ASA Converts CRJ200's to CRJ700's

[FixNFly]

Things that make you go Hmmmm.....

Yesterday ASA changed 4 of their CR-200's to CR-700's

Skip Barnett's memo:
"Last November, Delta Air Lines and its unit of the Air Line Pilots Association announced that they had ratified a new contract to deliver $1 billion in annual cost savings to Delta. This new agreement not only included savings through pilot pay reductions and work rule changes, but also allowed Delta’s regional airline partners to operate additional 70-seat aircraft within the confines of a revised “scope clause” between Delta and ALPA.

During town hall meetings late last year I said we’d be interested in flying additional CRJ700s, and would work to convert existing CRJ200 orders should the opportunity arise.

Today I’m pleased to announce that we were successful in converting four of our existing CRJ200 orders to CRJ700s for immediate delivery.

These four aircraft will arrive over the course of five weeks, with the first delivery arriving in our Macon Maintenance hangar on April 29 and the last delivery arriving in early June. I am confident our team will work to bring these aircraft into the fleet both quickly and efficiently in order to meet upcoming in-service requirements for the aircraft.

ASA remains interested in converting additional CRJ200s to CRJ700s should Delta be interested in continuing to grow our 70-seat fleet. At this time, however, we do not have any indication when or if additional conversions will be possible.

As always, it remains critical that we stay focused on operational performance, customer service and cost-effective flying to ensure that Delta continues to turn to us for growth.

Thank you for what you continue to do every day to help us meet these goals. "

 

[FDJ2]

Good for ASA. My hunch is the same will happen at CMR.

 

[Palerider957]

ASA and CMR can't really swallow more CRJ200's. I'm glad ASA/CMR/DAL are being proactive rather than just taking delivery of a ton of 200's that won't do them much good.

 

[bvt1151]

Good for ASA. My hunch is the same will happen at CMR.

The 10 50-seaters are actual aircraft that have already been built and flown by Independence. I don't think its possible to convert those to 70's since Bombardier isn't even in the loop. Its all through GECAS.

 

[DDpaysoff]

Good for ASA. My hunch is the same will happen at CMR.

Comair is not taking delivery of new A.C. They are recieving 10 of 12 G.E Capital aircraft that delta is obligated to assume the leases on as part debt renegotiations last year. I have no idea where the other two are going (ASA).
Comair said no to paycuts last year for a guaranteed 49 canadair Regional jets and 32 Dornier Jets, thus an RFP was created and the growth a.c were 'auctioned off' to other DCI carriers. Comair will however, likely be announcing a signifigant order for new 70 seaters within the next month and a half. The financing will be done through the R.J. Credit facility which is basically an open line of credit Delta has for purchasing R.J.'s. The terms and type A.C. is TBD. The 70 seaters were coming to comair/asa regardless of comair freezes, however, Butrell was given the opportunity to acquire Embeaer aircraft if it could break even on 70 seat acquisition costs, (same costs of acquiring Canadair prodect, hence the freeze). These costs are somewhere around 20 million dollars and the freeze will offset the startup costs for new equipment deliveries. Having the E-170 gave comair a better chance of getting the bulk of the 70 seaters available. If Delta keeps its word, there will be an order for 25 E-170's, if Delta gets cheap they will order canadairs from bombardier, who has less negotiating power than embraer.
Delta plans on having the max number of 70 seat regional jets allowed by scope by mid 2007 to replace 737-200's provided DAL doesn't chapter 11, in which case there will be a larger number of 70 seat a.c ordered if DAL bancruptcy judge throws out scope clauses. Chautauqua will have 16 ERJ 170's, and the rest of the 70 seat a.c will be at Comair and ASA, at least as of right now.
Blah, Blah, this is from a Delta higher up or Lawyer , I can't say which one, blah, blah. Also, they told me the reason the Dorniers are not flying is becuase there is still a possiblity of Delta Ch. 11 and they can get out of the leases if this happens. They will not make a decision on these until they know the threat of Ch. 11 is gone. But, the dornier thing was only a guess.
Just a guess, but I would expect a larger order of 70 seat a.c for ASA take the scope number subtract 16 CHQ E-170's, 25CMR 70 seaters and whatever ASA and comair have on the property right now, and I would expect that number to be 70 seat growth for ASA. Good luck.

