ASA 705's

[~~~^~~~]

I basically agree with you. We should be concerned about what jobs are available to us in the future at the mainline carriers. On the other hand, we do need to make the most of our current situations, since who knows how long we will be at the regional level.

It's not really good for the profession as a whole when the mainlines continually shift more flying, and larger airframes, to regionals.

Lebowski - it is a nice thought that General, the boys at ALPA and Delta are looking out for the profession, but it is not true.

1. Delta has bid lower rates than ASA's current rates on CRJ700's for the 86 to 100 seat flying. Not only are these rates lower, they are way lower, $86 at 12 year Capt. These rates have not been "approved" but as you can read on this board, General has endless excuses for supporting the concessionary rates on "Regional" aircraft.
2. The Northwest Airlines MEC Chairman recently wrote against the TA they currently have out to vote. He correctly pointed out that the mainline rates on "Regional" aircraft would result in diminished career expectations for Northwest mainline pilots who would NEVER see a return to pay and quality of life currently associated with mainline flying.
3. When I hired in, ASA had 105 seat BAE146's on the property. ASA's airplanes are getting smaller, not larger.
4. In a post Delta world, ASA needs larger airplanes to better compete in the market. I think Delta is now at the point that its future operation should not be assumed.
5. You don't work for Delta. Changes are you will never work for Delta.
6. Delta's survival is iffy at best. Delta needs to do what is best for Delta without regard for what you, the General, or I think about it.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I basically agree with you. We should be concerned about what jobs are available to us in the future at the mainline carriers. On the other hand, we do need to make the most of our current situations, since who knows how long we will be at the regional level.

It's not really good for the profession as a whole when the mainlines continually shift more flying, and larger airframes, to regionals.

it is a nice thought that General, the boys at ALPA and Delta are looking out for the profession, but it is not true.

1. Delta has bid lower rates than ASA's current rates on CRJ700's for the 86 to 100 seat flying. Not only are these rates lower, they are way lower, $86 at 12 year Capt. These rates have not been "approved" but as you can read on this board, General has endless excuses for supporting the concessionary rates on "Regional" aircraft.
2. The Northwest Airlines MEC Chairman recently wrote against the TA they currently have out to vote. He correctly pointed out that the mainline rates on "Regional" aircraft would result in diminished career expectations for Northwest mainline pilots who would NEVER see a return to pay and quality of life currently associated with mainline flying.
3. When I hired in, ASA had 105 seat BAE146's on the property. ASA's airplanes are getting smaller, not larger.
4. In a post Delta world, ASA needs larger airplanes to better compete in the market. I think Delta is now at the point that its future operation should not be assumed.
5. You don't work for Delta. Changes are you will never work for Delta.
6. Delta's survival is iffy at best. Delta needs to do what is best for Delta without regard for what you, the General, or I think about it.

 

[Lebowski]

Reply to Fins

How did the replies on this thread get so out of order? The placement of the posts seems all jacked up.

Anyhoo....

Fins, I think you have some valid points, but I still think it's self-evident that more flying (and larger airplanes) is in fact being shifted to regionals. I admit that there are exceptions like the BAE example you pointed out. But I would simply counter that argument by pointing to examples like NewCo, Republic, and the fact that SkyWest had no 70-seaters on the property at all a couple years ago. The OVERALL pattern seems to be a shell game in which management (at the major and regional levels) shifts more flying away from mainline in order to cut costs. Now, if mainline pilots underbid regionals on similar sized aircraft, that's a whole other ballgame and I see your point there.

I totally agree with you that GL, ALPA, etc. aren't looking out for you or me. They are looking out for themselves. We obviously need to look out for our interests as well. But in a few years, our interests may be the same as theirs if we find ourselves at the majors.

I really hope we have the opportunity for some career advancement (majors) within a couple of years. In the meantime, I want the best pay/workrules we can get at this level. I just don't understand that mindset of regional pilots who are overjoyed to get more and more flying and bigger and bigger airplanes. That just seems shortsighted in terms of our careers.

Take care,

Lebowski

 

[Beantown]

705 is a 900 w/first class.

proline 4 w/6 tubes in both
thrust 13.123 lbs for both
wing span 81.6 feet
height 24.7 feet
legnth 119.4 feet
takeoff weights
std - 80,500
er - 82,500
lr - 84,500

all match.

http://www.crj.bombardier.com/CRJ/en/home.jsp

Yes those match, but they also have many difference that have already been pointed out. Plus, there is nothing stopping somone from putting first in a 900. Mesa had first in then when they initally came on the property. -Bean

 

[ASABound]

