ASA ALPA Proposes Hiring DAL Pilots

[Freebrd]

Posted this on the major board also:

During our most recent negoiating sessions in SAV, we proposed hiring of furloughed DAL pilots before any other pilots. ASA management is opposed to this which is strange as we already hire furloughed DAL pilots, and we're owned by DAL.

 

[Palerider957]

If furloughed DAL guys with good attitudes want to come to ASA, more power to them. I can't imagine many will come, as they would be at the bottom of seniority lists during contract battles.

They could litteraly make more money and have better benefits and scheudling at Home Depot.

 

[~~~^~~~]

The Delta guys that I have had the privlege to fly with have been top notch, with great attitudes.

It is a shame the Delta MEC did not take the right action to bring us all together in 2000.

 

[No Delay]

I don't believe they were implying that flying at ASA would be better than flying at Delta. I think they simply wanted to give the Delta guys the opportunity to keep flying until they could get back to Delta....


I heard today Delta posted another billion dollar loss for the quarter...

Fins and General, you guys seem to have a pretty good grasp on what is going on at Delta. When you hear news like this, does it worry you? (it does me) What are your thoughts?

 

[PCL_128]

It is a shame the Delta MEC did not take the right action to bring us all together in 2000.

No, it's a shame that JC Lawson is a worthless sack that has the people skills of a rock.

 

[~~~^~~~]

PCL - we agree on JC's value. But how is he responsible for Charles Giambusso lying to the BOD and Duane Woerth going along? How is he responsible for ALPA's failure to deter alter ego airline operations?

No Delay - I'm very concerned and doubt Delta will be able to survive in it's current form. Despite the cuts and an efficient flight operation, apparently there just remains too much management expense. Having triple redundant management at Delta, Delta Connection, ASA and Comair are a fine example of how millions are being burned without creating any productive energy, or additional revenue.

Delta's numbers for the Connection operation are too closely held to really know the value, or performance, of the RJ operation. Delta seems intent on taking more 50 seaters, so they must see them as profitable.

Delta has growth opportunities and the long term picture looks good if Delta could get the money to grow mainline internationally. Unfortunately I do not see how we are going to get there with our current resources. More than likely we will see more mainline negotiations and scope relief that puts the E190 at CHQ, or Comair.

 

[PCL_128]

PCL - we agree on JC's value. But how is he responsible for Charles Giambusso lying to the BOD and Duane Woerth going along? How is he responsible for ALPA's failure to deter alter ego airline operations?

I agree with you that ALPA has made many huge mistakes since the RJ came on the scene over a decade ago. Where we disagree is what those mistakes were. You argue for less mainline scope, whereas I think ALPA never should have allowed a single jet on a regional's property no matter how many seats it had. Scope isn't too restrictive, it's too loose. ALPA's biggest mistake (and DALPA's specifically) was not recognizing how the RJ could be used against them via whipsaw.

That idiot Lawson may not be responsible for all of the problems at DAL and DCI, but he is the major roadblock standing in the way of mending fences. I live and commute out of Atlanta, so I talk to Delta pilots all the time and most of them will never have anything to do with Comair as long as JC is running the show and the RJDC lawsuit is still going. If you want to fix the current bad blood between pilots at DAL and DCI, then you're going to have to drop that lawsuit and the CMR MEC is going to have to get a new Chairman. Maybe then the General and the rest of the DAL pilots can start to forgive things like the CMR MEC not supporting the hiring of DAL furloughs.

 

[~~~^~~~]

PCL :

Perfect scope is all Delta flying being performed by Delta pilots. The RJDC's effort would make scope stronger. Even ALPA and the Delta MEC have endorsed this under their "Brand Scope" rhetoric. Unfortunately there is not enough incentive for the Delta MEC ( hence ALPA ) to do the right thing and force the Company out of the alter ego flying businesses.

