ASA clears flightsafety pool.

[Sooneruga]

ASA, FSI

I've talked to the HR folks at ASA and they did seem to be very happy with FSI, but I didn't get the same impression about ATA.
And I don't think they will be re-opening the Fast Track program anytime soon (at least a year).

Also, it is my understanding that many of the people who operated ATA about a year or so ago are now running the show at TAB Express

 

[Bluto]

172 driver,
61.51 allows a flight instructor to log pic time when giving instruction, however, 61.195 (g) and 91.109 seem to pretty clearly indicate that logging this time from the back seat is not approved. I think we can all agree that any time logged from the back seat as an instructor is shady at best. Two pilots logging PIC through the safety pilot rules is, however, completely legitimate.

 

[Eagle]

.... I routinely have problems affecting my safety with ATA planes in the practice area and around airports.

No use of the radio to announce position ....... Not illegal but unsafe, IMO. Also, not good training. Why not talk to ATC like everyone else...it's a big part of instrument flight.

blah blah blah.

it is your responsibility to maintain separation. not every airplane has a radio,

Sounds like they are just prepping you for some experience in the real aviation world.

Unless of course they fly gliders. Gliders suck.

 

[172driver]

"it is your responsibility to maintain separation. not every airplane has a radio"
"Sounds like they are just prepping you for some experience in the real aviation world."

I did most of my initial training in the mountains in California where almost nobody had a radio and I didn't mind it a bit, so settle down. BTW, how many mountains (not east coast hills) have you flown in? That's real world. However, we are now flying and practicing within the lateral limits of Orlando Class B airspace where there is a very busy mix of IFR, VFR, training, and aerobatics. Yes, it is my responsibility to maintain separation, and I do, of course. ATA flies brand new airplanes that DO have radios. I feel that they should be used--helps everybody maintain separation.

I think almost everybody would agree that flying instrument approaches in busy airspace without talking to ATC is not very smart. It's a pain in the a** for ATC and the other pilots. Also, as I said before, it's not good training. When are you going to do this in the "real world?" Spoke to an ATA student in another thread who said they have a very tough time talking to ATC because they do a lot of practice approaches without it.

I don't mind a/c at uncontrolled fields not using radios. It is something we have to expect in the "real world" and is good training for my students to have to keep an eye out for this. In fact, I make my students do it to simulate electrical failure or lost comms.

"61.51 allows a flight instructor to log pic time when giving instruction, however, 61.195 (g) and 91.109 seem to pretty clearly indicate that logging this time from the back seat is not approved. I think we can all agree that any time logged from the back seat as an instructor is shady at best. Two pilots logging PIC through the safety pilot rules is, however, completely legitimate."

Bluto,
Agreed. Although those regs don't specifically state that the CFI must be sitting at the station with the dual controls, I believe that is the intent of the regs you mentioned.

Two pilots logging PIC is completely legit. However, I believe the airlines look down upon those hours as a safety pilot. To do it once in a while for instrument practice is totally OK, but to build 500 PIC multi hrs, as they do at ATA, is a little questionable IMO. How many of those hrs do you really think they were under the hood? Employers aren't stupid. 3 pilots logging it, while maybe legal by the letter of the law, is very shady. I think we all agree on that.

Fly safe and have fun all.

 

[Eagle]

I did most of my initial training in the mountains in California where almost nobody had a radio and I didn't mind it a bit, so settle down. BTW, how many mountains (not east coast hills) have you flown in? That's real world.

WoW!! you were a student pilot in the mountains of cali. heaven sakes alive, I stand corrected.

I have plenty of time (think hours with zeros after them) flying terrain, (look it up) As soon as you start flying in the FLs give me a call. or better yet, when you start to work with equipment that doesn't have a propeller...naw never mind

 

[172driver]

Very nice personal attack but what have you to say about the issue?

 

[8sm]

I recently held short behind another famous name companies twin aircraft, I think the name started with an A and ended with a P, where everyone logs PIC, this was during a checkride. The DE glanced over at the twin, shaking his head while making some very choice comments on this companies training program. He then took out his camera, snapped 2 pictures one of the AC & tail number the other of the cabin. Then he said " Look at the backseat the instructor is asleep " Must have been one of the all night cross countries.
The DE said to me, do the right thing, all operators will give preference to the logbook that shows quality of experience. Don't short cut yourselves, your responsiable for those you transport as well as those you fly over.
Several months later the DE mentioned, he sent the pictures to OKC, as he and others continue to build a case against this type of practice.

 

[tbkane]

As an ex captain at ASA, I flew with 10-15 of the ATA guys, and felt that all but one were of very good quality! (The number for non ATA was about the same) I do not think it is where you do your training, but the person doing the learning that is most important.

