do that. Read ATR Driver's post.

Magdolyn Jacobsan(sp?) was "labor friendly?" Excuse me while I throw up.

Sorry, but the <fill in the blank> will never let us strike argument reeks of self-inlicted defeatism. George Sr. wouldn't lift a finger for Eastern, his son wont either. It would probably be an elegant way for the Bush Administration to 'thin the herd' without being seen as an airline killer.

Old Maggie, 'labor friendly' hee hee hee. Please tell me you were not within a country mile's distance of the COEx negotiating team.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

What seems to be in question is not who appointed the NMB folks, but rather the President would intervene further down the process trail and either park the process (which would only delay a strike) or impose a settlement (hardly likely, hasn't been done since the Truman era, I believe).

The fact remains...the NMB at the time had 2/3 of its Board members as Democrats and thus, holdovers from the Clinton administration. The NMB was run, at the time, using the decree set forth by the previous administration. The Bush administration's decree has been quite different, as were his appointees to the current NMB. Bush didn't impose a PEB on Comair but Bush was also very new to office and probably had bigger fish to fry at the time.

Since the noble pilots of ASA are just hammering out the QOL issues it is difficult to imagine that the NMB would force them to cool their heels for some indefinite period of time. Assuming their requests are reasonable there is no way the NMB would have the grounds to do that. Read ATR Driver's post.

I will go out on a limb here and say that you will see some form of formal recess shortly. We received one at XJT for having demands out of line with reality, according to the NMB. Actually, their words were a lot worse than my paraphrasing. I could go on but I won't. The ASA pilots started negotiations 2 months after we did, in September 2002. 2 years and a few months is fairly normal for a final settlement. They are a long ways away from that unfortunately. I wouldn't underestimate the powers that be up at the NMB by the way...they are capable of just about anything and they control the ASA process far more than most truly realize.

Magdolyn Jacobsan(sp?) was "labor friendly?" Excuse me while I throw up.
Sorry, but the <fill in the blank> will never let us strike argument reeks of self-inlicted defeatism. George Sr. wouldn't lift a finger for Eastern, his son wont either. It would probably be an elegant way for the Bush Administration to 'thin the heard' without being seen as an airline killer.

I know all about Ms. Jacobson, including the stories (as told by both sides by the way). Believe me, it has only gotten worse. Much worse. Several years ago, the Board looked at both sides of the issues. Now they have become a "wage control board" in every sense of the term. They care very little for the working man's (or pilot's) plight and very much about the path of least resistance...closing the deal and moving on to the next one...and preventing any sort of worker/management strife, including self-help.

Old Maggie, 'labor friendly' hee hee hee. Please tell me you were not within a country mile's distance of the COEx negotiating team.

I never called Maggie (one of the three board members) "labor friendly" but I did call the NMB itself "labor friendly." Perhaps "labor friendly" was stretching it...how about "labor neutral" instead of "anti-labor" which is what they are now. Heck, they seemed "labor friendly" back then compared to what they are now. I have fairly good experiences to back up these statements.

As to your second sentence, I grew up in NY so I have no clue what a "country mile" is. As to my involvement (or lack thereof), I guess it all depends if you want me to tell the truth or not.

-Neal

 

[BluDevAv8r]

It's not the issue that I'm questioning, rather it's the inference that because WJC appointed the NMB GWB had no say in the matter. Liberal's like to demonize GWB and blame him for, amoung other things, the economic downturn but if anything good happens on his watch it was the result of what WJC put in place. You can't have it both ways.

I am neither a liberal nor am I trying to demonize anyone. However, the NMB that President Bush has created has made bargaining for airline pilots (especially those of us flying small jets) incredibly difficult the past few years. The economy under WJC or GWB is not a matter in this discussion from what I can tell. We are talking about the NMB here and nothing more or less.

-Neal

 

[FlyComAirJets]

Thanks Blu, that explains it all. Classic. Why, I don't know why we even have a Railway Labor Act which has existed in one form or the other for seventy years.