But, incentive may be coming. I can pretty much promise you that with Delta's cash dwindling, management will be back for more negotiations and scope will be on the table.

~~~^~~~

 

[PCL_128]

The RJDC's effort would make scope stronger

I just can't understand how someone as smart as you can believe this crap. You can't force Delta to merge the list, so the only result of the RJDC winning the lawsuit (not gonna happen) would be the complete removal of all scope language from the DAL PWA. How can you not recognize this? Read the last remaining point in the lawsuit that the judge hasn't thrown out yet. It seeks to stop one pilot group from creating scope language that hinders the growth of another pilot group. That's all scope language!!! That may not be your intent Fins, but it would be the end result from a victory for the RJDC.

 

[~~~^~~~]

PCL :

Scope would be stronger if it were inclusive, not exclusive. For example, ALPA is playing with this language at Comair with the concessionary deal. Minimum fleet numbers protect the Comair pilots while not excluding other pilots from whatever growth their airline can maintain.

Further, I don't think you understand the lawsuit. In the specific case of Delta, ALPA first blocked ASA and Comair pilots from negotiating with the party in control - Delta. Then, after locking the ASA and Comair guys out, ALPA negotiated scope which was very harmful to the ASA and Comair pilots. Locking someone out, then taking from their working group is not equal representation.

If ASA and Comair pilots had equal representation and were not barred by ALPA's own love for alter ego management then Delta would be forced to deal with all three pilot groups. The Delta MEC would act to maintain its control and would have probably insist on a merger.

Anyone familiar with the negotiations at ASA knows that our negotiations with ASA's management team are a sham. While the ASA pilots might not like the result, the only way to properly conduct business is to have the real parties at the table.

ASA and Comair pilots are still locked out and senior Delta pilots do not care enough about the junior guys to do the right thing at the negotiating table. The result is continued and expanded Connection growth while management runs right through the ineffective scope blockade that ALPA throws out to pacify the junior members.

~~~^~~~

 

[N2264J]

Re: ASA ALPA Proposese Hiring DAL Pilots

That idiot Lawson may not be responsible for all of the problems at DAL and DCI, but he is the major roadblock standing in the way of mending fences. I live and commute out of Atlanta, so I talk to Delta pilots all the time and most of them will never have anything to do with Comair as long as JC is running the show and the RJDC lawsuit is still going. If you want to fix the current bad blood between pilots at DAL and DCI, then you're going to have to drop that lawsuit and the CMR MEC is going to have to get a new Chairman. Maybe then the General and the rest of the DAL pilots can start to forgive things like the CMR MEC not supporting the hiring of DAL furloughs.

Not only are you an ignorant mainline suckup, you're naive and corrosive. Me? I'm just corrosive but I don't base my self worth/esteem on what Generally or his compatriots think. And that lawsuit isn't going away until ALPA provides the equal representation they owe us under federal law.

By the way, the last I heard, two Delta furloughees have interviewed for a job at Comair. One was hired.

 

[PCL_128]

Not only are you an ignorant mainline suckup, you're naive and corrosive. Me? I'm just corrosive but I don't base my self worth/esteem on what Generally or his compatriots think. And that lawsuit isn't going away until ALPA provides the equal representation they owe us under federal law.

By the way, the last I heard, two Delta furloughees have interviewed for a job at Comair. One was hired.

ALPA has provided you everything required under the law. If you're too dense and brainwashed by Lawson and his ilk to see that, then I pity you.

 

[N2264J]

ALPA has provided you everything required under the law. If you're too dense and brainwashed by Lawson and his ilk to see that, then I pity you.

If you're a Pinnacle pilot as I suspect you are, how would you have any idea what ALPA has provided Comair pilots?

Did you know, for example, that Comair pilots had to assess themselves because ALPA cut off the money for negotiations during the bagaining for that industry leading contract everyone is accusing us of giving up? If that wasn't bad enough, they then telegraphed their "support" for Comair pilots to management with the ALPA publication "Heads Up" about the union's financial restructuring and the Flight Pay Loss "overspending" by some MECs. We were in the middle of negotiations, ferchrisake.

Save your condescending, insincere pity for the likes of billionaire felon, Martha Stewart. I don't need or want it.

 

[acarpe3448]

"Further, I don't think you understand the lawsuit. In the specific case of Delta, ALPA first blocked ASA and Comair pilots from negotiating with the party in control - Delta. Then, after locking the ASA and Comair guys out, ALPA negotiated scope which was very harmful to the ASA and Comair pilots. Locking someone out, then taking from their working group is not equal representation."