Why do we as pilots care what type/amount new aircraft come to our airline? We act like a bunch of 2 year olds. Mom can I have some of the gummy bears ?? Guys , how many of you want to go to the majors ? How many of you want this industry to recover to have some symbolism in the future of what it used to be like ? I know you guys don't like the General and the other DAL and mainline pilots on here but theses guys are indirectly looking after your career too when they don;t want larger aircraft to come to the regionals. It is our jobs as pilots, and as a union to fly whatever aircraft we are assigned i.e. C-172 or Crj-700, to our destination safely and in accordance with all applicable federal rules and regulations. No where does it say that we will be taken for a ride or have to bargain on what type of airrcraft we fly. I know we all want growth. It means better schedules , quicker upgrade, etc. but the bottom line, you are taking away from your future by getting into this whole race to the bottom just to get a 90 seat airplane outfitted with 75 or whatever seats. Tell Scott Hall and Charlie Tutt , as well as your union leadership that we want Pay, quality of Life , and benefits. Let General and the mainline guys have new growth. I am sure that you had much rather be flying that aircraft over at DAL than here. For those of you who say that the 70 -90 seater doesn't belong at mainline , well I have news for you. CAL/ TI flew the DC9-10, Piedmont /USAir flew the F-28 2000/4000 as well as american and Usair flew the F-100. these new aircraft belong at the mainline carriers. I don't care if we get no more aircraft 70 plus seat aircraft at ASA. I am tired of our pilot group drinking the koolaid to fly a new big shiny jet. I know I am going to bashed for this one, so fire away !!! Fly safe

 

[blueridge71]

My belief is that anything with a major's name on the side belongs at a major. Contracting the small stuff is where we got into trouble in the first place. Where do you draw the line?

The reality today is that the majors would not be competitive flying a small jet because they won't do it for regional rates, regional work rules, and regional benefits.

I do want pay and QOL at a regional, but the reality is that most of us DO want to move up. Doing that requires Turbine PIC. Without movement off the high end of the seniority list, the best and quickest way to get that JET CAPT time is through growth.

Delta, AA, US Airways and UAL are not going to be hiring anytime soon, even if they do get small jets. Making captain is therefore the best way to increase your income, if not your QOL.

That is regional reality.

 

[ohplease!]

Why do we as pilots care what type/amount new aircraft come to our airline? We act like a bunch of 2 year olds. Mom can I have some of the gummy bears ?? Guys , how many of you want to go to the majors ? How many of you want this industry to recover to have some symbolism in the future of what it used to be like ? I know you guys don't like the General and the other DAL and mainline pilots on here but theses guys are indirectly looking after your career too when they don;t want larger aircraft to come to the regionals. It is our jobs as pilots, and as a union to fly whatever aircraft we are assigned i.e. C-172 or Crj-700, to our destination safely and in accordance with all applicable federal rules and regulations. No where does it say that we will be taken for a ride or have to bargain on what type of airrcraft we fly. I know we all want growth. It means better schedules , quicker upgrade, etc. but the bottom line, you are taking away from your future by getting into this whole race to the bottom just to get a 90 seat airplane outfitted with 75 or whatever seats. Tell Scott Hall and Charlie Tutt , as well as your union leadership that we want Pay, quality of Life , and benefits. Let General and the mainline guys have new growth. I am sure that you had much rather be flying that aircraft over at DAL than here. For those of you who say that the 70 -90 seater doesn't belong at mainline , well I have news for you. CAL/ TI flew the DC9-10, Piedmont /USAir flew the F-28 2000/4000 as well as american and Usair flew the F-100. these new aircraft belong at the mainline carriers. I don't care if we get no more aircraft 70 plus seat aircraft at ASA. I am tired of our pilot group drinking the koolaid to fly a new big shiny jet. I know I am going to bashed for this one, so fire away !!! Fly safe

all this from a guy with SJS who took a job flying a CRJ for $19/hr....thats cute.

 

[ASABound]

oh please. I respect your opinion. but did you not take a job at asa for 19 dollars an hour?? I have been flying professionally for 6 years, been furloughed twice and I am at my 4th airline as a result of it. Yes I have been in the left seat , Yes I have worked for a larger airline before i came to ASA. My question to you is ? do you not agree with all of the other guys that were flying at other airlines such as myself who were furloughed and needed a job and decided to take this job. I have no problem with ASA,as a matter of fact it is probably one of the most proffessional / great goup of pilots that i have had the opportunity to work with. I am just trying to look after you , me, and everyone else. I have been on the other side of the fence, Trust me it is worth trying to get there , and to protect what little may be left

 

[ohplease!]

oh please. I respect your opinion. but did you not take a job at asa for 19 dollars an hour??

Nope. It paid less when I started here and it wasn't to fly a jet. Nice try though.

 

[ohplease!]

My question to you is ? do you not agree with all of the other guys that were flying at other airlines such as myself who were furloughed and needed a job and decided to take this job.

chill out man...I'm just havin' some fun on a rainy day. I'm gonna go have lunch at school with my son and then go take lunch to my daughter at here school (the real reasons I stay here at ASA by choice)..QOL baby. Nothing like it. CU in an hour or two.

 

[Lebowski]

I know you guys don't like the General and the other DAL and mainline pilots on here but theses guys are indirectly looking after your career too when they don;t want larger aircraft to come to the regionals.

I basically agree with you. We should be concerned about what jobs are available to us in the future at the mainline carriers. On the other hand, we do need to make the most of our current situations, since who knows how long we will be at the regional level.

It's not really good for the profession as a whole when the mainlines continually shift more flying, and larger airframes, to regionals.