-Your 'labor friendly' Union Brother
FCJ

 

[Long Time Gone]

LOOK! Delta just added Republic to its "Portfolio"

Wait till there are like 10 portfolio companies, and each "Connection" carrier hauls 10 percent........then it's time for concessions as we each beg for our lives and jobs. E-170's coming soon to C-concourse! Republic pilots in ASA's lounges. 70-seaters at Brasilia pay-rates.

Like heell. I think they better to find themselves some other place to go. The general consensus is that they aren't welcome in any crew lounge in ATL.

I'll back that in a heartbeat.

LTG

 

[JetPilot_Mike]

You don't see and CHQ guys in Comair Ops in CVG.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Thanks Blu, that explains it all. Classic. Why, I don't know why we even have a Railway Labor Act which has existed in one form or the other for seventy years.

-Your 'labor friendly' Union Brother
FCJ

Well...I'm glad you can debate the issues without using sarcasm.

-Neal

 

[michael707767]

Like heell. I think they better to find themselves some other place to go. The general consensus is that they aren't welcome in any crew lounge in ATL.

I'll back that in a heartbeat.

LTG

Just curious, what exactly have the CHQ pilots done to you? They did not make the decision to fly the E-170 for DCI.

 

[captain caveman]

No, but accepting $66 for a 5 year Captain and $34 max F/O pay in a recent contract for the EMB170? This is a big airplane and when you look at operating costs, they are basically working for free. Nauseating.

 

[ProLine4]

Like heell. I think they better to find themselves some other place to go. The general consensus is that they aren't welcome in any crew lounge in ATL.

I'll back that in a heartbeat.

LTG

Yes, agreed. The good thing is that the E170 (85 ft wingspan) can't fit in the CRJ-700 sized-gateboxes (75 ft wingspan) that C is being designed around. Also, it needs a jetway or airstairs since the door sill height is a good 3+ feet above the CRJs. He!! would freeze over before a DCI plane would be parked on A or B, so I guess if they did show up, they'd be stuck out on the end of D or E. Good luck dealing with the PropMafia though on D...

 

[doh]

No matter the politician, no matter the party, they don't want you to be released! The NMB is tasked with mediating a negotiated settlement, not getting you released!!!! They don't care about fair, right, or good. Their charter calls for them to get a contract out. Hey, this just in... all politicians are addicted to money and therefore sit on management's side, not ours!

 

[letthebigdogeat]

Either way, this is beyond pathetic and time for something to happen. The more this delays, the worse everything is going to get. Cost Neutral this, give us an in house hotel committee <puff> there goes a half mil we pay to corp lodging, get rid of the departure coordinators, good idea way back when with the fuel truck problems, but IMO useless today. There's AT LEAST another half mil. On time departures speak for themselves. Any other ideas?

 

[surplus1]

Be cautious what you advocate. Illegal job actions will do you far more harm than good. Apart from huge fines for the union, a proven illegal job action could cause your negotiations to be delay indefinetly by the NMB. In case you're wondering, indefinitely is a lot longer than six months.

You have only been negotiating for two years. Both of Comair's last two contracts took three years. Others have taken longer. You must understand that patience is necessary in collective bargaining. Delays by the Company are intended to make you do something stupid. If you make that mistake "delay" will take on a short term meaning and forever will become the new word. Whatever you do, be sensible.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

What exactly is a "departure coordinator" and do you also have someone on an ops frequency that you call who handles fuel requests, catering, lav service, etc? Or is it one and the same?

-Neal

 

[surplus1]

The fact remains...the NMB at the time had 2/3 of its Board members as Democrats and thus, holdovers from the Clinton administration. The NMB was run, at the time, using the decree set forth by the previous administration. The Bush administration's decree has been quite different, as were his appointees to the current NMB. Bush didn't impose a PEB on Comair but Bush was also very new to office and probably had bigger fish to fry at the time.

That much I'll give you.

I will go out on a limb here and say that you will see some form of formal recess shortly. We received one at XJT for having demands out of line with reality, according to the NMB. Actually, their words were a lot worse than my paraphrasing. I could go on but I won't. The ASA pilots started negotiations 2 months after we did, in September 2002. 2 years and a few months is fairly normal for a final settlement. They are a long ways away from that unfortunately. I wouldn't underestimate the powers that be up at the NMB by the way...they are capable of just about anything and they control the ASA process far more than most truly realize.