Negotiated scope which was very harmful to the ASA and Comair pilots? Every time I read this statement it makes me want to puke! Which harmful effect are you refering to, the billions of dollars of NEW aircraft that you all received?, the huge growth for your companies?, the massive number of pilots hired (not a single furloughed Delta pilot at Comair)?, the huge number of upgrades that resulted from your growth leading to higher earnings for your pilots?, Give me a break! Not a one of you guys were thrown out on the street! Try living on unemployment, trying to support your family, while watching the huge growth and transfer of flying to your airlines! Try giving up 100% of your salary for 3 years, try loosing your house, loosing all of your savings, etc. etc. Post 9-11 was hard on everyone, but please don't try to convince me that there was any scope restrictions in place that restricted your growth, slowed your career progression, kept you from getting more jets, or led to a single one of you loosing your job!

 

[michael707767]

More than likely we will see more mainline negotiations and scope relief that puts the E190 at CHQ, or Comair.

Keep dreaming. More 70 seaters.....I see that happening. The line will stay at 70 seats though.

 

[scarlet]

Why does DL have 3 mang. teams to run ASA,Comair, and then DCI...Think of the money that is being paid to President of DCI, ASA President, Comair President...and then all their teams?????

WHY???????????????????? ALL these people to do the same thing????

If I was a delta pilot I would want to know WHY --- WHY---

All the majors DO NOT HAVE A Business PLAN !!!!!!!!!!

CUT WAGES and PENSIONS thats the answer.....

WE HAVE TO STOP AIRTRAN and JETBLUE

NEWS FLASH---matching their FARES is not WORKING!!!!!!!!!! HELLO--They are stilll growing like hell and all of us are losing a ton of money..I would hate to know I spent all that money in Grad school and still that dumb...

 

[~~~^~~~]

Negotiated scope which was very harmful to the ASA and Comair pilots?

Ok, so I left out the junior Delta pilots who suffered the most as a result of ALPA's misguided scope policies.

None the less, depositions are going forward and hopefully we can get this thing to trial. It is the only way to repair ALPA's alter ego love affair that is resulting in 500 hour wonders replacing Delta 737-200 pilots performing Delta flying.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Keep dreaming. More 70 seaters.....I see that happening. The line will stay at 70 seats though.

Not dreaming, more a nightmare. I don't fly at either of the airlines mentioned & think ALPA's scope policy is responsible for the wrecked state our union is in.

 

[~~~^~~~]

ALPA has provided you everything required under the law.

1. Where is the economic analysis of C2k scope and its subsequent revisions?
2. Where is the economic analysis of the "growth" in Comair concessionary deal?
3. Why can't my MEC negotiate my wages and working conditions with the entity that has operational control of my flying?

 

[PCL_128]

1. Where is the economic analysis of C2k scope and its subsequent revisions?
2. Where is the economic analysis of the "growth" in Comair concessionary deal?
3. Why can't my MEC negotiate my wages and working conditions with the entity that has operational control of my flying?

1. Not required by law
2. Not required by law
3. Not required by law

You can negotiate with the company you work for: ASA. The Delta pilots can negotiate with the company they work for: Delta. This is really very simple.

 

[acarpe3448]

Bottom line is that this lawsuit is all about getting you everything you want! Unlimited seats, unlimited jets, no protection for mainline pilots, merger, DOH, etc. etc. This lawsuit may be painted to look like an underdog fighting the good fight, but it still stinks-you can't polish a turd!

 

[atrdriver]

you can't polish a turd!

No, you can polish one, but it will still stink. How else can you explain lawyers?

 

[~~~^~~~]

1. Not required by law
2. Not required by law
3. Not required by law

Jackiepoo - You figure economic analysis of contracts is not required by law by a union with a fiduciary duty to its members? What about ALPA's own policy manuals that require economic analysis? Huh, why is it that the Delta pilots' MEC recieves economic analysis? Could it be that objective facts, like the sort of numbers ALPA's economists are so good a developing, tell the story of ALPA's malfeasance? Best not to answer questions when the answers tell you that you are leading the membership down the wrong path.

By the way - if you care so much about the law, why are you using a copyrighted symbol?

And Acarpe - You taking the high road with your effluvian references? You sure win a lot of hearts and minds with your intelligent responses. You continue to repeat the DOH lie. And again I challenge you to find one scrap of documentation for what you have written.

All we want is the representation from ALPA that we are entitled to. All signs are that this will happen and even Duane Woerth is commenting that the Courts may effect future scope negotiations.

It is time for ALPA to not make this a win / lose for their membership. ALPA has to change their position towards alter ego, or risk the alter ego's gaining control of their negotiating, which will probably have the same effect.