 

[shamrock]

Thread hijack, sort of, regarding Skywest RFP jets.

A liitle birdie in the crew lounge was saying that Skywest's RFP jets were to be purchased by ASA because ASA could get better terms from Bombardier. The plan was for ASA to then lease the jets to Skywest, but the story is that ASA has now decided to keep them.

Just thought it interesting if it's true. Don't shoot the messenger!

 

[701EV]

To bad we don't have anybody to fly them! This past January we kicked off about twenty or so Captains. Then within a month there were 2 opening and there were 5 awards. Right now reserve sucks on the 700. Flew 72 hrs last month and 40 of it was in the right seat. I'm getting real good with the paper work and the CG wheel.

I'll bet they knew all along they were getting the 700s.

Just remember... it sucks a lot less know than it use to.

701EV

 

[Smacktard]

To bad we don't have anybody to fly them! This past January we kicked off about twenty or so Captains. Then within a month there were 2 opening and there were 5 awards. Right now reserve sucks on the 700. Flew 72 hrs last month and 40 of it was in the right seat. I'm getting real good with the paper work and the CG wheel.

I'll bet they knew all along they were getting the 700s.

Just remember... it sucks a lot less know than it use to.

701EV

I think around 20 FOs are about to hit the schedule in May on the 70. Perhaps there will be a little relief for ya.

 

[AV8700]

and while they were kicking the 20 off the airplane they had a class right next door upgrading. I doubt we'll get much relief, with that many aircraft any new openings will go very senior.

 

[FDJ2]

Having the E-170 gave comair a better chance of getting the bulk of the 70 seaters available. If Delta keeps its word, there will be an order for 25 E-170's, if Delta gets cheap they will order canadairs from bombardier, who has less negotiating power than embraer.

I don't quite get the "if Delta keeps its word" part. Did Delta make a commitment to CMR on the E170s? I thought it was more of a carrot that was dangled in order to secure the pilot concessions at CMR.

The E170 is a fine aircraft, but there is something to be said about fleet commonality, which will probably tilt the scales in favor of the CRJ70. JMO.

 

[bvt1151]

The E170 is a fine aircraft, but there is something to be said about fleet commonality, which will probably tilt the scales in favor of the CRJ70. JMO.

We could operate 1000 DC-3's and enjoy 100% fleet commonality but would that be best? The point is that fleet commonality in an inferior airframe may not be the best choice when trying to run business. Perhaps Comair will now enjoy fleet commonality with future E170's as they move into newer technology.

 

[Smacktard]

We could operate 1000 DC-3's and enjoy 100% fleet commonality but would that be best? The point is that fleet commonality in an inferior airframe may not be the best choice when trying to run business. Perhaps Comair will now enjoy fleet commonality with future E170's as they move into newer technology.

The CR7 may be an inferior airframe but since when did Delta get so picky about customer preference? From a pax perspective, it's [170] bigger/roomier. But on the operational side, it's heavier and burns more fuel-yet carries the same number of people. Unless they get a helluva deal, what's the point in adopting 'newer technology'? To please customers that think they're flying on a mainline 'big' jet?

 

[bvt1151]

The EMB170 carries more revenue than the CR7. Either with 8 more seats, or with 6 first class seats. Don't underestimate first class revenue. A full first class will cover the cost to run the flight. This more than justifies the extra fuel burn.
The EMB 170 can also carry a larger payload further than the CR7. As much as I love the CR7, it does not stack up to the EMB 170 unless you're going to keep it on stage lengths of 400 nm or less. If that's the case you're better off with a Q400.
Not to mention Delta is hard up to compete with JetBlue who'll have 190's on the property.


But...
Bombardier has their new and improved CR7 coming out. I can't wait to see that thing climb! The best improvement though is in the range specs and first class seating. This may be more competitive, but I still think Delta has their heart set on the passenger favorite.

 

[FDJ2]

We could operate 1000 DC-3's and enjoy 100% fleet commonality but would that be best?

