AS starts Bellingham-Honolulu

[CA1900]

I had heard the same thing, but couldn't find the information anywhere. Do you have a link?

http://tinyurl.com/243d34d

 

[CesnaCaptn]

http://tinyurl.com/243d34d

Thanks smarty pants. You don't think I did that? 6 of the 10 first page links are for Spokane Airport construction. Now post the link that mentions how much runway they are adding.

All the articles I have found are vague and just mention that 757s will be able to operate off the the new runway--well they can operate off the runway at its current length. I've scoured the Port of Bellingham site and still can't find how much runway they are adding.

 

[Dix-Bag]

AK will lose a lot of cash by doing battle on this one.. (at least after AAY starts the flights) This aint BLI-LAS..

A LEASED 737 that holds less than 150 Pax simply can not compete with a dirt cheap 6 million dollar OWNED 757 carrying 220. (not to mention one with RB211s and blended winglets)

What about 1st class?

If you're going to drive to BLI to avoid YVR Fares, I doubt you care about 1st class. Those canuks will just fly on an Air Canada widebody out of YVR.

 

[QCappy]

A LEASED 737 that holds less than 150 Pax simply can not compete with a dirt cheap 6 million dollar OWNED 757 carrying 220. (not to mention one with RB211s and blended winglets)

Actually, Alaska uses 737-800s that they have recently been paying for with CASH. They hold 16 in first class and 141 in coach, for a total of 157. They have cool blended winglets, too!:laugh:

 

[Dash8don]

AK will lose a lot of cash by doing battle on this one.. (at least after AAY starts the flights) This aint BLI-LAS..

A LEASED 737 that holds less than 150 Pax simply can not compete with a dirt cheap 6 million dollar OWNED 757 carrying 220. (not to mention one with RB211s and blended winglets)

What about 1st class?

If you're going to drive to BLI to avoid YVR Fares, I doubt you care about 1st class. Those canuks will just fly on an Air Canada widebody out of YVR.

I wouldn't be so quick to bet on that.
-If AS bleeds cash on the route, I'm betting AAY will be too, and in that department AS has a lot more staying power.
-While you may be able to carry more passengers, you will also need to be able to fill the seats. It's much easier to fill 160 seats than 220.
-The 757 has a higher fuel burn that the -800.
-AS has a loyal following in the PNW with their mileage plan and B of A Visa card.
-Our -800's are newer and therefore have better reliability.

Are these the RB211's you are bragging about?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DfTX-IAkdg
Is the smoke part of your ETOPS flight following program? :laugh:

Good luck!

 

[Green Banana]

AK will lose a lot of cash by doing battle on this one.. (at least after AAY starts the flights) This aint BLI-LAS..

A LEASED 737 that holds less than 150 Pax simply can not compete with a dirt cheap 6 million dollar OWNED 757 carrying 220. (not to mention one with RB211s and blended winglets)

What about 1st class?

If you're going to drive to BLI to avoid YVR Fares, I doubt you care about 1st class. Those canucks will just fly on an Air Canada wide body out of YVR.

You are sooo right. Alaska's little experiment from SEA-HNL competing against Hawaiians 767 and Northwest's 757 has been a total flop. Good thing they never added 17 more routes to the islands.

 

[Dix-Bag]

I guess we'll see... I'm not routing against AS or anything.. I was just stating the economics of it seem illogical to me, but that's why I'm just driving the bus!

I have a few good friends at AS and have nothing against AS at all..

Not trying to start a pissing contest... Shoot, bring on the competition in my opinion. More competition = more money to be made.. YVR seems to be an endless pool...

Plus, this means more commuting options for all of us!

 

[Dix-Bag]

I wouldn't be so quick to bet on that.
-If AS bleeds cash on the route, I'm betting AAY will be too, and in that department AS has a lot more staying power.
-While you may be able to carry more passengers, you will also need to be able to fill the seats. It's much easier to fill 160 seats than 220.
-The 757 has a higher fuel burn that the -800.
-AS has a loyal following in the PNW with their mileage plan and B of A Visa card.
-Our -800's are newer and therefore have better reliability.