 

[PCL_128]

Jackiepoo - You figure economic analysis of contracts is not required by law by a union with a fiduciary duty to its members? What about ALPA's own policy manuals that require economic analysis? Huh, why is it that the Delta pilots' MEC recieves economic analysis? Could it be that objective facts, like the sort of numbers ALPA's economists are so good a developing, tell the story of ALPA's malfeasance? Best not to answer questions when the answers tell you that you are leading the membership down the wrong path.

There is no law on the books that requires a union to conduct economic analysis and you know it. ALPA provides analysis when it believes that it is necessary under the circumstances. Analysis has been provided to regionals in the past and it will be again when it becomes necessary and useful. Your argument that "Delta gets it so we should too" sounds very much like you've developed some kind of inferiority complex. You might want to get that checked out.

By the way - if you care so much about the law, why are you using a copyrighted symbol?

So sue me. I know you guys are fond of that sort of thing.

 

[~~~^~~~]

There is no law on the books that requires a union to conduct economic analysis and you know it. ALPA provides analysis when it believes that it is necessary under the circumstances.

Due Dilligence is required by representatives as part of their fiduciary obligation and if you need it spelled out for you in even more clear language please refer to section 40 of ALPA's adminstrative manual.

Had ALPA provided this "due dilligence" the failure of ALPA to represent its regional members would have been quantified by no less a source than ALPA's own economic analysis department.

Interesting to note that Comair's concessions and 35 growth aircraft were labelled by ALPA as "non-economic." I guess ALPA figures that economic analysis of a contract isn't necessary. Tell me, if it is not necessary for pay negotiations, just when is it necessary?

I doubt anyone is interested in suing you... after all you are one of the best advertisements for why the RJDC is necessary to try to fix our union

 

[PCL_128]

Fins, please understand that I'm not saying ALPA was right to deny you economic analysis. I'll be the first to admit that ALPA has made numerous grievous errors over the years as it relates to the regionals (and other issues for that matter). What I am saying, is that it is not illegal and it is not sufficient grounds for a DFR lawsuit. Problems within ALPA need to be addressed, but lawsuits are not the answer. This lawsuit, if won, would have so many negative consequences for everyone involved that I dare not think what the industry would look like afterwards.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Fins, please understand that I'm not saying ALPA was right to deny you economic analysis. I'll be the first to admit that ALPA has made numerous grievous errors over the years as it relates to the regionals (and other issues for that matter). What I am saying, is that it is not illegal and it is not sufficient grounds for a DFR lawsuit. Problems within ALPA need to be addressed, but lawsuits are not the answer. This lawsuit, if won, would have so many negative consequences for everyone involved that I dare not think what the industry would look like afterwards.

Ok, we filed grievances, raised issues at the LEC & MEC levels, met with National Officers and made presentations to the Bilateral Scope Impact Committee ( which interestingly has yet to report one word on the impact of scope ) for two years. A lawsuit had to be filed to protect the statute of limitations and still to this day ALPA has done nothing but make the situation worse. If actions speak louder than words, filing the lawsuit was the right thing to do and the smart thing to do. As Duane Woerth himself said, things will not change unless the Courts force it on the union.

If a win for the RJDC is such a bad thing that it would have gorrible negative consequences - why doesn't ALPA change course and open the doors we are locked out of? Or better yet, work to end alter ego air carriers all together?

Delta would be a more efficient Company without the triple redundant management needed to run the "portfolio of carriers." Sounds like there is plenty of room for a win win, but we can't get there if one third of the pilots in Delta's service are locked out of the room.

~~~^~~~

 

[cmrflyer]

All right people calm down. There is at least one Delta pilot at comair ( I saw him walking on water, so i have absolute proof he was a Delta pilot). Also, atleast one delta pilot got hired and didn't make it through training.

 

[Palerider957]

1. Not required by law
2. Not required by law
3. Not required by law

You can negotiate with the company you work for: ASA. The Delta pilots can negotiate with the company they work for: Delta. This is really very simple.

PCL 128, you missed your calling, you should have been a Crew Scheduler.

I have this image of you as a very junior FO, who has a mainline Father and big brother. If you re-read some of your posts, I think you would be surprised what you have written.

 

[PCL_128]

PCL 128, you missed your calling, you should have been a Crew Scheduler.

I have this image of you as a very junior FO, who has a mainline Father and big brother. If you re-read some of your posts, I think you would be surprised what you have written.

Wrong on all counts. Very senior FO, first pilot in the family, and no siblings.