Well that depends on what you are doing with the airframe. You're still just moving 70 pax from point A to point B in the same amount of time, so why add complexity and cost? If DAL feels the need for E170s, they can get them from the non wholly owned without incurring any more debt.

 

[bvt1151]

Well that depends on what you are doing with the airframe. You're still just moving 70 pax from point A to point B in the same amount of time, so why add complexity and cost? If DAL feels the need for E170s, they can get them from the non wholly owned without incurring any more debt.

Or they could put them at the wholly owned's in anticipation for an IPO.

 

[MedFlyer]

If DAL feels the need for E170s, they can get them from the non wholly owned without incurring any more debt.

What's the difference if DAL incurs debt for CRJ700's or E170's....it's still debt either way. You might want to be careful with the fleet commonality argument because if you're going to use that, then logically DL should NEVER order any 787's or E190's for mainline in the future.

The reality is that DL needs a more passenger friendly aircraft at the regional level. JetBlue is getting ready to launch a massive assault on DL with their E190's. DL will have to respond and the CRJ isn't going to cut it and Song won't be an option. Ideally, mainline DL would respond with their own E190's, but I don't think DL can get the financing for E190's nor operate them profitably given DL's mainline cost structure.

I know you don't want Comair to get E170's because you are simply mad at Comair for growing. However, these planes could have been (and should have been) yours many years ago. But you turned your nose up at them, so you really shouldn't complain when they go to someone else.

 

[FDJ2]

What's the difference if DAL incurs debt for CRJ700's or E170's....it's still debt either way. No it's not. Chq financed their own E170s for DCI. DAL incurred no debt as a result.

But you turned your nose up at them, so you really shouldn't complain when they go to someone else.

That's jibberish and you know it. The only reason any DCI carrier is getting more CRJ70s and E170s is because it was taken from the mainline through concessionary bargaining. It had nothing to do with mainline not wanting it.

 

[scarlet]

I am on the 700-- and only if you are in the top 20 in the capt. or FO category,, the Schedules SUCK---there is no choice. You are doing 4 day trips every month, there are no day lines, very few two 2 days, and no 3 on 4 off. Not sure why you would go from 3 on 4 off ......to working 4 days everyweek and every month..

JUST look closely at the lines..Before you bid...KNOW your BID....

I am trying to get back to the 50-seater, they will not let you bid back-so make sure that you want the 70 seater for good!!!!!!

Any ideas on getting back to the 50--new hires get it but my 3 years can not get back to it??? Thanks for the great language in the contract, hope it gets better, this time around...

 

[~~~^~~~]

I don't quite get the "if Delta keeps its word" part.

Exactly - Delta made no promises and is not in a position to keep the promises it makes. First, Delta has no money. Second, the Delta MEC controls the airplanes, right?

And just remember - ASA took no concessions for growth.

 

[~~~^~~~]

That's jibberish and you know it. The only reason any DCI carrier is getting more CRJ70s and E170s is because it was taken from the mainline through concessionary bargaining. It had nothing to do with mainline not wanting it.

Not jibberish. You read your own negotiator's notepad(s)? The gus who negotiate Delta's contracts know that they wil not be flying those "small jets." Show me your E jet pay rates in your contract..... I thought so.

Like I've said before, you junior birdmen should be RJDC supporters.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Any ideas on getting back to the 50 ? ...

A dirty roll on takeoff during your next Proficiency Check should do the trick....

 

[bvt1151]

And just remember - ASA took no concessions for growth.

Depends on what you call concessions.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Depends on what you call concessions.

Would you elaborate?

 

[49W]

wear bright red earmuffs to your Training Review Board and quote the Prop Overspeed immediate action items for the E-120, then re - bid what you want.

That was just mean.

 

[FL990]

We could operate 1000 DC-3's and enjoy 100% fleet commonality but would that be best? The point is that fleet commonality in an inferior airframe may not be the best choice when trying to run business. Perhaps Comair will now enjoy fleet commonality with future E170's as they move into newer technology.