I wish programs like this were around back when I had to do my training, 121 right seat experience in a jet of EMB-120 is much more valuable than teaching straight and level for the 4,000th time.

 

[aewanabe]

Hey 8SM:
A and P letters huh? If you're talking about ATP, you're flat wrong. Depending on the stage of training, 3 people in a/c usually means Student plus CFI in front, other student in back (and yes, sometimes/often sleeping). These are when first student flies first leg of X/C, stop for lunch/dinner etc then swap legs and fly home. Only front-seaters log time here. Other scenario is two students together in front seats after they earned pvt/multi/inst. ATP often uses these time-building flights to ferry students for checkrides etc... ie person in back sleeping is a PAX. I did this program 1 year ago BTW, and prior to 9/11 our CFI's were getting swallowed up left and right by regionals, most with less than 1k hours. Many were turning down places like Eagle to wait for MESA, Skyway, etc (remembere when upgrade time was the big issue of the day?). And of my 115 logged multi-engine hours in the program, 28 were safety pilot. All the rest is stick time during PVT/ME training, IFR training, COMM/MEI/CFII checkride prep.

 

[aggiepilot87]

Re. ATP, my experience with them was very professional and worth the money spent. On several of my rides (me in the left, MEI in the right) a student went along to observe in the back seat.

Of course, the situation may be different at other ATP locations with other instructors. Even though I had a good experience with the Houston office and regularly compliment them, I had one of their instructors get mouthy with me on the radio the other day. Doesn't seem too smart to shoot off your mouth at people on the radio when everyone knows who you are.

 

[Boxer]

Uh, If I could interject here....

Anyone else get the nod for a May ASA class? The posting for June vacancies at DFW ops showed 2 DFW CRJ FOs, 5 EMB DFW FOs, 7 ATL ATR FOs, and about 5 each for ATL CRJ FOs and EMB FOs. The June preliminary awards showed those Dallas FO positions going to new hires to be announced (ATL wasn't posted yet at Dallas). It appears there is a new hire class in the works but no one seems to have heard anything concrete.

 

[8sm]

aewannbe,

With the owners having connection with the airlines their students do have access to interviews, some faster than others. With what success, that's for those that done it to bring to the table. Like yourself, how did you do in the interview, ground school, IOE. Did your training experience fully prepare you for the airline. Sharing with those likely to attend these type of school, help with their descision to spending that much money upfront and its benefits.
When I looked into it 5 years ago, I was invited by Jim, to the airport for information and to see the operation. There I met with and spoke with three of their instructors. I was interested on where they flew for their cross countries flights. They spoke of flying to remote locations and busy airports for Breakfast, Lunch or Dinner, they could go anywhere they wanted too.
Then they offered what you disbute, the flights are conducted with one student under the hood, one student as safety pilot and the instructor in the backseat, instructing. At that time, just starting out,I was not aware of how to log time so I did not question the legalities or even think of PIC time. With all listening to this explanation, noone interjected to correct anything being said. Maybe their training has changed since you trained with them.
Anyways, I'm glad you and others had a good experience with them, while others, posting here and on other boards, have not. There are good pilots and bad pilots as well as good examiners and bad examiners.
In the end, we all have to prove our abilities, experience and logbook entries to those we seek employment from.

Thanks for your reply

 

[ifly4food]

Uh, I hate to take the wind out of you's sails, but ASA announced LAST SUMMER that the last of the FSI and ATA people had been hired and no more would follow. Thje originasl post is bogus. They may have finally given classes to some who had been hired last summer, but ASA has stated it will no longer hire FSI grads, ATA grads or even interns below 1200/200 mins.
It is fact that these low time individuals had a much higher washout rate than those with experience and the training costs began to outweigh the benefit of a pilot pipeline for ASA.
Now, with airlines furloughing and pilots with thousands of hours looking for jobs, ASA or any other airline would be stupid to take a chance with a low timer.
The days of the "direct track" or whatever you call it are over for a while. Save your money.

An ASA pilot.

 

[MetroSheriff]

IFF,

I can tell you that is not completely true. I know FIRSTHAND of a guy (personal aquaitance) who was just called last week and assigned a May 6 class date from the Fast Track program. No BS. Further this is not a class on a job previously offered. Last fall he was told it would be at least a year before ASA started hiring again. Turns out it was more like 6 months.

 

[ifly4food]

Originally posted by Ifly4food
They may have finally given classes to some who had been hired last summer, but ASA has stated it will no longer hire FSI grads, ATA grads or even interns below 1200/200 mins.

What I said is accurate. They have given classes to those "hired" previously (ie in the "pool", but no new ones will be hired.

ASA has not conducted interviews since last summer. That is a fact. Your friend couldn't have been added to the pool recently, he was just hired from the pool. Granted, you're not officially "hired" until the first day of class, but you know what I mean.