Well, I could agree with 2/3 of that but there something missing. It is true that the NMB can recess you if they decide your demands are "unrealistic". However, your leaving out another component of the equation that is equally important. If your union (ALPA National) believes that your demands are unrealistic, they too can quietly arrange for a delay. Chances are that you will never know that they've done that for they are not going to tell you.

It is also true that you will not get a "release" or a "proffer" if the National union does not want you to have one. Again, they will not tell you that, it will just happen quietly behind the scenes 9 out of 10 cases.

So, not only is the NMB in charge of the process, so is the National union. How much you know about what the national union is actually doing behind the scenes depends on how much they choose to tell you. The truth is that what they tell you up front is not always the same as what they are doing behind closed doors. That varies depending on how big an powerful you are within the union itself.

I know all about Ms. Jacobson, including the stories (as told by both sides by the way). Believe me, it has only gotten worse. Much worse. Several years ago, the Board looked at both sides of the issues. Now they have become a "wage control board" in every sense of the term. They care very little for the working man's (or pilot's) plight and very much about the path of least resistance...closing the deal and moving on to the next one...and preventing any sort of worker/management strife, including self-help.

The Board has never cared about "the working man's plight". Neither has it ever cared about the content of a contract. The Board's responsibility is to avoid labor conflict and get an agreement. If they can "break you down" to do that, they will. That isn't new. Once more, the same thing applies to the national union. Unless you're a Delta, United, NWA or CAL or some other large carrier like Fdx, they seldom care very muich about what's in your contract. They want an agreement and not a strike. Strikes cost really big bucks and the cost/benefit to the union just isn't there if you happen to be a small carrier. In other words, the "wage control board" as you put it, is just as much in effect internally within the National union. as it is in the NMB. The union will use its "influence" with the Board, which is considerable, to control what you do. It just won't tell you ever that it is doing that. In fact if you ask, it will be denied, but that does not mean it isn't happening; don't kid yourself.

I would agree with you that the current Board is far more "anti-labor" than the previous one used to be. For those that wanted the Republicans to be in charge, about all I can say is, you got what you wanted. Now live with it.

No doubt many who read this will disagree with it, especially the parts about the role of the national union. That's OK with me. All I can say to that is Caveat Emptor.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

What exactly is a "departure coordinator" and do you also have someone on an ops frequency that you call who handles fuel requests, catering, lav service, etc? Or is it one and the same?

-Neal

A Departure Coordinator is a position that was instituted maybe a year ago to help get flights out on time. Instead of the pilots calling operations for fuel, catering, cleaning, the ok to board, etc... this person was supposed to come out to the airplane with the release and verbally check with the flight crews to see what they needed. Then the Dep. Coord. was responsible for making sure they planes were catered, cleaned, fueled and ultimately leave on time.

Some of them are really good at what they do, but many times you end up calling Ops. looking for your Dep Coord.

I kind of liken it to something from "The Department of Redundancy Department" some days.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

A Departure Coordinator is a position that was instituted maybe a year ago to help get flights out on time. Instead of the pilots calling operations for fuel, catering, cleaning, the ok to board, etc... this person was supposed to come out to the airplane with the release and verbally check with the flight crews to see what they needed. Then the Dep. Coord. was responsible for making sure they planes were catered, cleaned, fueled and ultimately leave on time.

Some of them are really good at what they do, but many times you end up calling Ops. looking for your Dep Coord.

I kind of liken it to something from "The Department of Redundancy Department" some days.

Interesting. I like your last line. I tend to agree with it, from what it sounds like.

-Neal

 

[BluDevAv8r]

However, your leaving out another component of the equation that is equally important. If your union (ALPA National) believes that your demands are unrealistic, they too can quietly arrange for a delay. Chances are that you will never know that they've done that for they are not going to tell you.

It is also true that you will not get a "release" or a "proffer" if the National union does not want you to have one. Again, they will not tell you that, it will just happen quietly behind the scenes 9 out of 10 cases.