What makes you say that the CRJ is an inferior airframe to the E-170. Just because the E-170 has more "toys" doesn't make it more structurally sound. Everyone knows that the CRJ isn't the longest lasting airplane on the planet (not even close) but the ERJ's haven't proved themselves any better...just because the E-170 is bigger and has wing mounted engines doesn't make it magically last longer.

I'm all about flying cool stuff, but is seems like everyone gets a woody everytime there is a chance to fly something with more toys.....problem is one day they will invent the toy that takes our job!!!

 

[bvt1151]

Would you elaborate?

Sure.

I'm not interested in conflict in this area, but nor am I inclined to allowing the pot call the kettle black at our expense. ASA has received aircraft within the last year (most specifically the 2004 RFP) due to what every analyst said was Comair's inability to concede. ASA bid for those aircraft on a pilot contract far inferior to Comair's, but they did not turn those down. ASA ceded their ability to force management to sign a new contract by disallowing the new jets to arrive. Every day after the current contract expiration date that ASA does not have a new contract is a concession. Do I blame them? Absolutely not. They need to do what's best for ASA pilots. On the flip side, ASA pilots (or any pilots with an inferior contract) need to be cognisant of hypocrisy before complaining that Comair took a pay freeze for what was ultimately best for Comair pilots.

What makes you say that the CRJ is an inferior airframe to the E-170. Just because the E-170 has more "toys" doesn't make it more structurally sound.

If my customers (pax) say its superior, then we'd better believe them. I'm actually in favor of Bombardier technology with their "toys" but its what the passengers want, not what we want. As far as I'm concerned, the CRJ-700 is about the most pilot-friendly airplane out there. But the pilots don't pay the bills. We are the bills.

Everyone knows that the CRJ isn't the longest lasting airplane on the planet (not even close) but the ERJ's haven't proved themselves any better...just because the E-170 is bigger and has wing mounted engines doesn't make it magically last longer.

Who said anything about airframe longevity? I'd put money on a Bombardier product outlasting an Embraer product any day, but if its leased it doesn't really matter anyways. Now if you're talking about passenger appeal, then the EMB 170 with its superior cabin will keep the aircraft favorable in the passengers eyes longer.

I'm all about flying cool stuff, but is seems like everyone gets a woody everytime there is a chance to fly something with more toys.....problem is one day they will invent the toy that takes our job!!!

I think this all started with explaining how fleet commonality benefits deteriorate with increases in technology. I'd hardly call that getting a woody for something with more toys.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

ASA has received aircraft within the last year (most specifically the 2004 RFP) due to what every analyst said was Comair's inability to concede. ASA bid for those aircraft on a pilot contract far inferior to Comair's, but they did not turn those down. ASA ceded their ability to force management to sign a new contract by disallowing the new jets to arrive.

Just what did you expect ASA pilots to do? Should we have refused to fly them? I don't think the Judge would've been too happy with that. ASA pilots refused to extend the current contract, which would have been a concession. We said no, we would not concede for growth. We got the planes anyway. This should have been a testament that pilots do not have to buy aircraft. Unfortunately, a majority percentage of Comair pilots felt differently. Enjoy your concession jets!

 

[bvt1151]

I would have done exactly what the ASA pilots did. I don't blame them a bit. I just don't think its appropriate for them to give the Comair pilots grief for taking a pay freeze when every day they don't negotiate is another day for the ASA pay freeze. Only ASA's pay freeze is much much lower than Comair's.

 

[FmrFreightDog]

I would have done exactly what the ASA pilots did. I don't blame them a bit. I just don't think its appropriate for them to give the Comair pilots grief for taking a pay freeze when every day they don't negotiate is another day for the ASA pay freeze. Only ASA's pay freeze is much much lower than Comair's.

What exactly did we do? The only thing we did was say we wouldn't take a pay freeze (contract extension actually, same thing). I'm glad you don't blame us one bit. Wait.... what do you have to blame us for anyway? I swear I think Comair is the only airline in the world where the pilots' heads continue to swell after they've been tucked between their legs.

 

[Traumahawk]

...Comair took a pay freeze for what was ultimately best for Comair pilots.

Not to start anything here....but I love this quote. Just sums up a great deal of the past 12 months....