 

[JustaNumber]

It's not really good for the profession as a whole when the mainlines continually shift more flying, and larger airframes, to regionals.

Amen! Unfortunately, ALPA dropped the ball on that one a long time ago, and the camel is now in the tent. Where do we go from here?

I don't think we'll EVER go back to the glory days of majors flying DC-9-10's , BAC 1-11's, and F-28's for major pay and benefits, without a major industrywide initiative by ALPA National, of which they are completely incapable of.

So will standing firm on higher pay at ASA put those 705's back at DAL? Doubtful. They would then go to Skywest. And future orders would go to Mesa.

That being said, someone does need to draw the line at how low we are willing to go, regardless of if we lose future jets. I say to everyone: figure out how high/low you personally are willing to go, and HOLD THAT LINE!

 

[crjskipper]

justanumber - i agree, mostly. Each of us has a different line. How do I draw a line that works for me but screws everyone else. How do I tell my kid that his dad is out of a job just in time for the summer. Not an easy dicision. ALPA let it happen years ago when they could care less about us. United and Delta had huge orders and they could care less if we flew lousy 70 seat jets.

Now the majors have stalled and agree to bargain basement rates for airplanes they dont have driving us lower and lower. The regionals now have to push us lower to keep planes coming to us.

Now - a 100$ rate at Delta is lightyears away from a 100$ rate at ASA. I can fly the 900 with no additional training - Delta - how much would that program cost. ASA operating 900s would be considerably more competitive than Delta flying 190s. No contest.

But the fact is DALPA accepted a rate with no concern for us. What Delta pilot cares? - it's not likely a pay cut for them since the FOs would mostly be furloughs and the captains from FO positions - if they ever get it.

 

[JustaNumber]

justanumber - i agree, mostly. Each of us has a different line. How do I draw a line that works for me but screws everyone else. How do I tell my kid that his dad is out of a job just in time for the summer. Not an easy dicision. ALPA let it happen years ago when they could care less about us. United and Delta had huge orders and they could care less if we flew lousy 70 seat jets.

Now the majors have stalled and agree to bargain basement rates for airplanes they dont have driving us lower and lower. The regionals now have to push us lower to keep planes coming to us.

Now - a 100$ rate at Delta is lightyears away from a 100$ rate at ASA. I can fly the 900 with no additional training - Delta - how much would that program cost. ASA operating 900s would be considerably more competitive than Delta flying 190s. No contest.

But the fact is DALPA accepted a rate with no concern for us. What Delta pilot cares? - it's not likely a pay cut for them since the FOs would mostly be furloughs and the captains from FO positions - if they ever get it.

crjskipper,
You are actually making your own excellent point for why you should hold the line. While Delta pilots may have negotiated a lowball rate to fly "RJ's" they don't have, Delta, Skywest Inc., ASA, etc. are claiming that this is the new benchmark for us. But as you said, our $100 rate is not the same as their $100 rate, and there is no way Delta will be performing that flying. We don't have to worry about them.

We may have to worry about Mesa, and especially Skywest Airlines, but I still think it's worth holding the line. After all, Skywest Inc. just invested many hundreds of millions of dollars in us, and despite all the bluffing, I am certain that Jerry won't let ASA wither and die over a few dollars in the overall pilot compensation package. Will we be able to steal Expressjet's or Pinnacle's flying? Maybe not, but who cares? I think we'll still do alright in the long run.

 

[Tim47SIP]

Skips correct!

Now - a 100$ rate at Delta is lightyears away from a 100$ rate at ASA. I can fly the 900 with no additional training - Delta - how much would that program cost. ASA operating 900s would be considerably more competitive than Delta flying 190s. No contest.


Well, justanumber the skipper took the wind out of my sails but he is right. I am kind of buffed trying to determine how the Gen and his staff thinks that just a low ball number concerning 71-100 seat wages is going to make mainline more competitive to capture the flying so they can raise the bar later. With their work rules and pay, even though they are lower in pay, their total compensation is considerably higher. I truly believe that they are going to get no where concerning this issue the way they are going about it. They should have the aircraft at mainline but their cost structure will prevent it. I think that DALPA knows what they want but isn't willing to give up what they have to to get there. Just thought!

 

[crjskipper]

agree with bothy of you. i will hold the line - but where that line should be is becoming a challenge. i do think the 705s will end up here, but then its too easy for SW to pull some of our 700s back to salt lake. this industry is hosed. mesa can offer lowball rates to soak up business, and now even pinnacle is in the game for our flying - how do you compete with that? Comair held the line - almost twice, and where did it get them? And these guys underbidding us are from the same union. I will hold my line - but i am very certain there are thousands of eager pilots willing to cross that line - they already have.

clearly some of our sister airlines have no line, that cuts our legs out. i dont blame ja for trying to draw his own line for us - hes smart and he can. business needs to grow to survive in his industry, ja knows that. he needs the same business mesa wants. alpa doesnt care - they only look out for the major guys. were between a rock and a hard place. we can get fired up, but ultimatelly someone would be all too willing to step in

sorry - just very frustrated