So, not only is the NMB in charge of the process, so is the National union. How much you know about what the national union is actually doing behind the scenes depends on how much they choose to tell you. The truth is that what they tell you up front is not always the same as what they are doing behind closed doors. That varies depending on how big an powerful you are within the union itself.

Surplus,

Clearly if you are going to make such claims...you have proof of these allegations? Anecdotes at least?

-Neal

 

[surplus1]

Surplus,

Clearly if you are going to make such claims...you have proof of these allegations? Anecdotes at least?

-Neal

Neal,

I have as much proof that they do it as you have that they don't. I have learned when among them not to drink their beverages. The time will come when you do too.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Neal,

I have as much proof that they do it as you have that they don't. I have learned when among them not to drink their beverages. The time will come when you do too.

Surplus my friend, I don't. I've got the shouting matches and arguments to prove it. I've also had my conspiracy theory discussions with my coworkers (in the Association). But your answer proves my point. As do many of your other posts. Nonetheless, I applaud your passion and conviction for your stance, despite the fact that I disagree with many of your posts and arguments.

-Neal

 

[DrunkIrishman]

How mature.

 

[Dodge]

There is always ways to achieve a cost neutral contract by management. Take us at Mesaba. The pitiful excuse for a raise that we got is countered by our health insurance premiums going up 50%.

Mesaba management was very pleased wtih their cost neutral contract.

 

[Freebrd]

Check out what one of our pilots thought of that anti-union propaganda BS "Negotiations Update" the company put out. Priceless!


I love it! Next time you may consider sending the propaganda back to the GO in company mail!

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

We were given a TA before we walked. We not only voted it down by over 97% but a few hundred of them were found one morning stacked up against the CP office door. It was a great show of unity.

 

[FL000]

Check out what one of our pilots thought of that anti-union propaganda BS "Negotiations Update" the company put out. Priceless!

I hope for hipocrisy's sake that you are not the moderator who deleted my avatar, especially after it was edited.

 

[surplus1]

Surplus my friend, I don't. I've got the shouting matches and arguments to prove it. I've also had my conspiracy theory discussions with my coworkers (in the Association). But your answer proves my point. As do many of your other posts. Nonetheless, I applaud your passion and conviction for your stance, despite the fact that I disagree with many of your posts and arguments.

-Neal

Neal, know that I do not at all mind your disagreement with some or many of my posts. Diversity is healthy.

I would take a guess that I can match your shouting matches in substance if not in volume (I try to avoid shouting). By the way, what I referred to is not a "consipiracy", just a fact of life; a modus operandi. When your interests and agenda do not conflict with those of your mainline partner or with what is seen as the interest of the union from a mainline perspective, they will be supported. When they do conflict they will not be. Throughout the process an extraordinary effort will be made to convice you that you have unqualified support and "we're on your side". What needs to be done, in the view of the powers that be will be done, with or without your knowledge.

That's how political organizations function and that is what ALPA is. Those with money and power get what they want. Those without it get what is left.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Neal, know that I do not at all mind your disagreement with some or many of my posts. Diversity is healthy.

I would take a guess that I can match your shouting matches in substance if not in volume (I try to avoid shouting). By the way, what I referred to is not a "consipiracy", just a fact of life; a modus operandi. When your interests and agenda do not conflict with those of your mainline partner or with what is seen as the interest of the union from a mainline perspective, they will be supported. When they do conflict they will not be. Throughout the process an extraordinary effort will be made to convice you that you have unqualified support and "we're on your side". What needs to be done, in the view of the powers that be will be done, with or without your knowledge.

That's how political organizations function and that is what ALPA is. Those with money and power get what they want. Those without it get what is left.

I know what you are saying and I definitely don't mind healthy debate. I also understand what ALPA is and what it isn't. But the apartheid you speak of isn't quite how I see it I guess. As a matter of fact, we've had several instances back when we were one MEC of mainline interests not aligning with ours (picketing their terminal for example) and we always made it work. Go figure. Didn't even involve ALPA National.

-Neal