Are these the RB211's you are bragging about?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DfTX-IAkdg
Is the smoke part of your ETOPS flight following program? :laugh:

Good luck!

LOL about the RB211s..

Burn and whatnot in itself is irrelevant as standalone data, so the real key
to comparing the AAY 757 and AS 737 would come down to RSMs and all those mystery numbers.. I don't have that data, so my opinion is based on assumption...

I doubt anyone will BLEED CASH because I bet the route itself will be highly successful. I think it's going to come down to who is willing to offer the cheapest seats, and under every scenario I can imagine, I just think AAY will be able to make more money off of a cheaper ticket.

The cheap aircraft acquisition cost is the key factor in most of the equations... I don't know what a new 737-800 sells or leases for, but I'd be willing to bet that it's 3-5 times more than AAY paid for these 757s. That alone is why AAY can make more money (I think) and attract more business with very very low fares.

AAY definitely pisses our customers off regularly with regard to lack of amenities and reliability delays.. No doubt, but AAY passengers don't have loyalty, they simply fly on whoever is cheapest. Hell, I'd be surprised if 50% of our customer base could qualify for the B of A credit card! Think of it like carpooling to work with a schmuck! It sucks but it beats a car payment!

My point with the RB211s and blended winglets was just a capability point. From what I've read about this, the 757-200 with this engine configuration and the blended winglets is a 3800-3900 NM airplane. In other words no worries about takeoff performance @ Max capacity. Plus a faster long range cruise speed and the added room for revenue, I would think makes this aircraft more of a moneymaker (even disregarding the ever important factor that a 757-200 now sells for 5-6 mil a piece)

Thats all

 

[gutshotdraw]

Interesting reading on this topic:

http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/post/2010/08/alaska-airlines-allegiant-hawaii-bellingham/104076/1

 

[Green Banana]

I don't have that data, so my opinion is based on assumption...

The cheap aircraft acquisition cost is the key factor in most of the equations... I don't know what a new 737-800 sells or leases for, but I'd be willing to bet that it's 3-5 times more than AAY paid for these 757s. That alone is why AAY can make more money (I think) and attract more business with very very low fares.

The 757 is not all that it is cracked up to be. If it was so great, why did Boeing stop making it? O'ya the 737-800/900 replaced it! ALK is paying cash for a new, fuel efficient, Eco Van. Allegiant is buying someone's old 1975 yellow school bus. Yes you got it for cheaper but what about the operating costs over the next decade? Tt holds more seats, but if the market only supports 150 seats, not 250, that is 100 empty seats you are hauling for nothing. It is all about the right tool for the job.

 

[Dix-Bag]

The Mad Dogs haven't been produced in years... The 737; even the 717 is a far better product.. Still, one of the big reasons for Allegiant's success is because of the MD's ultra-low entry cost. It's benefit eclipses even maintenance and fuel burn shortcomings of the tired jet.

Your theory about filling the plane is irrelevant on this type of run.. I'd buy it if you were talking about some EAS run from FMN to ABQ, but US Mainland-Hawaii is a milk run. Even out of a tertiary market like BLI. If you can fill 160 seats for $400.00 a seat, you can fill 220 for $320.00.

This is a leisure market my friend and the game has changed forever in this demographic. Like it or not, that's how it is now and there's money in running a used 1975 yellow school bus (in new paint). AAY isn't extremely successful because of bad decisions. AS has tried to mimic these decisions, but there is a big difference between AS and G4 with regard to cost structure and operating policies... It's not about JUST the city pairing; It's about the city pairing AND the right kind of operation...

And IMO, the 757 IS the right tool for the job.

 

[Green Banana]

Mainland-Hawaii is a milk run.

Really? I am not sure ATA and Aloha would agree with you.

Many have tried what allegiant is doing and most have failed. Time will tell.

The FAA is very touchy about giving ETOPS certification to a carrier. They do take past performance, aircraft age and maintenance into account. I also hope you have better maintenance on the 757 than your MD's. You know there is no place to go if one catches on fire, right?

 

[Dix-Bag]

Let me re-phase... It CAN be a milk run if done properly...

Time will tell...

No argument there RE: ETOPS.. I think the company is smoking crack if they think they're gonna have it by spring.. Most of us here do...

It's going to take a miracle IMO... But, that's a good thing for me... One of the reasons I'm bidding it is because I am counting on a year or more of sitting around

 

[CGHercster]

Call it the... aLLeGIANT affect.

 

[igneousy2]

The argument that allegiant has an advantage because of acquisition cost of airplanes is not true in this case. It may have been true if Allegiant was certifying their mad-dogs for ETOPS. Allegiant is acquiring a whole new type, complete with the extra crew, mx, and training cost just to fly to Hawaii. Alaska is adding an extra turn using an airplane, crew, and certification that it already has...during a time of day that the airplane would have been mostly sitting anyway. It looks to me that Alaska has the advantage on startup costs on this one.
Additionally, MD80's are dirt cheap. 757's are not.


Many successful airlines have been ruined by Hawaii...Mostly by prematurely running out and buying bigger airplanes.

 

[BEECH-SLAPPED]

Really? I am not sure ATA and Aloha would agree with you.

Many have tried what allegiant is doing and most have failed. Time will tell.

The FAA is very touchy about giving ETOPS certification to a carrier. They do take past performance, aircraft age and maintenance into account. I also hope you have better maintenance on the 757 than your MD's. You know there is no place to go if one catches on fire, right?

As an Alaska pilot, you're seriously berating our MD-80 maintenance? Wow, short memory.

Save your breath, Dix. They don't understand the how this company works. Let's just see how it plays out. If it doesn't make money, there are a gazillion other places to put a 757. We won't keep an unprofitable route just so we can tell everyone we go there. Market share is not important, profitability is. That article is funny because it makes it seem like Alaska put that BLI-LAS route there the day after we started it. The truth is that we had been doing it for years before they jumped on the bandwagon.

 

[Ameriagle]

Selling cheap tickets doesn't make AS a LCC! AAY can sell cheap ticket's because they ARE a LCC! I will argue that AS would have been in the BLI market, offering point to point service, long ago if there was large profit's in it for them! That's not to say AS isn't making money or can't make money flying point to point from BLI, the question is more likely, is it the best utilization of their resources? The more likely scenario is AS is playing defense in the BLI market having seen a good chunk of that loyal PNW customer base siphoned off by AAY.

It's also a naive assumption to think AAY doesn't have the staying power to compete long term with AS in a market such as BLI. Proof is Northwest's experiment with point to point service in places like FAR, DSM, and FSD serveral years back. AAY may lack AS's pedigree but they have built a hugely profitable business in cities like BLI.

 

[Ameriagle]

The argument that allegiant has an advantage because of acquisition cost of airplanes is not true in this case. It may have been true if Allegiant was certifying their mad-dogs for ETOPS. Allegiant is acquiring a whole new type, complete with the extra crew, mx, and training cost just to fly to Hawaii. Alaska is adding an extra turn using an airplane, crew, and certification that it already has...during a time of day that the airplane would have been mostly sitting anyway. It looks to me that Alaska has the advantage on startup costs on this one.
Additionally, MD80's are dirt cheap. 757's are not.


Many successful airlines have been ruined by Hawaii...Mostly by prematurely running out and buying bigger airplanes.

I'm pretty sure Boeing sold AS that 737, it does cost money to operate it, and it's likely it cost AS some cash to jump through the ETOPS hoops as well. You are right though, it will not be a cheap endevour.

 

[pilotpm]

Are these the RB211's you are bragging about?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DfTX-IAkdg
Is the smoke part of your ETOPS flight following program? :laugh:

Having flown the L1011 (your video), the 757 and the 737 I can say with authority, I miss the L1011. It was fun to fly out of someplace not used to the TriStar and the tower asking if we needed the fire trucks. The 757 with the same engine did not smoke like that and was a thousand times better than the 737 at doing Hawaii flying in comfort and range. I have no dog in this fight but All things being equal I'll take a 757 to HI over a 737. But of course we all know things will not be equal.